The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #301  
Old 09-28-2020, 08:33 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 6,332
Marriage is not a requirement to becoming the Sovereign - marriage in most countries, however, can be a reason to be removed from the line of succession...

Nor did Vojthas suggest that Leonor was not going to be queen, she only suggested that Sofía could be Leonor's heir (so becoming queen AFTER not INSTEAD OF Leonor). This happened not that long ago (90's) in Belgium; and until very recently seemed a real possibility in Luxembourg. So, nobody doubts that the Spanish firstborn is the heir and it IS a real possibility that the heir might not have direct heirs (=children) of his/her own as we've seen in other monarchies.
__________________

  #302  
Old 09-28-2020, 10:08 PM
Countessmeout's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: alberta, Canada
Posts: 12,817
The issue isn't even really just the heiress.

If Leonor for some reason never marries, yes she would still be monarch. But she wouldn't have a consort to support her in her role. Or children to fill in the void either. It would fall to Sofia to be her extra hands, her support in the royal roles that need to be filled.

And even if Leonor has children, if she for some reason came to the throne before her children reached majority she would still need Sofia. We look at Margrethe in Denmark who used to send Benedikte to events that usually the heir would attend, when Frederick was still a minor.

As the only sibling of the future monarch, Sofia is going to have a purpose in the family for some years to come.

And if her sister has no children Sofia may not be queen either. It certainly isn't uncommon for a younger sibling to die first. If Sofia were to die before Leonor, it would be her possible children to succeed Leonor if Leonor had none of her own.
__________________

  #303  
Old 09-29-2020, 04:57 AM
Duke of Marmalade's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
TRF Author
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Frankfurt am Main, Germany
Posts: 13,887
Normally Sofia would cease to be a member of the RF when Leonor becomes Queen, like Cristina or Elena. But in case she becomes Queen without husband or children, Sofia will not be released into a private life.
  #304  
Old 10-07-2020, 11:08 AM
Blog Real's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lisboa, Portugal
Posts: 6,102
Hola magazine this week reported on Princess Leonor, who turns 15 on October 31.
The vanitatis website also did a report based on Hola.
According to Hola, Leonor's confirmation will be next year along with schoolmates of the same age.
In 2021 she should also visit the city of Santiago, as a reason for the year Xacobeo, fulfilling an old tradition.
From next year the Princess of Asturias can also be present at audiences at Zarzuela and lunches with foreign representatives.

https://www.hola.com/realeza/casa_es...cumple-quince/

https://www.vanitatis.elconfidencial...njero_2779280/
__________________
My blogs about monarchies
  #306  
Old 10-31-2020, 04:06 PM
An Ard Ri's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: An Iarmhí, Ireland
Posts: 30,602
Has Leonor made her Confirmation yet?

Maybe it was delayed because of the Covid19 Pandemic.
  #307  
Old 11-02-2020, 08:57 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: malaga, Spain
Posts: 342
Quote:
Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Has Leonor made her Confirmation yet?

Maybe it was delayed because of the Covid19 Pandemic.


