General Swedish Royalty Facts, Discussion and Questions


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
As things stand, Princess Madeleine's children probably will not work for the monarchy because of being raised overseas. But following the precedent of the children of Prince Carl and Princess Ingeborg and the son of Prince Wilhelm, would the sons of Prince Carl Philip work for the monarchy?

Simply put, did Princesses Margaretha, Märtha, and Astrid, their brother Prince Carl, and Prince Lennart work for the monarchy up to the time of their marriages?




A related question is whether Prince Carl Philip's children will ask for the government's consent to marry or will they forefeit their succession rights (and possibly royal titles) and those of their descendants ?
 
No disrespect but I don't think using the aforementioned grandchildren of Oscar II and Gustaf V are an apt comparison / precedent. The women married foreign royals (which was typical) and the men married unequally at relatively young ages and lost their positions in the Swedish Royal Family. Furthermore we are talking about events from roughly a century ago and using them as a template for 20 plus years in the future.

The bottom line is that Carl Gustaf followed by Victoria and then Estelle will determine who the working members of the Swedish Royal Family are. Given current sensibilities it is highly doubtful that Alexander and Gabriel will be working members of the Swedish Royal Family, and on a related note, it is likely that steps will be taken to limit who has HRH / royal status.
 
No disrespect but I don't think using the aforementioned grandchildren of Oscar II and Gustaf V are an apt comparison / precedent. The women married foreign royals (which was typical) and the men married unequally at relatively young ages and lost their positions in the Swedish Royal Family.

None taken, but the question stated "up to the time of their marriages". :flowers:

Furthermore we are talking about events from roughly a century ago and using them as a template for 20 plus years in the future.
The bottom line is that Carl Gustaf followed by Victoria and then Estelle will determine who the working members of the Swedish Royal Family are. Given current sensibilities it is highly doubtful that Alexander and Gabriel will be working members of the Swedish Royal Family, and on a related note, it is likely that steps will be taken to limit who has HRH / royal status.

Perhaps, but Prince Carl Philip and his wife and children are currently treated less in line with Princess Madeleine and her husband and children, and more in line with Crown Princess Victoria and her husband and children. Current sensibilities are not the only rationale in the royal family's decisions, as shown by King Carl Gustaf's statements on equal primogeniture, for example.


I would still appreciate an answer to whether Princesses Margaretha, Märtha, and Astrid, their brother Prince Carl, and Prince Lennart worked for the monarchy up to the time of their marriages.
 
Simply put, did Princesses Margaretha, Märtha, and Astrid, their brother Prince Carl, and Prince Lennart work for the monarchy up to the time of their marriages?
Prince Lennart took part in his grandfather King Gustav V's 70th birthday celebrations in 1928 and accompanied him and the other male members of the Royal House on horse in the birthday parade through Stockholm. He also represented the Swedish Royal House in Rome at the wedding of Crown Prince Umberto and Princess Marie-José of Belgium in 1930.
Besides this and his military education he didn't do any work for the monarchy. He took part in the Ceremonial Opening of Parliament following his confirmation, but he stresses in his autobiography that he did so in the Ladies box together with the royal ladies and the children. Only when he reached his maturity would he have taken part as an adult.
Boiling it down - No, according to his autobiography Prince Lennart only officially represented the monarchy two times.
Regarding his cousins I don't know how involved they were, but I've for instance seen neither pictures nor read anything about them taking part in the Ceremonial Opening of Parliament. Princess Margareta was involved in the WWI charity work of Princess Ingeborg and Crown Princess Margaretha and much later from the sixties onwards took part in the Nobel festivities up until her death in the seventies.
Her sister's Astrid and Märtha were also involved in charity work and atleast Astrid worked for a time as a daycare assistant in a kindergarten.
 
