Royal Roles & Titles for the Spouses of Victoria, Carl Philip & Madeleine

[nascarlucy]

Well then rob 2008 you wouldn't be allowed to marry into their family then as you list yourself as a commoner.

[rob2008]

Originally Posted by nascarlucy

Well then rob 2008 you wouldn't be allowed to marry into their family then as you list yourself as a commoner.

I know my place (and Madeleine is very sweet).

[HRHofNothing]

Originally Posted by Kotroman

I think that the future Duchess of Värmland and Duke of Hälsingland and Gästrikland should both get the Swedish princely titles because wives of princes are naturally princesses and husbands of princesses should become princes because of equal primogeniture.

Never Happen.

In this day and age all RF's are trying to control the size of the Royal House by controlling who gets a HRH. If Jonas had married Madeline, he would surely have not become an HRH and neither would have any children from the union. I think the same will hold true for Madeline's future spouse. A wife of Carl-Philip will definitely become a HRH but their children would probably have to settle for a HH (like Joachim's children in Denmark). Victoria's children will probably be the only ones with the HRH.

[rob2008]

I think the opposite should apply.

If daughters can now precede sons in inheritance then a further result of the feminist movement has to be that Princes of the blood should not give their status and title to spouses. If you give every spouse a title then there is no distinction and you end up with title inflation. Anyway marrying someone doesnt take skill that needs to be recognised.

[Esmerelda]

We now know that Madeleine's husband will be a Duke. As for Carl Philip's wife, she'll be a Princess or a Duchess (or nothing if he marries someone absolutely outrageous, a convicted murderer, say and Madeleine would also lose her title if she does that). I guess we'll have to wait till he gets engaged to see. If Jonas could keep his job, I don't see why Carl Philip's wife wouldn't be able to. She might prefer to do royal duties, of course.

As for the children, I don't know if the ducal titles are/would become hereditary. I wouldn't be that surprised if Carl Philip's children weren't Princes and Princesses since in Holland, the children of Queen Beatrix's younger sons are Counts/Countesses. They might follow the norwegian model where only Victoria's oldest child will be HRH and her other children HH (like Ingrid Alexandra and Sverre Magnus). Everyone seems to be 'downsizing'.

[Leslie2006]

I think Carl Philip's future wife would be a Princess as well as a Duchess. Princess X of Sweden, Duchess of Varmland - similar to that of Prince Daniel's title, it being the male equivalent of Victoria's. As for children, they would probably simply be Prince/ss X of Sweden, and the eldest, particularly the child of Victoria and Daniel would probably be given a ducal title at birth; as for the rest of them, I've no idea. For Carl Philip and Madeleine's children, they would be just Prince/ss X of Sweden.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Esmerelda

We now know that Madeleine's husband will be a Duke. As for Carl Philip's wife, she'll be a Princess or a Duchess (or nothing if he marries someone absolutely outrageous, a convicted murderer, say and Madeleine would also lose her title if she does that). I guess we'll have to wait till he gets engaged to see. If Jonas could keep his job, I don't see why Carl Philip's wife wouldn't be able to. She might prefer to do royal duties, of course.

As for the children, I don't know if the ducal titles are/would become hereditary. I wouldn't be that surprised if Carl Philip's children weren't Princes and Princesses since in Holland, the children of Queen Beatrix's younger sons are Counts/Countesses. They might follow the norwegian model where only Victoria's oldest child will be HRH and her other children HH (like Ingrid Alexandra and Sverre Magnus). Everyone seems to be 'downsizing'.

Most likely a future wife of Carl Philip will be HRH Princess of Seden, Duchess of Värmland. As for this ducal title he can not be inherited by any of the children as the swedish ducal titles are personal. As for children we will have to wait and see. In the past children of Princess all became HRH Prince/Princess and the sons also an ducal title. The problem is that Carl Gustaf can not create noble titles so he can not give them another new title like it was done in the Netherlands for Constantijn's and Friso's chidlren. He can only regulate the titles of the members of the Royal House.

[Esmerelda]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Most likely a future wife of Carl Philip will be HRH Princess of Seden, Duchess of Värmland. As for this ducal title he can not be inherited by any of the children as the swedish ducal titles are personal. As for children we will have to wait and see. In the past children of Princess all became HRH Prince/Princess and the sons also an ducal title. The problem is that Carl Gustaf can not create noble titles so he can not give them another new title like it was done in the Netherlands for Constantijn's and Friso's chidlren. He can only regulate the titles of the members of the Royal House.

