King Juan Carlos and Queen Sofia, Current Events Part 21: May 2011 - April 2012


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Alondra said:
How much do you know about what the politicians in your country do ....and their pay backs?

I said from the beginning that JC had made a mistake. But I refuse to crucify him for for doing what most other royals of his generation have done and still do.

He has apologised and said it won't happen again. It's way more that many heads of state who have done far worse, have ever done.
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Actually, just recently there was a big controversy in my country about the Prime Minister's party seeking donations from wealthy individuals in return for 'access' to decision makers. An inquiry is under way.

Just because others have done it doesn't make it right. Given the economic catastrophe unfolding in Spain, to have the King accepting huge gifts from Saudi Princes is just incredibly dubious. If I was a Spaniard I'd want to know what this Saudi guy is getting in return.
 
EIIR said:
Actually, just recently there was a big controversy in my country about the Prime Minister's party seeking donations from wealthy individuals in return for 'access' to decision makers. An inquiry is under way.

Just because others have done it doesn't make it right. Given the economic catastrophe unfolding in Spain, to have the King accepting huge gifts from Saudi Princes is just incredibly dubious. If I was a Spaniard I'd want to know what this Saudi guy is getting in return.
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EIIR, I said it in the other thread, these are old boys' network connections that origin from the unique situation of the monarchy being re-established and Spain being steered into democracy. Most of it wont continue under Felipe because he will be under a different scrutiny and doesnt see eye to eye with his fathers old buddies.

It may not be right but JC still gets away with most things (well, maybe not elephant hunting), especially if they serve the Spanish cause too (in this case, multi-billion contracts with saudi business). Installing democracy after the Franco regime will give him the life-long respect of his country and make him untouchable eg regarding abolishment or abdication, these discussions will only come up after his death. The fact that the Spaniards respect Juan Carlos doesnt make them necessarily monarchists.
 
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Alondra said:
How much do you know about what the politicians in your country do ....and their pay backs?

I said from the beginning that JC had made a mistake. But I refuse to crucify him for for doing what most other royals of his generation have done and still do.

He has apologised and said it won't happen again. It's way more that many heads of state who have done far worse, have ever done.
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He has apologized, but I don't believe it is sincere. He has the blood lust and did not quit this type of hunting when the other royal houses stopped big game hunting. Spain's King Kills Tame, Drunk Bear on Russian Trip (Update2) - Bloomberg and King of Spain Shoots a Drunken Bear Dead - Kommersant Moscow

The other royal houses still hunt, but their bag is served at table.
 
The whole hunting thing seems to be obscuring the more concerning problems here:
-- the PR error or taking an apparently lavish trip during an economic crisis
-- the reports about the alleged mistress
-- the questions about accepting trips and associations with unsavory people

The hunting trip is, at worst, a PR blunder, both in terms of taking the trip and elephant hunting. But, it's not illegal.

If the stories about the mistress are true, that might well be illegal, assuming adultery is illegal in Spain.

Same with accepting gifts. I'd be curious to know if the King, as a public official, is allowed to accept such favors.

Hunting elephants may be objectionable to many, but it's not even the most alarming thing here.
 
kalnel said:
The whole hunting thing seems to be obscuring the more concerning problems here:
-- the PR error or taking an apparently lavish trip during an economic crisis
-- the reports about the alleged mistress
-- the questions about accepting trips and associations with unsavory people

The hunting trip is, at worst, a PR blunder, both in terms of taking the trip and elephant hunting. But, it's not illegal.

If the stories about the mistress are true, that might well be illegal, assuming adultery is illegal in Spain.

Same with accepting gifts. I'd be curious to know if the King, as a public official, is allowed to accept such favors.

Hunting elephants may be objectionable to many, but it's not even the most alarming thing here.
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Why would adultery be illegal in a secular society? It is a private matter.
 
kalnel said:
The whole hunting thing seems to be obscuring the more concerning problems here:
-- the PR error or taking an apparently lavish trip during an economic crisis
-- the reports about the alleged mistress
-- the questions about accepting trips and associations with unsavory people

The hunting trip is, at worst, a PR blunder, both in terms of taking the trip and elephant hunting. But, it's not illegal.

If the stories about the mistress are true, that might well be illegal, assuming adultery is illegal in Spain.

Same with accepting gifts. I'd be curious to know if the King, as a public official, is allowed to accept such favors.