Prince Lennart took part in his grandfather King Gustav V's 70th birthday celebrations in 1928 and accompanied him and the other male members of the Royal House on horse in the birthday parade through Stockholm. He also represented the Swedish Royal House in Rome at the wedding of Crown Prince Umberto and Princess Marie-José of Belgium in 1930.
Besides this and his military education he didn't do any work for the monarchy. He took part in the Ceremonial Opening of Parliament following his confirmation, but he stresses in his autobiography that he did so in the Ladies box together with the royal ladies and the children. Only when he reached his maturity would he have taken part as an adult.
Boiling it down - No, according to his autobiography Prince Lennart only officially represented the monarchy two times.
Regarding his cousins I don't know how involved they were, but I've for instance seen neither pictures nor read anything about them taking part in the Ceremonial Opening of Parliament. Princess Margareta was involved in the WWI charity work of Princess Ingeborg and Crown Princess Margaretha and much later from the sixties onwards took part in the Nobel festivities up until her death in the seventies.
Her sister's Astrid and Märtha were also involved in charity work and atleast Astrid worked for a time as a daycare assistant in a kindergarten.

Thanks. You have a superb depth of knowledge regarding Swedish royal history!

Do you know whether the charity work carried out by Ingeborg's daughters was regarded as official or private?
 
Thanks. You have a superb depth of knowledge regarding Swedish royal history!

Do you know whether the charity work carried out by Ingeborg's daughters was regarded as official or private?
Thanks, I'm a mere amateur, but I've read quite a few books about the Bernadottes and as luck would have it I own the two autobiographies by Lennart Bernadotte.
Although not sure I don't think there was a difference made back then between private and official duties in the way we do today. As I wrote in my earlier post Princess Margareta took an active part in her relatives charity work during WWI and there's both pictures and mentions in the media about it so I'd say that would have counted as official duties according to our modern standards. I also highly doubt that Princess Astrid received any pay for her work at the orphanage (sorry, it wasn't a kindergarten) so it would count as charity work.
 
None taken, but the question stated "up to the time of their marriages". :flowers:

<snip>

I would still appreciate an answer to whether Princesses Margaretha, Märtha, and Astrid, their brother Prince Carl, and Prince Lennart worked for the monarchy up to the time of their marriages.
I get that you specified up until the time of their marriage but I am replying that the somewhat youngish ages that the princes married was such that they weren't likely doing anything of consequence vocationally and their unequal marriages lost them their positions in the Swedish Royal Family. Even the heirs apparent and children of the monarch don't appear to have been enlisted to work for the monarchy in their early/mid-twenties. Hopefully someone with a deep knowledge of Swedish Royal history can answer your question but if it turns out that they did work for the monarch I don't see it as a relevant precedent.


ETA:
I see that you did get a reply to your question.

Perhaps, but Prince Carl Philip and his wife and children are currently treated less in line with Princess Madeleine and her husband and children, and more in line with Crown Princess Victoria and her husband and children. Current sensibilities are not the only rationale in the royal family's decisions, as shown by King Carl Gustaf's statements on equal primogeniture, for example.
I am not seeing that Carl Philip and his family are treated more in line with the Crown Princess Family. I think that the misalignment between the Prince and Princess Families, such that it is, is due to the Princess Family not being based in Sweden.

As far as Carl Gustaf's statements on equal primogeniture, I recall there being a comment where he disagreed with the equal primogeniture law being applied retroactively. Personally I disagree with his disagreement but I don't interpret it to mean he opposed equal primogeniture. He also supposedly said that Swedes prefer a male on the throne, which I thought was a goofy thing for someone who touted himself "of the times" to assert, but I later read that the court denied the comment, or so I recall.
 
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I get that you specified up until the time of their marriage but I am replying that the somewhat youngish ages that the princes married was such that they weren't likely doing anything of consequence vocationally and their unequal marriages lost them their positions in the Swedish Royal Family. Even the heirs apparent and children of the monarch don't appear to have been enlisted to work for the monarchy in their early/mid-twenties.

Thank you for the explanation; what you are saying becomes clear to me.

I am not seeing that Carl Philip and his family are treated more in line with the Crown Princess Family. I think that the misalignment between the Prince and Princess Families, such that it is, is due to the Princess Family not being based in Sweden.

