Royal Roles & Titles for the Spouses of Victoria, Carl Philip & Madeleine

[Huddo]

I was just wondering what would Madelines title would be after she marries would she keep her HRH tile or would it be dropped like what happened to Martha Louise of Norway?.....also would Carl Philips wife be a princess of Sweden or Duchess of ???????

 

[purple_platinum]

I personally hope they would not adopted the norwegian way of title after marriage, especially when Sweden already adopted equal-gender rules.

I would hope they adopted the Spanish or Belgian way of title after-marriage. if this is the case :
- Crown Princess Victoria's husband would of course become Prince Consort & Duke of Vastergotland
- Prince Carl Philip would still be HRH and his wife will be HRH Princess of Sweden, Duchess of Varmland
- Princess Madeleine would still have her HRH, and her husband will be Duke of Halsingland & Gastrikland

but, (i really hope not), if they prefer the norwegian way, then Madeleine would be Princess without HRH, and her husband would not have title.
then again, looking at precedence, the King's sisters are still pirincesses, but do they still be HRH or not? (i'm not sure...)
however, that all happened before sweden have equal-rule of gender, right?

 

[Yennie]

I personally hope they would not adopted the norwegian way of title after marriage, especially when Sweden already adopted equal-gender rules.

I would hope they adopted the Spanish or Belgian way of title after-marriage. if this is the case :
- Crown Princess Victoria's husband would of course become Prince Consort & Duke of Vastergotland
- Prince Carl Philip would still be HRH and his wife will be HRH Princess of Sweden, Duchess of Varmland
- Princess Madeleine would still have her HRH, and her husband will be Duke of Halsingland & Gastrikland

but, (i really hope not), if they prefer the norwegian way, then Madeleine would be Princess without HRH, and her husband would not have title.
then again, looking at precedence, the King's sister are still HRH, but do they still be HRH or not? (i'm not sure...)
however, that all happened before sweden have equal-rule of gender, right?

the kings sisters are not HRH and not even "real princesses", its only Birgitta who married a noble man who still has a title,

Princess Christina said in an interview that her grandfather decided that they should keep the "princess" part, but only as a part of their name. It doesnt really mean anything. Its a part of their name like "Princess Christina, Mrs Magnusson".
Birgitta on the orher hand is mentioned as "princess Birgitta"
look here: http://www.royalcourt.se/kungafamiljen/attenbernadotteslakttrad.4.19ae4931022afdcff3800010665.html

 

[purple_platinum]

On this page

Meet the Royal Family
The Swedish Royal Family consists of King Carl XVI Gustaf, born 1946, Queen Silvia, born 1943, Crown Princess Victoria, born 1977, Prince Carl Philip, born 1979, and Princess Madeleine, born 1982.
In addition to the members of the Royal Family, the Swedish Royal Court also includes Princess Lilian, born 1915, and Princess Birgitta, born 1937, married to Prince Johann Georg of Hohenzollern.

So, the only one who's still a princess and member of royal family is Princess Birgitta? that's quite weird considering Princess Cristina represents Swedish RF more than Birgitta, right?

 

[Daneborn]

I agree it can seem odd since Princess Christina often is seen at official events, like the Nobel prize awards.

Christina, Margaretha and Desiree all married below their rank, and seen in the light of the 1960's it was only natural they lost their HRH title.

I believe it was a new and, in those days, slightly radical style that was adapted, to keep calling them Princess, but as a part of their name, like Princess Christina Mrs. Magnuson.

We can all have our opinion about that, but bare in mind it happened in the 1960's and it is 40 - 50 years ago.

It has been common practice in Sweden to name male royal siblings, who lost the right to the throne, with the Bernadotte surname. I believe a similiar style is unknown in Denmark and Norway.

In times of equality Carl Philip and Madeleine will lose their titles but will be given the option to keep the Prince / Princess name. It will be Prince Carl Philip Bernadotte and Princess Madeleine Bernadotte, or Princess Madeleine Mrs. Bergström (or whatever).

