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  #41  
Old 10-24-2019, 07:02 PM
Archduchess Zelia's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Hmm, did I strike a nerve? (...)
No, you resorted to petty ad hominem because you seemingly can't handle that someone disagrees with you. Insinuating that I deliberately dehumanise J&M is about as ridiculous as if I was to accuse you of backing certain narratives for not speaking out against the crowd that routinely comes rhythmically snapping from the shadows on here whenever Mary takes a breath. Nonsensical. Just because I don't subscribe to your idea of categorising Marie's misdirected frustration as a "human reaction", doesn't mean I'm either incapable of or unwilling to be empathetic to her and Joachim when empathy is due.
So no, Muhler, you didn't "strike a nerve", and no, I'm not "angry with you" (trust me, I have better things to do than to waste time and energy getting angry every time some insignificant man is condescending to me on the internet ), I'm just not someone who takes patronisation and the twisting of my words to fit your narrative lying down.

Maybe if you read my posts less selectively, you would've noticed that our agreement that Joachim bringing his apanage to France is justifiable isn't sudden and has been my stance all along. But as I've also said repeatedly, whether or not Joachim was right in his comments to EB has no impact on the point I'm making, so it's beyond me why you keep wallowing in that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
The press has very much gone after Joachim himself, in regards to receiving the apanage in France. Despite the fact that the decision was not his. That was up to QMII, approved by the governments and ultimately by the Parliament.
So Marie was right in saying that Joachim has been treated unfairly.
First, the government has not approved them bringing the apanage to France. Both the former and current governments have refused to act on the court failing to formally seek permission to lift the apanage out of the country – saying they consider the stay a study abroad-like situation – but that doesn't equate approval. And definitely not parliamentary approval. Joachim is an intelligent man. Suggesting that he hasn't been able to ask the court to simply abide by the constitution is belittling his intellect.

It is also not singlehandedly because of the lack of parliamentary ratification that the press has "gone after" () Joachim. Naturally, it was brought up pre-move. Were you expecting them not to write about a breech of the constitution? If the court/J&M didn't want the press to dig into it, they could've just followed procedure. If they wanted to shake the perception of arrogance, they could start by not acting as if they're above the rules. (So no, no unfair treatment from the press, just an impressive lack of foresight from the court).

As I've explained at length multiple times now, as I see it, the main issue in regard to Marie's comments on the press being "unreasonable" is that the court's statement about their patronages remaining unaffected by the move has legitimated inquiries into the subject of their apanage (i.e. questions that Marie define as "unreasonable"). It's not that I don't understand that it can be frustrating to have to deal with a communications department as hopeless as the DRF's and if Marie had kept her "lashing out" at "come on now, he's here in capacity of his job with the military, of course it's reasonable to bring the apanage", I would've backed her 100%. But the moment she essentially tries to silence legitimate inquiries from the press rooted in a statement their own court has put out, that's a no-go. And yes, royals are flawed beings like the rest of us, but if J&M can't rationalise that they have their own court (and/or their lack of communication) to blame for these inquiries, I think they've grown a little too comfortable in their positions of privilege.

On a slightly more positive note, I really like what I've seen of Joachim's documentary. Anna von Lowzow is a great historical documentarist (she also has possibly the best royal documentary of all time, En kongelig familie, on her resume). Narratively a bit messy but at the same time I like the idea that they've dedicated each episode to a specific subject. I agree that Joachim has inherited QMII's impeccable knack for storytelling and I agree with Sebastion Olden-Jørgensen's point in the BT article above that it was nice to see Joachim being himself and in his right element.

I think what I loved the most though was the message Joachim put out on the DRF's Instagram account ahead of the premiere. It was sweet and personal, and you could tell from it that it was a big moment for him. It also made me wonder why he and Marie don't pull a CP and Sofia and get themselves their own IG account. I think it could do wonders for them and their image to be able to showcase more of their work and their lives and not necessarily have to be tied up to the formality of the DRF's official account. I know I'd follow them
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  #42  
Old 10-25-2019, 10:29 AM
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Just a moment: It's up to the head of the DRF to handle matters regarding the apanage for the various members. That's QMII, not Joachim, not Benedikte, not M&F. That's the chain of command.