Hunting elephants may be objectionable to many, but it's not even the most alarming thing here.
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No, none of it is illegal. I'm blase regarding the mistresses and spending money and accepting gifts.

The man is too out of touch to be a 21st century monarch.
 
Alondra said:
I don't know. Maybe a political pay back from the Spanish government at some point?

All countries play the same game.
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Perhaps access to Spanish officials that may approve Saudi investment/development in Spain? Wouldn't be a bad thing if that were the case considering the current state of the economy.
Arab royals tend to prefer dealing with other royals which is why Prince Andrew and other British royals are frequent visitors to the Middle East. As the UK Foreign Minister said it gives the UK and its companies a profile and a boost that other countries cannot match.
 
NGalitzine said:
Why would adultery be illegal in a secular society? It is a private matter.
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It varies from place to place. It's illegal in most states in the United States and in Canada, but I don't know about Spain. It's not often prosecuted, but it's a felony in several states, including Wisconsin, Michigan, and Maryland. Throughout North America, it's grounds for divorce.

A member of the U.S. military caught committing adultery can be court martialed and dishonorably discharged. That was a big issue when Bill Clinton admitted to Monica Lewinsky, since he was commander-in-chief.

In a legal sense, it's a breech of contract and a form of fraud.
 
KittyAtlanta said:
No, none of it is illegal. I'm blase regarding the mistresses and spending money and accepting gifts.

The man is too out of touch to be a 21st century monarch.
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I don't know what Spain's law on adultery is, but I imagine accepting gifts would be illegal if someone were trying to buy favor with the government. If it's just a matter of his rich friends buying him lavish gifts without any expectation of favors, I agree with you.

Is he out of touch? Hard to say. He certainly has a tin ear on PR issues, but kings do play by different rules. :)
 
kalnel said:
It varies from place to place. It's illegal in most states in the United States and in Canada, but I don't know about Spain. It's not often prosecuted, but it's a felony in several states, including Wisconsin, Michigan, and Maryland. Throughout North America, it's grounds for divorce.


In a legal sense, it's a breech of contract and a form of fraud.
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How bizarre and puritanical. On that basis an awful lot of people, including several of your leaders would need to be locked up. Newt Gingrich having famously been unfaithful to 2 of his wives and then married to 2 women who were previously his mistresses. Fortunately most places have moved to no fault divorce. While adultery is one of 3 grounds for divorce (if it can be proved or is admitted) it doesn't gain the offended spouse any points in the divorce because Canada is essentially a no fault country.
 
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kalnel said:
It varies from place to place. It's illegal in most states in the United States and in Canada, but I don't know about Spain. It's not often prosecuted, but it's a felony in several states, including Wisconsin, Michigan, and Maryland. Throughout North America, it's grounds for divorce.

A member of the U.S. military caught committing adultery can be court martialed and dishonorably discharged. That was a big issue when Bill Clinton admitted to Monica Lewinsky, since he was commander-in-chief.

In a legal sense, it's a breech of contract and a form of fraud.
Click to expand...
Most states have a no-fault divorce? Most courts could not care any less of peoples fidelity.
 
However, marriage is a legally binding contract which requires another legal action (divorce) to dissolve. While adultery is not part of criminal law, it is a matter for domestic law. The requirement for divorce to dissolve the marriage contract provides for the resolution of the care of children and real property. The breaking of one's word (dishonesty) can certainly be argued to disturb the peace of the community. Marriage provides order within a society, generally provides for the care of children and maintenance of property.
'No fault" divorce simply means that the parties agree to dissolve the marriage on the grounds of "irreconcilable differences". The above issues (children and property) still must be resolved. There have been arguments made that "no fault" divorce has not been an improvement for women and children.
And, we'll give you Newt Gingrich any day!!! Smile...
 
I don't think any one of these incidents in isolation would have caused a big a problem as this but as several small things all went on at one time it is a major PR disaster for the King. Every aspect of it makes his look out of touch with his people IMO. I'd love to know what the majority of people in Spain think about this.
I think all of this will result in more scrutiny of the King and his family.
 