For me it's ok if those two lose the HRH or HH when they marry a commoner. (Of course, Victoria, as the crown princess, promotes her commoner to the HRH level.)

the Norwegians recently adapted their own (contemporary ?) style with Princess Märtha Louise. I believe she doesn't have a surname (Mrs. Behn) only the Princess Märtha Louise name.

The only thing about titles I really dislike is poor prince Sverre of Norway who isn't even a HRH or HH at birth. I find that outrageous. What if he marries a HRH princess from another country ?? It could get really confusing. It's not that hard to strip him from the HH when he's a grown up and we (hopefully) know if Ingrid Alexandra will live, marry, get children and so on. It's a bit too premature to dish him out of the royal titles.

When the Danish court took in Princess Alexandra in 1995 and made her a HRH I believe it was made also in the light that we couldn't be 100% sure if Frederik ever would marry and get children. I know she lost the middle R at the divorce. She will lose the HH and princess thing if she remarries.

I believe the Danes strip the descendants of a HRH from their letters one by one, first making the children HH, then the children's children nothing at all, like Joachim's and Benedikte's children.

It's difficult to execute a certain policy without exceptions, but I sense a kind of common sense behind it all.

 

[norwegianne]

It has been common practice in Sweden to name male royal siblings, who lost the right to the throne, with the Bernadotte surname. I believe a similiar style is unknown in Denmark and Norway.

The equivalent in Denmark would be "Greve af Rosenborg" or "Count of Rosenborg."

 

[GrandDuchess]

I think this question is quite impossible to answer at this stage. What will happen when Prince Carl Philip and Princess Madeleine marry will be totally up to how they want their futures to be, and it's totally in the discretion of the King to decide upon any titles.

When it comes to King Carl Gustaf's sisters, we can't really compare the situation that will occur in our days to what happened back then. The King's sisters married in a totally different time when the old way of the Swedish monarchy still ruled, with old fashioned laws and Court traditions in place. Margaretha, Birgitta, Désirée and Christina didn't even have succession rights, but lived in a world were males were the only ones who could succeed to the throne and they were expected to marry equally (which only one ended up doing in the end).

Of the King's sister, Birgitta is the only one who is still a HRH since she is the only one who married equally through her marriage with Prince Johann Georg of Hohenzollern. She is a member of the Royal House and a Princess of Hohenzollern, Princess of Sweden, and is the only one of the sisters who is still featured in Statskalendern (translates to something like "Book of State" or "Calendar/Almanach of State") and Hovkalendern (translates so something like "Book of Court" or "Calendar/Almanach of Court").

HH is not a title which occurs in (royal) Sweden, and I doubt it will be introduced either.

 

[purple_platinum]

thank you for the explanation, GrandDuchess!

the rules back then when the king's sisters' married is different to nowadays. so, there's really no precedence to look for. we can only wait what will happen to Carl Philip & Madeleine when they eventually get married...

 

[Furienna]

the kings sisters are not HRH and not even "real princesses", its only Birgitta who married a noble man who still has a title.

Actually, Desirée still has a title. She's now Princess Desirée, Baroness Silverschiöld. And Birgitta didn't marry a noble man, she married a prince.

 

[grevinnan]

I believe Christina is Princess Christina, Mrs Magnusson.

 

[Furienna]

That's true. And we also have a Princess Margareta, Mrs Ambler.

 

[Yennie]

But princess Christina herself once said that the "princess" part was just a part of their name and not really a meaning or a title. Apparently it was her grandfather who came up with the idea so that she and her sisters still could be adressed the same after their weddings.
Perhaps it only meant she lost her right to the throne as she married a commoner...?

Its been a while since a watched the programme, its was a interview from her 60th birthday, so I´m not sure of her exact words... perhaps someone else know for sure?

on the royal family tree Christina, Desiree and Margaretha is refered to as "Princess X, Mrs X" while Birgitta only has the princess title
http://www.royalcourt.se/theroyalfamily/thebernadottedynasty.4.19fe5e61065eb9aeea80003042.html

 

[Empress]

Well, I think that equality is a great thing. But if the royals allow titles to be passed on a permanent basis from mothers to children instead of the age old way of through the fathers, the royal families are going to be ENORMOUS! Maybe there is a wayt o do it so that the women keep their titles.styles/ranks when they marry someone of lower rank, but that it does not pass to their children, and is only theirs for their lifetime?