The current order of the sacraments within the Catholic Church is
"Baptism, Confirmation, First Communion"
Before, Confirmation was done without a specific age, but never before the age of 12 and it was optional. Now, the confirmation is already done before First Communion, so the media have no idea. There is no Confirmation for Leonor unless she can do it as a private and intimate act, which I don't know.
In Spain and the Catholic Church it has never been an obligatory sacrament, except now, since if not, there is no First Communion.
The Spanish media see the Confirmation of Ingrid and her brother, and they have so little preparation that they do not even know the rules of the Catholic Church.
  #308  
Old 11-02-2020, 09:08 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: malaga, Spain
Posts: 342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Normally Sofia would cease to be a member of the RF when Leonor becomes Queen, like Cristina or Elena. But in case she becomes Queen without husband or children, Sofia will not be released into a private life.
Being only two sisters, without any cousin or cousin, aunt or uncle, ... nephew who can help them on behalf of the Crown, I think Sofia will be a permanent member of the FR. And if Leonor marries and is the king's family, she will continue to help her sister and have representation. And of course collecting a salary that her sister when she is queen, can have for her.
For a long time, it will be only two to deal with the representation of the crown. Not cousins, not uncles, not anyone. It is unthinkable to think that Sofía will leave Leonor.
Leonor needs Sofia.
Juan Carlos I, named a "Infante de Gracia", his cousin Carlos de Borbón-Dos Sicilias y Borbón-Parma and Juan Carlos had his two sisters, sometimes their parents and their three young children. Much less will Leonor have.
The appointment of "infantes" has always been made historically, to help represent the Crown in acts that the king does not reach. If we already have an infanta, it is not necessary to name anyone else. It is clear that it is a task that Leonor cannot do alone.
  #309  
Old 11-02-2020, 09:33 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Torrance, United States
Posts: 5,094
Quote:
Originally Posted by janelarn View Post
The current order for receiving the sacraments within the Catholic Church is
"Baptism, Confirmation, First Communion"
Before, Confirmation was done without a specific age, but never before the age of 12 and it was optional. Now, the confirmation is already done before First Communion, so the media have no idea. There is no Confirmation for Leonor unless she can do it as a private and intimate act, which I don't know.
In Spain and the Catholic Church it has never been an obligatory sacrament, except now, since if not, there is no First Communion.
The Spanish media see the Confirmation of Ingrid and her brother, and they have so little preparation that they do not even know the rules of the Catholic Church.
Interesting. In U.S. the current order of Sacraments for children is Baptism (infants), First Reconciliation and First Communion (age 7) and Confirmation (15). However those over the age of 7 who have not received any Sacraments will have Baptism/First Communion together.
  #310  
Old 11-02-2020, 09:43 PM
Countessmeout's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: alberta, Canada
Posts: 12,817
Quote:
Originally Posted by janelarn View Post
The current order of the sacraments within the Catholic Church is
"Baptism, Confirmation, First Communion"
Before, Confirmation was done without a specific age, but never before the age of 12 and it was optional. Now, the confirmation is already done before First Communion, so the media have no idea. There is no Confirmation for Leonor unless she can do it as a private and intimate act, which I don't know.
In Spain and the Catholic Church it has never been an obligatory sacrament, except now, since if not, there is no First Communion.
The Spanish media see the Confirmation of Ingrid and her brother, and they have so little preparation that they do not even know the rules of the Catholic Church.
The issue lays that the rules have changed in the last years, and not across the board (diocese have adopted them with time). Baptism/confirmation/communion is the original order but churches have only reverted to this pattern in recent years.

For most people over the age of 20, if they are Catholics they would have been baptized as infants, had communion in grade 2 (7-8) and had their confirmation in grade 8 or so. The image of little girls in white dresses and veils, and little boys in white suits at age 7 is the traditional image for many of communion.

I would think the media in a Catholic country could perhaps do some better research.
  #311  
Old 11-03-2020, 02:12 AM
Duke of Marmalade's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
TRF Author
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Frankfurt am Main, Germany
Posts: 13,887
Quote:
Originally Posted by janelarn View Post
Being only two sisters, without any cousin or cousin, aunt or uncle, ... nephew who can help them on behalf of the Crown, I think Sofia will be a permanent member of the FR. And if Leonor marries and is the king's family, she will continue to help her sister and have representation. And of course collecting a salary that her sister when she is queen, can have for her.
For a long time, it will be only two to deal with the representation of the crown. Not cousins, not uncles, not anyone. It is unthinkable to think that Sofía will leave Leonor.
Leonor needs Sofia.
Juan Carlos I, named a "Infante de Gracia", his cousin Carlos de Borbón-Dos Sicilias y Borbón-Parma and Juan Carlos had his two sisters, sometimes their parents and their three young children. Much less will Leonor have.
The appointment of "infantes" has always been made historically, to help represent the Crown in acts that the king does not reach. If we already have an infanta, it is not necessary to name anyone else. It is clear that it is a task that Leonor cannot do alone.

Totally agree - but it also means that Sofia is not 'free' to do what she wants to do in terms of education and profession, as she always has to be ready to step up in an unfortunate development of events or if Leonor has no issue.
  #312  
Old 11-03-2020, 10:35 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: malaga, Spain
Posts: 342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Totally agree - but it also means that Sofia is not 'free' to do what she wants to do in terms of education and profession, as she always has to be ready to step up in an unfortunate development of events or if Leonor has no issue.

In principle, I believe that their parents, the king and queen, are educating both Leonor and Sofia in a very similar way because they know that the princess will need her sister. Being only two members of the family that can be available until the next generation, it is very hard.
That is why his father established that whoever engages in private business will not be able to collect from the Crown. So the fate of Sofia and Leonor seem clear positioned forever in the Crown.
Something unexpected can always happen. Either Leonor does not want this path or Sofia rejects it. Hopefully your parents are doing a good job and stay together forever.
  #313  
Old 11-03-2020, 11:36 PM
Countessmeout's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: alberta, Canada
Posts: 12,817
The reality is Leonor is in the same position as her father was.

Felipe is currently king. He has no sisters who do public duties. He has no aunts or uncles who perform royal roles. He has no cousins who perform royal roles. His daughters are minors who can't perform roles (at least solo). It lays with him and his wife at this moment.

If Leonor say married at 30, her father would only be 67. There is no saying he won't be on the throne for at least another decade or so after that. Leonor would have her parents (who would be on the throne) and her spouse at her side. That would 2 more adults to perform duties than there currently is in Spain. And if she came to the throne before her children came of age, she would be in the same position as her father is now.