Alondra said:
Slowly getting more information....

www.microsofttranslator.com/BV.aspx?ref=IE8Activity&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abc.es%2F20120418%2Fespana%2Fabci-elefantes-dinero-201204180207.html

"Finally, the identity of the person who invited the King to the hunting has been known. This is the Saudi businessman of Syrian origin and residing in Spain Mohamed Eyad Kayali, Manager and confidant of Prince Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud, Minister of defence of Saudi Arabia and third in the line of succession to the Crown. The close relationship of friendship that Don Juan Carlos maintains with Prince Salman has been decisive in the award of the contract of the «bird of the desert' to a consortium of Spanish companies. The project, valued at more 6.736 billion euros, is the largest international contract ever achieved by Spanish companies."

JC has no doubt made a mistake, a big one. The days of royal hunting without impunity are gone, and unfortunately for him, he got caught. Worst of all, he did so in a week critical to Spain's financial standing and he's been damaged as a result.

PHP: 
Having said that, the WWF maybe should shut up and look back to its own past before getting all high and mighty. A past including well known big game African hunting royals as its funding Presidents.
As a Spaniard, one thing that I consider positive from this fiasco is the confirmation that the Prince of Asturias' family are finally being recognised as the hard working, committed royals struggling getting acknowledgement in the past. It's dreadful how la Casa Real (the Royal House) has treated Letizia ....by simply never defending her. I truly feel for both Felipe and Letizia and give them kudos for how they are handling these awful times.

On the issue of JC and mistresses, while it may be a "scandal" in the rest of the world, it's been ackowledged in Spain for many years. It's their private life. A life QS has always been quite happy about.
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Do you really think he can remain their patron?

Am so suprised that he could want to kill an elephant, actually do it and have his picture taken with the dead animal. Not illegal just immoral, even if the animal needed putting down, it was not his job.

I actually admired and respected the Spanish royals but I do not like Juan Carlos anymore and that will not change.
 
susan alicia said:
definitely not sincere, he is only sorry because he got find out
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What more do you want from the man?
Is he supposed to put on a hair shirt, crawl on his knees up the cathedral steps and flaggelate himself for the amusement of the population?
 
NGalitzine said:
What more do you want from the man?
Is he supposed to put on a hair shirt, crawl on his knees up the cathedral steps and flaggelate himself for the amusement of the population?
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I agree. I'm frankly surprised he apologized at all. "Never complain, never explain" is not a horrible policy in situations like this.
 
susan alicia said:
definitely not sincere, he is only sorry because he got find out
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And how would you know whether or not he is sincere? If you don't want to believe him that's fair enough, but at the end of the day is whether Spaniards believe him that is important.
 
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I really don't understand why the King said "I'am sorry..."..he is sorry for what? For going on holidays during the crisis? For killing animals for fun...for spending money while others are going through difficulties? For hurting himself? I really don't understand what the King means with "I'am sorry".
 
biboquinhas said:
I really don't understand why the King said "I'am sorry..."..he is sorry for what? For going on holidays during the crisis? For killing animals for fun...for spending money while others are going through difficulties? For hurting himself? I really don't understand what the King means with "I'am sorry".
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Probably the lot. I think some people tend to overthink words too much - an apology is simply a recognition we've done something wrong. Saying "it won't happen again' means just that - mistakes have been learnt.

There are living Heads of State that engaged in wars costing lives to millions who have never apologised. On the contrary they still maintain they were right.

Apparently King Juan Carlos needs to kneel and flog himself for his attrocities.
 
NGalitzine said:
What more do you want from the man?
Is he supposed to put on a hair shirt, crawl on his knees up the cathedral steps and flaggelate himself for the amusement of the population?
Click to expand...
What a delightful mental picture:whistling:
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
EIIR, I said it in the other thread, these are old boys' network connections that origin from the unique situation of the monarchy being re-established and Spain being steered into democracy. Most of it wont continue under Felipe because he will be under a different scrutiny and doesnt see eye to eye with his fathers old buddies.

It may not be right but JC still gets away with most things (well, maybe not elephant hunting), especially if they serve the Spanish cause too (in this case, multi-billion contracts with saudi business). Installing democracy after the Franco regime will give him the life-long respect of his country and make him untouchable eg regarding abolishment or abdication, these discussions will only come up after his death. The fact that the Spaniards respect Juan Carlos doesnt make them necessarily monarchists.
Click to expand...
I fully agree with you.
 
They seem very close and I'm sure they've commiserated with each other over their errant husbands!
 
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Very nice pictures, all of them. It's great that they can be supportive of each other.
 
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