It's not really the same as for us "normal people!"

 

[Yennie]

I think that is the case in Sweden. The children of "Hagaprinsessorna" does not have a royal title. For example the children of princess Christina and Tord Magnusson is known only as Gustav, Oscar and Victor Magnusson

 

[magnik]

Also the other sisters of the King are known as princesses, but they are referred to in a specific manner, and never actually called Princess of Sweden, nor styled Royal Highnesses. The reason for this is their marriage to non-royal persons, which was not permitted at the time. Whereas their male relatives in the same situation had been stripped of all royal titles (see Bernadotte af Wisborg), the case of the princesses was substantially different, as females were then not entitled to succession at all, and so they were allowed to keep the pre-nominal "Princess" as a mere honorific.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Royal_Family

I don't remember where but I read that Margaretha and Desiree has HE (Her Eminence).

 

[avrilo]

Couldnt it be like in Spain. The infantas are still "su alteza real" (hrh) after their marriages¿. Or in Denmark Prince Joachim and the Queen´s sisters remain as hrh¿

I dont understand well what is that lower rank. Did Prince Joachim elevated Alexandra´s rank¿ or Cristina Iñaki´s rank¿

 

[Yennie]

Couldnt it be like in Spain. The infantas are still "su alteza real" (hrh) after their marriages¿. Or in Denmark Prince Joachim and the Queen´s sisters remain as hrh¿

I dont understand well what is that lower rank. Did Prince Joachim elevated Alexandra´s rank¿ or Cristina Iñaki´s rank¿

they are not hrh (like they were before) after they got married but they still are princesses... its all a little confusing

 

[avrilo]

they are not hrh (like they were before) after they got married but they still are princesses... its all a little confusing

Yes they are!. I checked it on their official websites :S

 

[Yennie]

Yes they are!. I checked it on their official websites :S

I dont think so, then why are Birgitta called princess Birgitta and her sisters princess Christina, Mrs Magnusson and so on. It has to has something to do with the title?!
Christina, Margareta and Desiree are not members of the royal house (is that the correct name in english?) either. But they are ofcourse still a part of the royal family

here is what it says on Wikipedia;
Nära kungafamiljen finns också kungens resterande systrar, dessa räknas dock inte till Kungl .Huset, utan är endast medlemmar av släkten Bernadotte. Dessa systrar gifte sig alla med icke-kungliga personer, och på den tiden var situationen mycket prekär då kvinnliga kungligheter inte ens hade rätt att vara med i successionen till kronan, och förlorade därmed sina kungliga titlar. Samtliga har dock tilldelats personliga, icke-ärftliga, prinsesstitlar

 

[Stefan]

I dont think so, then why are Birgitta called princess Birgitta and her sisters princess Christina, Mrs Magnusson and so on. It has to has something to do with the title?!
Christina, Margareta and Desiree are not members of the royal house (is that the correct name in english?) either. But they are ofcourse still a part of the royal family

here is what it says on Wikipedia;
Nära kungafamiljen finns också kungens resterande systrar, dessa räknas dock inte till Kungl .Huset, utan är endast medlemmar av släkten Bernadotte. Dessa systrar gifte sig alla med icke-kungliga personer, och på den tiden var situationen mycket prekär då kvinnliga kungligheter inte ens hade rätt att vara med i successionen till kronan, och förlorade därmed sina kungliga titlar. Samtliga har dock tilldelats personliga, icke-ärftliga, prinsesstitlar

I think it has to with the fact that no one of the swedish princesses had succession rights when the married. Birgitta keept the HRH as she married according to her rank.

As for the spanish Infantas the are still HRH and have keept their place in the line of succession.
Märtha Louise's loss of the HRH had nothing to with her marriage she rennounced it because of her business and this was on 01.02.2002 thee months before her marriage.