Sofia isn't in any way required to be a working royal. The worry 'well what if'. She doesn't remove herself from the line of succession if she goes into private life. She simply doesnt get funding. The line of succession doesnt end with Leonor and Sofia, their aunts and cousins are still in line even if private. If Leonor died, or she had no children, Sofia could still inherit the throne, or her children could. It doesn't require her to be a working royal.

It makes sense that Sofia get the same or similar training to her sister. Until her sister has children, she will be the next in line to the throne. And there is some chance she would succeed (though far less then decades ago). But that doesn't limit her to having to be a full time royal on the royal pay.
  #314  
Old 11-04-2020, 03:16 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: malaga, Spain
Posts: 342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
The reality is Leonor is in the same position as her father was.

Felipe is currently king. He has no sisters who do public duties. He has no aunts or uncles who perform royal roles. He has no cousins who perform royal roles. His daughters are minors who can't perform roles (at least solo). It lays with him and his wife at this moment.

If Leonor say married at 30, her father would only be 67. There is no saying he won't be on the throne for at least another decade or so after that. Leonor would have her parents (who would be on the throne) and her spouse at her side. That would 2 more adults to perform duties than there currently is in Spain. And if she came to the throne before her children came of age, she would be in the same position as her father is now.

Sofia isn't in any way required to be a working royal. The worry 'well what if'. She doesn't remove herself from the line of succession if she goes into private life. She simply doesnt get funding. The line of succession doesnt end with Leonor and Sofia, their aunts and cousins are still in line even if private. If Leonor died, or she had no children, Sofia could still inherit the throne, or her children could. It doesn't require her to be a working royal.

It makes sense that Sofia get the same or similar training to her sister. Until her sister has children, she will be the next in line to the throne. And there is some chance she would succeed (though far less then decades ago). But that doesn't limit her to having to be a full time royal on the royal pay.
The line of succession would not stop at Eleanor, but scandals are splashing all over her two aunts and older cousins, so actually, she's pretty lonely.
Her father is already married with two teenage daughters, and Leonor still doesn't even know if or when she will marry.
Everyone is free to decide their destiny, but when you are Infanta of Spain, a little less.
The last similar case in Spain was a disaster. Isabel II and the Infanta Luisa Fernanda, forced to marry the same day, from that moment on became "enemies" because of the intrigues of the Duke of Montpensier who wanted to dethrone Isabel so that her children inherited the crown. Curiously, her blood is still alive today within the Spanish royal family through Felipe VI's grandmother, uniting the blood of the two sisters. But that is another story.
Let's wait and see, but I'm afraid Leonor will be under pressure to get married soon and to a marriage that does not raise doubts. Her father waited a long time to get married because he could afford it; in fact, he said he was willing to be a single king if he didn't find love. I don't think those are Leonor's options. The press will overwhelm her as well as society and politics. Let's wait to see.
  #315  
Old 11-04-2020, 03:20 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: malaga, Spain
Posts: 342
In theory, the Infanta Sofía will be freer than her sister, but in practice, I am afraid that she is just as tied up as her sister because of family circumstances and in fact, I believe that she is being educated for it.
And that's fine with me.
  #316  
Old 11-04-2020, 03:32 PM
Countessmeout's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: alberta, Canada
Posts: 12,817
You aren't comparing Isabella II to modern times

Thank heavens politics, society and expectations have changed in the 174 years since Isabella II was forced into marriage. Heck things have changed since her grandparents got married.

The expectation of a royal heir having to marry early and pump out heirs ended decades ago. Felipe was 36 hardly an old man when he married. Neither Leonor or her sister are going to be rushed into an early marriage to an 'acceptable man'. Unlike the 1800's, life expectancy is much higher, mortality rate in mothers is much lower. Chance of child death is much lower. There is no need to marry at 18 and pump out 18 pregnancies, because you likely will lose 12 of those and another 3 or 4 will die in childhood or war.

When Felipe came to the throne his daughters were 9 and 7 years old. He still has another decade or so before Leonor is done her schooling and training, and takes on full time royal duties. He and Letizia will be the only working senior royals for at least another 10 years.'

Why will Leonor be lonely??? Her father is only 52. He is not likely to die for another 2 or 3 decades, and her mother either. If Felipe chose to abdicate, and did at the age his father did at 76, that would still leave Leonor another 24 years before she will be queen. At 39 she is likely to be married and have a child or two under her belt. As her father has proven for six years now, a Spanish monarch is more than capable of running the country without a sibling or adult child to step in for duties.