I can see your viewpoint, however, it appears to me that even when available in Sweden the Princess Family is treated as lower in rank than the Prince Family, for instance by taking part in fewer appearances during the recent Korean visit and the births of Princess Adrienne and Prince Nicolas being communicated through press releases rather than the news conferences held for the births of Prince Gabriel and Prince Alexander.

As for comparison to the Crown Princess Family: The King bestowed the single duchy that confers the usufruct of a royal estate on Prince Alexander rather than a child of the Crown Princess Family, and in certain official appearances Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia have taken precedence over Prince Daniel.

As far as Carl Gustaf's statements on equal primogeniture, I recall there being a comment where he disagreed with the equal primogeniture law being applied retroactively. Personally I disagree with his disagreement but I don't interpret it to mean he opposed equal primogeniture. He also supposedly said that Swedes prefer a male on the throne, which I thought was a goofy thing for someone who touted himself "of the times" to assert, but I later read that the court denied the comment, or so I recall.

It is certain that King Carl XVI Gustaf stated his opposition to equal primogeniture in the 1970s and 1980s, when it already held the support of a majority of the elected members of parliament. Even the official recommendations which the Royal Court, under his leadership, put to the parliamentary commission in the 1970s called for parliament to accept the Danish and British arrangement as an alternative to equal primogeniture.

http://www.riksdagen.se/sv/Dokument...-och-skrivelser/om-kvinnlig-tronfoljd_G10371/

The King's comment in a Swedish newspaper that "I would prefer that my son Carl Philip is my successor, and I'm sure that the majority of the Swedish people would prefer to have a king on the throne" was never denied or rescinded, although after the passing of two decades the court's spokeswoman sought to dismiss the scrutiny on it.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...n-on-the-succession-laws-16647.html#post49452
 
Jewel theft, fraud and counterfeit banknotes. Riots and evil sudden death. The royal history is filled with piquant stories. And now we have collected these stories in a very unique specialty magazine. With historian Herman Lindqvist as cicerone, Svensk Damtidning takes the readers on an exciting journey in time and space, from Gustav Vasa's days and right up to our own time. With customary enthusiasm, Herman Lindqvist invites stories that are both hair-raising and fascinating.
Our 100-page specialty magazine is filled with captivating stories that last long. Here you will find classics such as the story of the murder of Gustav III, but also more unexpected stories like the one about the woman who lived well on claiming that she was Gustav IV Adolf's unknown daughter. Of course, we also tell about the tragic jewel theft that hit Princess Christina a few years ago.
Köp unikt magasin om kungliga kriminalfall _ Svensk Damtidning
 
Is there any distinction between the terms "Kungahus" and "Kungliga Huset" or between "Kungafamiljen" and "Kungliga Familjen"? A line was newly added to the "Kungafamiljen" page together with the changes in membership.


Kungafamiljen - Sveriges Kungahus


Kungafamiljen

Sveriges Kungahus tillhör ätten Bernadotte, som sedan över 200 år sitter på Sveriges tron.

Det Kungl. Huset utgörs av [...]

Den Kungl. Familjen utgörs av Kungl. Huset samt Konungens övriga barnbarn och systrar: [...]​


Surely, it doesn't mean that the family members who are not part of the Royal House don't belong to the House of Bernadotte?
 
Is there any distinction between the terms "Kungahus" and "Kungliga Huset" or between "Kungafamiljen" and "Kungliga Familjen"? A line was newly added to the "Kungafamiljen" page together with the changes in membership.


Kungafamiljen - Sveriges Kungahus


Kungafamiljen

Sveriges Kungahus tillhör ätten Bernadotte, som sedan över 200 år sitter på Sveriges tron.

Det Kungl. Huset utgörs av [...]

Den Kungl. Familjen utgörs av Kungl. Huset samt Konungens övriga barnbarn och systrar: [...]​


Surely, it doesn't mean that the family members who are not part of the Royal House don't belong to the House of Bernadotte?



It simply says that those in the royal house are members of the House of Bernadotte. Just like those who are working royals in the UK are in the house of Windsor.

Does that mean that those who are not in the royal house are not Bernadottes? No. As my critical thinking teacher would say, all Salmon are fish, but not all fish are salmon. All members of the Swedish royal house are Bernadottes, but not all Bernadottes are members of the royal house.