He gave his children ducal titles didn't he? Or were they from the government?

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Esmerelda

He gave his children ducal titles didn't he? Or were they from the government?

Yes the King gave these one to hem. These are the only on he is allowed to give and they are personal and can not be inherited.

[janb]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Yes trhe King gave these one to hem. These are the only on ehe is allowed to give and they are personal and can not be inherited.

And can only be given to members of the Royal House. Ducal titles in Sweden are just for the Royal House and are no longer heridary*.

*They used to be but the first tries (in the 13th and 16th century) all ended with only one of the old kings son's surviving, his brothers sons dead, in exile or in custody of the new king (and without ducal title) and the country in a less than pristine condition (like after a Civil war). So Sweden no longer make the Ducal titles hereditary it also stopped giving out actual Dukedoms (iow Dukedoms where the Duke\Duchess actually hold some kind of power).

[Furienna]

Hmm... That is true. I've never heard of a Swedish prince or princess inheriting a ducal title. Instead, all princes have been given a ducal title of his own at birth. (Princesses only were granted this starting with Victoria and Madeleine, the current king's daughters).

[Josefine]

Its fun to real the se old threads what members thought then and how it is now

[Tatiana Maria]

Prins Carl Philip och Prins Daniel på Idrottsgalan - Sveriges Kungahus

Prins Carl Philip och Prins Daniel på Idrottsgalan

Prins Carl Philips prisutdelning sändes från Kungliga slottet och Prins Daniels från Haga slott. Foto: Victor Ericsson och Sara Friberg/Kungl. Hovstaterna

Måndagen den 18 januari medverkade Prins Carl Philip och Prins Daniel vid Idrottsgalan.

It has always been nonsensical in terms of European orders of precedence that Prince Daniel has continually had to give way to Prince Carl Philip. But following the announcement in 2019 that Prince Carl Philip and Princess Madeleine's official assignments would decrease in the future and the focus would shift to the King Couple and Crown Princess Couple, it has become even more absurd that it the King still insists on "Prince Carl Philip and Prince Daniel" rather than "Prince Daniel and Prince Carl Philip".

King Juan Carlos I of Spain was said to be in a similar position of not getting along with the spouse of his heir. But, as far as I know, King Juan Carlos put his supposed feelings to the side and awarded the then-Princess of Asturias the precedence that was due to her as the wife of the heir to the throne. Unlike Prince Daniel, Princess Letizia never was relegated to walking or standing behind Infanta Elena, awarded lower honors than Infanta Elena, or had her name placed after Infanta Elena's in official guestlists and communiqués.

The King would do well to reflect and look to the example of his former Spanish colleague.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by LadyFinn

The Swedish Committee of the Constitution also sees that the flag days only apply to the birthday and name day of the Head of state and heir to the throne. This would, in turn, mean that, for example, Prince Daniel can not get a raised flag when he turns years.

https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/kun...kungafamiljen/

Originally Posted by Mbruno

I don't know about the specific issue of flag days, but there is an obvious difference between Silvia and Daniel in the sense that Silvia is the Queen of Sweden (Sveriges Drottning) and styled Majesty, whereas Daniel, even when Victoria is Queen, will probably be only a Prince and a Royal Highness (at best, he will be given a title of Prince Consort like Prince Henrik of Denmark).

That is not a peculiarity of Sweden, but applies to all European kingdoms in their unequal treatment of make and female spouses of monarchs.

Originally Posted by JR76

the point with the proposed new Swedish law regulating the use, both official and private, of flags is that when the next monarch ascends to the throne the flag days will be limited to the monarch and the heir only. It has nothing to do with Daniel personally, his status, his gender or his titles.

But why did Parliament not attain the same decrease in the number of royal flag days through limiting them to the monarch and the monarch's spouse only? In European royal protocol, the spouse of the monarch traditionally outranks the heir.

If it has nothing to do with Daniel, then I am unclear on why the law is not planned to have effect immediately, but rather have its effects postponed until Daniel rather than Silvia will be the consort who is affected.

In addition, the remark from Hans Ekström MP that "we ought to think about whether it is reasonable for the birthday and name day of the boy from Ockelbo to become flag days" seems to have a classist slant. Perhaps I am misconstruing Mr. Ekström, but on what other basis is it less reasonable for "a boy from Ockelbo" than a "girl from São Paulo and Heidelberg" to have her birthday become a flag day?