It's up to the government to advise the Monarch whether that's a good idea or not. In fact it's one of the foremost jobs of any PM.

Joachim will not and cannot bypass QMII. So he is not the one who should ask for approval by the government and/or Parliament.

The Constitution is open to interpretation in regards to the apanage.
It says a member of the DRF cannot receive an apanage while living/residing abroad. (Without an approval by the Parliament. So a "retirement-apanage" could perhaps be a possibility. But that's for another discussion.) But it doesn't say that a member of DRF is prohibited from receiving an apanage while being stationed abroad. In the service of the DRF and/or Denmark. I.e. the royal in question is still on the job, so to speak. In contrast to a DRF member who has decided to settle and live in another country. (Doing a Madeleine, for comparison.)

The Danish monarch has traditionally considerable power and long reins in regards to the internal affairs of his/her family. The Parliament has avoided micromanaging the DRF. - As I understand it, in order to maintain the integrity and independence of the Monarch. (Say the Monarch can't be "influenced" by whatever government is in power, by the government withholding or granting funds and permissions to the DRF.)

Could all this have been handled better? Of course it could. That's the great thing about hindsight. You can always do better afterwards.
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  #43  
Old 10-25-2019, 05:34 PM
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The subject of the lack of permission still doesn't really relate to the point I'm making at all (aside from the fact that following procedure would've made everything easier for J&M), but I also don't believe I've ever insinuated that Joachim himself should've shown up at the doorstep of the parliament and asked for permission
However, Joachim is presumably capable of thinking for himself and I fully trust that he could've insisted that procedure was followed – especially since it's pretty obvious that he was gonna get the heat for not doing so. Hence my comment that the suggestion that he's just being puppeteered around is belittling his intelligence. But it's also beyond point who should've asked, bottom line is that if they wanted to avoid the press hullaballoo, they should've asked.

Writing it off as something that's simply clearer in hindsight just doesn't hold. You don't have to be a communications major to know that bypassing the rules will rub people the wrong way and be a meaty story for the press. Looking for ways to interpret the constitution differently rather than acknowledging that it was a glaring mistake for the court not to be arsed to ask for permission – something they would've been granted immediately – is just a reach and I hope you stretched before doing it.
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  #44  
Old 10-26-2019, 08:04 AM
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So he should have asked his mother to ask the Parliament for permission to receive his apanage while in France?
Just in case QMII and her advisors couldn't figure out what to do themselves I presume?
I think she can.

Why is it obvious he would get heat for getting his apanage while studying in France?
Frederik studied at Harvard and he continued to receive his apanage. In fact the discussion back then was not about his apanage but the costs of having two PET officers there with him, in an additional apartment.

So there are different rules for Peter and Paul? Or rather Joachim and Frederik?

And as for the governments, both of them, if they thought it was a really bad idea for Joachim to continue receiving his apanage while in France, why didn't they let it be known to QMII?
It's not like it was a total surprise that Joachim was going.
It was after a direct invitation by President Macron and would have involved two senior government ministers: The Minister of Defense and the Prime Minister - of both governments. The former, liberal government and the current Social Democrat government.
  #45  
Old 10-26-2019, 10:39 AM
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My apologies if it had been answered before, but isn't Prince Joachim in a similar situation than Princess Benedikte ? And did she or does she still receive an apanage or not ?
She also lived outside Denmark for quite some time, so was her situation very different to Prince Joachim's current one ?
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  #46  
Old 10-26-2019, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elektra View Post
My apologies if it had been answered before, but isn't Prince Joachim in a similar situation than Princess Benedikte ? And did she or does she still receive an apanage or not ?
She also lived outside Denmark for quite some time, so was her situation very different to Prince Joachim's current one ?
Well, her address is still Schloss Berleburg, but she does spend a lot of time in DK though. Perhaps even most of the time now that she's a widow.
But she would certainly have spend less time in DK beforehand.
However when she is in DK, she is undeniably very active in her work for the DRF!