 

[avrilo]

I dont think so, then why are Birgitta called princess Birgitta and her sisters princess Christina, Mrs Magnusson and so on. It has to has something to do with the title?!
Christina, Margareta and Desiree are not members of the royal house (is that the correct name in english?) either. But they are ofcourse still a part of the royal family

here is what it says on Wikipedia;
Nära kungafamiljen finns också kungens resterande systrar, dessa räknas dock inte till Kungl .Huset, utan är endast medlemmar av släkten Bernadotte. Dessa systrar gifte sig alla med icke-kungliga personer, och på den tiden var situationen mycket prekär då kvinnliga kungligheter inte ens hade rätt att vara med i successionen till kronan, och förlorade därmed sina kungliga titlar. Samtliga har dock tilldelats personliga, icke-ärftliga, prinsesstitlar

I was talking about Cristina, Elena and Joachim . I was asking if it couldn´t be like in Spain and in Denmark

 

[Yennie]

I was talking about Cristina, Elena and Joachim . I was asking if it couldn´t be like in Spain and in Denmark

ok, that explains alot

 

[Furienna]

here is what it says on Wikipedia;
Nära kungafamiljen finns också kungens resterande systrar, dessa räknas dock inte till Kungl .Huset, utan är endast medlemmar av släkten Bernadotte. Dessa systrar gifte sig alla med icke-kungliga personer, och på den tiden var situationen mycket prekär då kvinnliga kungligheter inte ens hade rätt att vara med i successionen till kronan, och förlorade därmed sina kungliga titlar. Samtliga har dock tilldelats personliga, icke-ärftliga, prinsesstitlar

But that's incorrect. Birgitta got married to a prince of Hohenzollern, so she actually made an equal marriage. But she was the only one of five siblings to do so.

 

[Yennie]

But that's incorrect. Birgitta got married to a prince of Hohenzollern, so she actually made an equal marriage. But she was the only one of five siblings to do so.

The text is referring to the other three sisters; Nära kungafamiljen finns också kungens resterande systrar.

Princess Birgitta is the only "real" princess, the other ones have the "princess" only as a part of their name and the title cannot be passed on

 

[norwegianne]

I was talking about Cristina, Elena and Joachim . I was asking if it couldn´t be like in Spain and in Denmark

The situation in Denmark and Sweden is quite similar, actually - to those in the same situation. Carl Philip & Joachim are in the same situation, title-wise. Women take their husband's titles, after all. If either Carl Philip or Joachim married without the monarch's permission, they would be "degraded", if I've understood correctly - Carl Philip to Count Bernadotte and Joachim to Count of Rosenborg.

The situation with Princess Benedikte, who is still HRH, is the same as Princess Birgitta - both of whom married German princes. (So-called equal marriages.)

The "Princess X, Mrs. Y" pattern set up in Sweden, seems similar to the one King Haakon of Norway set up for his granddaughters, when Ragnhild got married in 1953.

 

[davo]

title after marriage - what is possible for the king to grant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by avrilo
"I was talking about Cristina, Elena and Joachim . I was asking if it couldn´t be like in Spain and in Denmark"

"The situation in Denmark and Sweden is quite similar, actually - to those in the same situation. Carl Philip & Joachim are in the same situation, title-wise. Women take their husband's titles, after all. If either Carl Philip or Joachim married without the monarch's permission, they would be "degraded", if I've understood correctly - Carl Philip to Count Bernadotte and Joachim to Count of Rosenborg. "

Actually, if HKH Prince Carl Philip, Duke of Värmland entered into an unapproved marriage he's become Mr Carl Philip Edmund Bertil Bernadotte. HM King Carl XVI Gustav doesn't have the power to create noble titles and therefore can not make his son Count Bernadotte of Wisborg. This title is actually a Luxembourgian County title.

However I'm not sure whether HM can make any of his children that make unapproved marriages Prince/ss Bernadotte, like HM King Oscar II made his second son Oscar Prince Bernadotte upon his unequal marriage. Note this was a personal title only, shared by Prince Oscar and his wife. Until the creation of the luxembourg title a few years later their children were plain Master/Miss <blank> Bernadotte. Indeed this may be the way that the King may wish to go in this situation for unapproved marriages, retaining a personal title for his children and then no title for grand children. It's very similar to his three sisters.