The distinction is simply to what we already see in the Netherlands and Spain for instance. Where there are those who are members of the 'royal house' aka working royals, and those who while members of the royal family, no longer or never did belong to the royal house. Meaning they don't officially represent the country in any real capacity.
 
Of course all of them are part of the House of Bernadotte. They are just making a line between members of the Royal House and members of the Royal Family.
 
Is there any distinction between the terms "Kungahus" and "Kungliga Huset" or between "Kungafamiljen" and "Kungliga Familjen"? A line was newly added to the "Kungafamiljen" page together with the changes in membership.


Kungafamiljen - Sveriges Kungahus


Kungafamiljen

Sveriges Kungahus tillhör ätten Bernadotte, som sedan över 200 år sitter på Sveriges tron.

Det Kungl. Huset utgörs av [...]

Den Kungl. Familjen utgörs av Kungl. Huset samt Konungens övriga barnbarn och systrar: [...]​


Surely, it doesn't mean that the family members who are not part of the Royal House don't belong to the House of Bernadotte?

At the english page the members who don't belong to the Royal House are not listed at the House of Bernadotte:
Royal Family - Sveriges Kungahus

They are members of The Bernadotte Dynasty
The Bernadotte Dynasty - Sveriges Kungahus

And at the swedish website the same thing, those who are not members of Det Kungliga Huset, are members of Ätten Bernadotte
Kungafamiljen - Sveriges Kungahus
Ätten Bernadotte, släktträd - Sveriges Kungahus
 
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Is there any distinction between the terms "Kungahus" and "Kungliga Huset" or between "Kungafamiljen" and "Kungliga Familjen"? A line was newly added to the "Kungafamiljen" page together with the changes in membership.


Kungafamiljen - Sveriges Kungahus


Kungafamiljen

Sveriges Kungahus tillhör ätten Bernadotte, som sedan över 200 år sitter på Sveriges tron.

Det Kungl. Huset utgörs av [...]

Den Kungl. Familjen utgörs av Kungl. Huset samt Konungens övriga barnbarn och systrar: [...]​


Surely, it doesn't mean that the family members who are not part of the Royal House don't belong to the House of Bernadotte?
Kungahus & Kungliga Huset means exactly the same as does Kungafamiljen & Kungliga Familjen. In both cases the former is a bit more modern and informal than the latter.
 
At the english page the members who don't belong to the Royal House are not listed at the House of Bernadotte:
Royal Family - Sveriges Kungahus

They are members of The Bernadotte Dynasty
The Bernadotte Dynasty - Sveriges Kungahus

And at the swedish website the same thing, those who are not members of Det Kungliga Huset, are members of Ätten Bernadotte
Kungafamiljen - Sveriges Kungahus
Ätten Bernadotte, släktträd - Sveriges Kungahus

Thank you for pointing this out.
The website is confusing. Doesn't House mean the same thing as Dynasty? And I have seen "ätten" be translated as "house".
 
Thank you for pointing this out.
The website is confusing. Doesn't House mean the same thing as Dynasty? And I have seen "ätten" be translated as "house".
A dynasty can consist of several houses. For instance the Capetian dynasty consists of many related houses such as Valois, Bourbon, Braganca, Orleans etc.
Ätt and house is in most cases the same, yes.
 
A dynasty can consist of several houses. For instance the Capetian dynasty consists of many related houses such as Valois, Bourbon, Braganca, Orleans etc.
Ätt and house is in most cases the same, yes.

It seems to have a different meaning to the Court since the English pages indicate that all members of the House of Bernadotte are also members of the Bernadotte Dynasty (but not vice versa), rather than the House being a branch of the Dynasty. Hopefully, it is simply a confusing translation of Det Kungliga Huset.
 