I'm not sure off hand, but I believe she receives her apanage via QMII. I.e. a certain percentage of QMII's apanage is earmarked for Benedikte. Just as a certain percentage was earmarked for PH when he lived.
And indeed Mary gets 10% of the apanage Frederik gets. That is earmarked for her personally.
  #47  
Old 10-26-2019, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
So he should have asked his mother to ask the Parliament for permission to receive his apanage while in France?
Just in case QMII and her advisors couldn't figure out what to do themselves I presume?
I think she can.

Why is it obvious he would get heat for getting his apanage while studying in France?
Frederik studied at Harvard and he continued to receive his apanage. In fact the discussion back then was not about his apanage but the costs of having two PET officers there with him, in an additional apartment.

So there are different rules for Peter and Paul? Or rather Joachim and Frederik?
Well, it seems fairly obvious to me that [they] couldn't. Because then they would've had the foresight to know that it was gonna look bad in the press. (I'm fairly certain it would go through the court and not QMII herself but I don't know enough about the process to say that for sure, hence the "they".)

Well, first of all there are different rules for everyone Like Joachim, I have a state-funded income (sadly, my student grant amounts to just a tiny fragment of what Joachim receives annually though ) but I wouldn't just be allowed to take mine abroad without going through tiresome applications processes where the state would carefully asses whether the courses I'd be taking abroad are relevant to my education and whether I'd tally enough ECTS points during my stay abroad. Much more difficult than what the court would've had to go through regarding Joachim, but enough about glaring double standards.

As for the comparison to Frederik: First, I didn't write that Joachim was gonna "get heat for getting his apanage while studying in France", I wrote that he was gonna get heat for not asking for permission. Secondly, I think the examples are incomparable. Frederik was 24 and studied abroad for a year in extension of his university studies (something I'd argue was expected of him). Joachim is 50 and brings his wife (a working royal like himself) and two children. So yes, different rules – not for Frederik and Joachim, but for Frederik and Joachim's respective life situations at the time they moved their apanage abroad.

Regarding:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
And as for the governments, both of them, if they thought it was a really bad idea for Joachim to continue receiving his apanage while in France, why didn't they let it be known to QMII?
I don't know why you insist on making it sound like I'm arguing he shouldn't receive apanage while in France. Again, that has never been my point. I absolutely think not seeking approval was the first communicative mistake they made regarding the move because from an onlookers perspective it reeks of presumptuousness when you refuse to follow procedure, but of course he should be allowed to bring it.

With that said, I believe you've already answered your own question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
The Parliament has avoided micromanaging the DRF. - As I understand it, in order to maintain the integrity and independence of the Monarch. (Say the Monarch can't be "influenced" by whatever government is in power, by the government withholding or granting funds and permissions to the DRF.).
Add to that that governments on varying sides of the political spectrum have been known to be notoriously afraid to touch on the DRF. Frederik not facing any repercussions for voting against the government's stands in IOC matters is a perfect example of this.
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  #48  
Old 10-26-2019, 07:54 PM
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I don't think Joachim's opportunity to study in France-military & diplomatic related studies--can be dismissed as something he just wanted to do. He was basically recruited and the Danish government agreed he should go. This opportunity would not be open to a young man, it requires considerable background and experience of at least a middle aged man. It is a huge honor. So really just an extension of his duties as a member of the DRF.

It would be ridiculous for Marie and the children to remain in Denmark during the year. similar to when a government employee or military member is posted somewhere there is not danger/combat and his family moves too.
  #49  
Old 10-26-2019, 08:32 PM
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I don't disagree. But if we're talking reasons why he got heat for taking his apanage abroad when Frederik didn't, I'm just saying that it's easier to sell apanage during a school stay abroad to the general public if you're actually taking it in extension of your higher education studies. It was expected for Frederik to take parts of his higher education abroad, it wasn't expected for Joachim to take this course which is what makes it incomparable to me. That's not to diminish Joachim's course, just to say that combined with the court's catastrophic communication on the subject (they've basically run a "no comments" policy on every aspect of it), going back to school at 50 was always gonna be harder (although not impossible) to sell.

I'm also not arguing that Marie should've stayed behind, just that another thing that's considerably different about the two stays abroad is that Joachim's affects more than just his own abilities to function as a working royal which again makes it more prone to criticism.
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  #50  
Old 10-26-2019, 09:45 PM
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Come on, you are fighting a rearguard action to use the military jargon.