I personally think that the best way would be an adaptation of the Danish and British systems. Have the children of the monarch as HRH (and,regardless of gender, their spouses), but the grandchildren of those other than the heir HH (again with their spouse sharing their title) and then their children no title. A gradual dropping of titles over the generations.

 

[davo]

varying consequenses of unequal/unapproved marriage - who kept what and why?

Following on from my post above I think it's interesting to reflect on those that made unequal and/or unapproved marriages. (They seem to be different things.)

Looking at the examples...

The first was HKH Prince Oscar, Duke of Gotland was made Prince Bernadotte (personal style) upon his unequal marriage in 1888, then in 1892, he was given the hereditary title Count of Wisborg by his uncle Grand Duke Adolphe of Luxembourg. Prince Bernadotte kept the Seraphim and all his Swedish orders. (I assume that the marriage must have had some level of approval for him to retain these and be made Prince Bernadotte.)

Next was Prince Lennart, Duke of Småland who by his unequal and unapproved marriage on March 11, 1932 he was subsequentially stripped of his title and became Mr. Lennart Bernadotte. (He was stripped of the Seraphim and all of his Swedish orders on the same day as his cousin Sigvard lost his.)

Two years later Prince Sigvard, Duke of Uppland married commoner Erica Patzek and because it was an unequal match for a Swedish Prince, whether or not having acquired consent for the marriage from the monarch, he lost his titles (and orders) and became Mr Sigvard Bernadotte.

In 1937, Prince Carl, Duke of Östergötland married Countess Elsa von Rosen and relinquish his succession rights and his royal titles due to his unequal marriage. His brother-in-law King Léopold III of the Belgians conferred upon him the title Prince Bernadotte in the Belgian nobility on the same day as the wedding (with the right to the title of Count or Countess for his male-line descendants). Prince Carl must have had some sort off apprival for his marraige as he also kept all his Swedish orders upon his marriage (he would eventually be stripped on them by King Gustaf VI Adolf in 1961 over the scandal known as "The Huseby affair").

Then in 1946 Prince Carl Johan, Duke of Dalarna made an unequal and unapproved marriage, losing all his titles, the Seraphim and his orders.

Messers Lennart, Sigvard and Carl Johan Bernadotte were all created hereditary Counts af Wisborg by Grand Duchess Charlotte of Luxembourg on July 2, 1951. All three were also readmitted back to the Grand Cross of the Order of the Polar Star (but not the Seraphim or the Sword ) in 1952 (the same year their brother Prince Bertil was given the Grand Cross of the Vasa, the fourth Swedish Order).

The current King's four sister were never held succession rights. All recevied the Seraphim when it was opened to women on 22 March 1952 (that year again! Gustaf VI Adolf certainly honoured his family that year!).

Three of them ( Princess Margaretha, Princess Désirée & Princess Christina) made unequal marriages and lost their HKH status, but retained the seraphim. Their husband would all be made commanders (rank 2) of the order of the vasa.

The fourth Princess Birgitta of Sweden made an equal marriage to HSH Johann Georg, Prince of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (who, with his elder brother Prince Friedrich, were given the Seraphim two days before the wedding).

It's interesting that those who's marriage has some form of approval - if still unequal - retain the seraphim, but those who made both unequal and unapproved unions were stripped of it and their other orders.

 

[sara1981]

IF CP Victoria would lose as right succession of Crown Princess will given to Prince Carl Phillip or Princess Madeline because she dating commoner or King would give CP Victoria to become Queen of Sweden one days or not i dont know we have wait and see what happened when Victoria got married one days

 

[Warren]

Well, the King married a commoner, so he would hardly disqualify his eldest daughter for doing the same thing!

 

[Furienna]

It's interesting that those who's marriage has some form of approval - if still unequal - retain the seraphim, but those who made both unequal and unapproved unions were stripped of it and their other orders.

The approved marriages seem to have been to aristocratic women, who even though they weren't princesses still weren't complete commoners. The unapproved marriages were to "complete commoners".

Well, the King married a commoner, so he would hardly disqualify his eldest daughter for doing the same thing!

I have to agree with this. Also, it's a different time now. Princes and princesses can marry any commoners without losing their titles these days.