It seems to have a different meaning to the Court since the English pages indicate that all members of the House of Bernadotte are also members of the Bernadotte Dynasty (but not vice versa), rather than the House being a branch of the Dynasty. Hopefully, it is simply a confusing translation of Det Kungliga Huset.
But that's actually technically right. According to the traditional way of counting descent agnatically everyone in the House of Bernadotte are members of the Bernadotte dynasty but those members of said dynasty through cognatic descent aren't members of the House of Bernadotte.
That said I'm sure that you're right and this is just an awkward translation.
 
But that's actually technically right. According to the traditional way of counting descent agnatically everyone in the House of Bernadotte are members of the Bernadotte dynasty but those members of said dynasty through cognatic descent aren't members of the House of Bernadotte.
That said I'm sure that you're right and this is just an awkward translation.

But if the Court felt that the traditional agnatic way of counting membership of a House was the right way, it would not have counted Estelle and Oscar as members of "The House of Bernadotte" or excluded Alexander and Gabriel from the listing. I'm inclined to agree now that it is probably just an awkward translation, as The Wayback Machine shows that it was formerly translated even more confusingly as The Royal Court - perhaps the Court is not aware that the phrase Royal House is available in English as well as Swedish.
 
The classic prince consort role, that's what applies to Prince Daniel when he makes an official entrance with his wife.
He always goes three steps behind when needed and he is always sharp to how he can support Victoria in her role as a heir to the throne and future head of state.
[...]
Vi avslöjar! Prins Daniels okända sidor _ Svensk Dam

Nonetheless, Prince Daniel of Sweden for example always walks behind Crown Princess Victoria in public events.

Is this something done by the other consorts, or does it apply only to Prince Daniel? How strictly is it enforced?
 
Duchy of Södermanland Lease of Stenhammar

I made this thread separate from Prince Alexander thread because i wanted to talk about the Duchy itself and didn't want to mix it with current updates of the Prince.

Stenhammar was donated to the State by landowner and courtier Robert von Kræmer in 1903, and the will stipulates that it should be leased out to a Prince of the Royal House, preferably a Duke of Södermanland, if there is one



I think i'm in the minority when I say that I did not and do not agree when the King made Alex the duke. and i think he did it to compensate for the fact that his precious son was never to be king and so he gave alex the only duchy in sweden with an estate attached to it instead of the Crown Princess son Oscar who was born before Alex.
I for one think that the King should have made Prince Oscar the Duke of Södermanland from the beginning..
It makes even less sense now when you take into account the Kings decision to remove his 5 grandkids from the royal house and take away their HRH. How is it that Alex is still able to keep this Dukedom when he is no longer part of the royal house. When the will states that it should be leased to a prince of the royal HOUSE.
 
So i was watching this clip of Prince Gustaf Adolf's Funeral where was Princess Margaretha the oldest daughter? i saw 3 little girls come out of the car but not the oldest.
When Crown Princess Margareta died did they take out her baby or they left it in the womb. I noticed during the funeral that there was no small coffin for a little baby did they put the baby in the coffin with Margareta or they buried her with the baby still inside her stomach.
 
So i was watching this clip of Prince Gustaf Adolf's Funeral where was Princess Margaretha the oldest daughter? i saw 3 little girls come out of the car but not the oldest.
When Crown Princess Margareta died did they take out her baby or they left it in the womb. I noticed during the funeral that there was no small coffin for a little baby did they put the baby in the coffin with Margareta or they buried her with the baby still inside her stomach.

Princess Margaretha attended at her father's funeral with princesses Birgitta and Désirée. Princess Christina was then only 3,5 years old and didn't attend, she was at Haga Palace with prince Carl Gustaf.
 
There have not actually been sixteen kings of Sweden named Carl/Charles. The numeral is a continuation of a tradition inspired by fantasy kings created by 16th century writer Johannes Magnus.
 
In what year did the Royal Family of Sweden stop having a yacht?
 
In what year did the Royal Family of Sweden stop having a yacht?
To my knowledge they never had an official yacht like their relatives in Denmark, Norway and the UK. King Gustav VI Adolf used the Royal train carriage which was attached to the train going to where ever he was heading. During his summer holidays at Sofiero Castle it used to be docked at nearby Helsingborg train station and became a popular sign for the locals that summer had arrived.
 
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