And what major scandal have her cousins been involved with? Or her second aunt for that matter?
  #317  
Old 11-04-2020, 03:41 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 9,063
Quote:
Originally Posted by TLLK View Post
Interesting. In U.S. the current order of Sacraments for children is Baptism (infants), First Reconciliation and First Communion (age 7) and Confirmation (15). However those over the age of 7 who have not received any Sacraments will have Baptism/First Communion together.
it was like that in my young days, too.. except that Confirmation was at a younger age. It was baptism for infants, Confession and Communion at 7 and Confirmation was after the age of 10, Confirmations happened every 3 years so the age was from 10 y/o to 12.
  #318  
Old 11-04-2020, 03:52 PM
Blog Real's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lisboa, Portugal
Posts: 6,102
Of all the heirs of his generation, Leonor will be the one who will have the most person on it.
Spain is an unstable country, and it will have to avoid all controversies, because of all the problems that the monarchy is going through today.
King Felipe VI and Queen Letizia will demand a lot from their daughter, they will want her to be an example for everyone.
I don't believe Felipe and Letizia want their daughter to get married too soon, but before she focuses on the duties of the heiress to the throne and that she gets used to this life first and only then think about marriage.
Obviously she's going to have boyfriends and she might fall in love and want to get married, but she's going to have to get the king's and queen's approval, and I don't think they're going to let her marry anyone.
__________________
My blogs about monarchies
  #319  
Old 11-05-2020, 01:54 AM
Duke of Marmalade's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
TRF Author
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Frankfurt am Main, Germany
Posts: 13,887
I think there will be a lot of pressure. The later you have children, the more difficult it gets - I think that Felipe and Letizia had a lot more time for their daughters when they were still PoA, being King is a different ball game in terms of responsibility and time consuming issues. There will be a lot on her shoulders to please everyone or at least those she has to please, education, find a suitable husband, have children without having fertility issues, prepare for the top job that can come tomorrow or in a few decades ... I think it will be easier for Felipe to accept the truth of such a predetermined life but it must be horrible to watch for Letizia who used to be a free woman, free of choice, independent and autonomous before she married into the SRF and took that choice from her daughters.
  #320  
Old 11-08-2020, 10:47 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: malaga, Spain
Posts: 342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
I think there will be a lot of pressure. The later you have children, the more difficult it gets - I think that Felipe and Letizia had a lot more time for their daughters when they were still PoA, being King is a different ball game in terms of responsibility and time consuming issues. There will be a lot on her shoulders to please everyone or at least those she has to please, education, find a suitable husband, have children without having fertility issues, prepare for the top job that can come tomorrow or in a few decades ... I think it will be easier for Felipe to accept the truth of such a predetermined life but it must be horrible to watch for Letizia who used to be a free woman, free of choice, independent and autonomous before she married into the SRF and took that choice from her daughters.
Queen Letizia has been in the royal family for almost 20 years and being Spanish gives her the advantage that she knew perfectly how she had to educate her children and what the future would be like for Leonor and Sofía.
__________________

Closed Thread

Tags
infanta leonor, infanta sofia, princess of asturias


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Infanta Leonor and Infanta Sofía, News and Pictures Part 5: December 2010 - June 2014 dazzling Current Events Archive 310 06-21-2014 04:47 AM
Infanta Leonor and Infanta Sofía, News and Pictures Part 4: June 2008 - December 2010 LadyK Current Events Archive 397 12-25-2010 07:50 AM
Infanta Leonor and Infanta Sofía, News and Pictures Part 3: November 2007 - June 2008 Avalon Current Events Archive 190 06-18-2008 07:24 PM
Infanta Leonor and Infanta Sofía, News and Pictures Part 2: June 2007 - November 2007 Anna_R Current Events Archive 187 11-29-2007 10:30 AM
Infanta Leonor and Infanta Sofía, News and Pictures Part 1: April - July 2007 Anna_R Current Events Archive 269 07-03-2007 12:57 PM




Popular Tags
abu dhabi america american history archie mountbatten-windsor background story baptism biography britain british british royal family brownbitcoinqueen buckingham palace camilla's family camilla parker bowles china chinese clarence house commonwealth countries countess of snowdon customs daisy doge of venice doll duchess of sussex duke of cambridge duke of sussex elizabeth ii emperor family life fashion and style george vi gustaf vi adolf harry and meghan hello! jack brooksbank jewellery kensington palace king edward vii king willem-alexander książ castle line of succession list of rulers luxembourg meghan markle nepal nepalese royal jewels plantinum jubilee prince charles of luxembourg prince constantijn prince harry princess ariane princess catharina-amalia princess chulabhorn walailak princess ribha queen consort queen louise queen maxima royal ancestry royal court solomon j solomon spain speech sussex suthida swedish queen taiwan thailand tradition united states of america wales


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:20 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2021
Jelsoft Enterprises
×