[MARG]

Classist indeed. Just when you think Daniel has done more than enough as the Crown Princess' husband and has, not unlike Prince Philip of the UK, carved out a niche for himself serving and representing not only the Royal Family, but the Country itself, along comes a classist snob wanting to "put him in his place" and that he is from Ocklebo means he is lesser person, a peasant no less.

With a statement such as that, anyone voting with him nails their ugly colours to the mast and one day Victoria will be Queen . . . and she and Daniel are a very obvious team, a very loving and overtly supportive co-dependant Crown Princely couple. If that little snot thinks to lower Daniel's position I don't fancy his chances.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

In addition, the remark from Hans Ekström MP that "we ought to think about whether it is reasonable for the birthday and name day of the boy from Ockelbo to become flag days" seems to have a classist slant. Perhaps I am misconstruing Mr. Ekström, but on what other basis is it less reasonable for "a boy from Ockelbo" than a "girl from São Paulo and Heidelberg" to have her birthday become a flag day?

What party does Mr. Ekström belong to? I imagine he must be far right.

[JR76]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

But why did Parliament not attain the same decrease in the number of royal flag days through limiting them to the monarch and the monarch's spouse only? In European royal protocol, the spouse of the monarch traditionally outranks the heir.

If it has nothing to do with Daniel, then I am unclear on why the law is not planned to have effect immediately, but rather have its effects postponed until Daniel rather than Silvia will be the consort who is affected.

In addition, the remark from Hans Ekström MP that "we ought to think about whether it is reasonable for the birthday and name day of the boy from Ockelbo to become flag days" seems to have a classist slant. Perhaps I am misconstruing Mr. Ekström, but on what other basis is it less reasonable for "a boy from Ockelbo" than a "girl from São Paulo and Heidelberg" to have her birthday become a flag day?

Most likely because the spouse of the monarch has no constitutional role. Regarding the change of the Flag law I think that they wait to enforce it out of respect for the Queen and to not step on the King's toes. It's worth noting that this is only one part in a big reform regarding the use of the Swedish flag and the use of flags on public buildings and places.

Originally Posted by Mbruno

What party does Mr. Ekström belong to? I imagine he must be far right.

Hans Ekström is a Social democrat. What he says about "the boy from Ockelbo" does not sound classist at all in Swedish. On the contrary the description is almost endearing.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by JR76

Hans Ekström is a Social democrat. What he says about "the boy from Ockelbo" does not sound classist at all in Swedish. On the contrary the description is almost endearing.

I guess there is a cultural misunderstanding going on here then. In other countries, e.g. in the US, it would sound very classist and snobbish to say that. In fact, a politician would probably get in trouble with the press if he/she said something similar.



I also confess I'm surprised Mr. Elskström is a Social Democrat. Again, probably a cultural misunderstanding on my part.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by JR76

Regarding the change of the Flag law I think that they wait to enforce it out of respect for the Queen and to not step on the King's toes.

I can understand that. But if enforcing the changed law for Silvia would be considered disrespectful to her and/or the King, it raises the question of why the MPs do not have the same concerns about disrespecting Daniel and/or the Crown Princess.

Originally Posted by JR76

What he says about "the boy from Ockelbo" does not sound classist at all in Swedish. On the contrary the description is almost endearing.

Thanks for clarifying Mr. Ekström's tone. Being an English speaker, my reaction was the same as that of Mbruno (and not only in the US, as he mentioned, but even in the monarchist UK, I suspect it would not sound endearing to Britons if a British MP referred to "the girl from Berkshire" while he argued that the Duchess of Cambridge should not be entitled to the same ceremonial treatment as previous consorts), so it seems this is one of those expressions which is lost in translation or cultural difference.

[JR76]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

I can understand that. But if enforcing the changed law for Silvia would be considered disrespectful to her and/or the King, it raises the question of why the MPs do not have the same concerns about disrespecting Daniel and/or the Crown Princess.

The change has to start somewhere and removing the privilege from the Queen who's had a flag day in her honour for almost 50 years is, at least to me, much more disrespectful than to not give it to someone who's never had the privilege before. I personally don't see why it's necessary to remove the privilege for the spouse of the monarch at all but I am in general behind the reform of the flag regulations.