There really isn't much left of your arguments by now.

Please, don't get upset, but you have a little tendency to take everything personal. You may not have argued that it was in your opinion wrong for Joachim to take his apanage with him to France. However, in the public debate, that is one of the cardinal point the critics of Joachim raise.

As for your comparison with yourself and Joachim, sorry, can't use it.
As far as I understand it you are currently in process of getting an education. You have not served your country for 30 adult years, nor are you a member of the DRF, nor do you serve in the military.
You are at best comparable to Frederik when he studied at Harvard. Which is hardly a school-course.
But if we are to use you for comparison, I imagine you will attend courses in your field all through your career. Just like Joachim and most other military officers.
As for selling it. Good grief! The politicians and opinion makers are howling their heads off for people to educate themselves throughout their lives. Exactly what Joachim is doing. So the problem is...?

In the military, junior officers like lieutenants and captains have a basic staff training, in order to serve at a general staff.
However, when you reach the rank of major, you go back to school to get a higher staff education.
Once you reach the rank of full colonel you become a staff officer in your own right. I.e. that is the most junior level where you have your own staff.
Joachim is a full colonel.

The course Joachim attends is even higher. This is for future senior and specialized staff officers serving at the staff of a corps general (lieutenant-general) and up or at Defense Command level or as senior advisor at Ministry of Defense level.

Once he finish this course, some have speculated that he will return to active service, in which case he is likely to be promoted to major-general. And serve either in DK for a while as senior advisor or analyst or serve at a NATO HQ or IMO more likely, serve as a direct liaison between the defense commands in DK and France and as most likely be stationed in France.
(To use an example we all can relate to: After this course Joachim is the officer who is called in to personally brief the US President and/or the Joint Chief of Staffs regarding the security, military and political situation in a particular area. Say Iraq.
Or during Desert Storm, Joachim is one the officers who would council and brief General Colin Powell, prior to sending in and turning General Schwarzkopf and his army loose.
It's at that relative level.)

As for your suggestion that the politicians are afraid to interfere with the decisions of the DRF, that is IMO pure speculation.
It's the job of the sitting PM to advise the DRF and protect them from making mistakes. We simply do not know to what extent the PM put his/her foot down in regards to the DRF.
The politicians certainly did in regards to Frederik and IOC. He was actually issued an "advisor" to tell him what to vote and say. So your argument doesn't hold water there either.
  #51  
Old 10-26-2019, 09:58 PM
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I don't fully understand why you keep arguing something (that he is taking a relevant course) that nobody (at TRF) is disputing... For me as an interested reader and somewhat participant of the discussion, it makes it a bit hard to follow and have a conversation.

From my perspective, the only argument (and a valid one imo) that has been made is that Joachim and Marie (and the DRF) are not handling all of this well. And blaming 'others' is making things worse.

As I said previously, it would go a long way if they showed some acknowledgement that others might have valid concerns (and that of course a year abroad will impact their royal engagements this year - completely valid imo; so don't pretend otherwise); even though they personally think that their actions are completely justifiable. That's about being able to place yourself in another's position; a very important trait for a member of the royal family if they truly want to serve their people.

Having said that, I hope this year provides them a great experience and hopefully by the end of the year they and the DRF have a clearer vision of their future roles and will be able to communicate that accurately.
  #52  
Old 10-26-2019, 10:03 PM
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I'm merely trying to illustrate why it isn't just "some course."

I apologize if I over-explain things but what is obvious to me or you, may not be obvious to everybody else.
  #53  
Old 10-26-2019, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
I'm merely trying to illustrate why it isn't just "some course."

I apologize if I over-explain things but what is obvious to me or you, may not be obvious to everybody else.
Hope my little note helped to put things in perspective You may perceive it differently but from an outsider's perspective it is very clear that nobody was disputing it. Archduchess Zelia explained several times that the relevance is clear to her and another recent poster, O-H Anglophile, is also clearly in agreement

That's it for my 'intervention'; let's get back to the family's general news, such as the documentary. Is the main purpose indeed 'educational'; either in a broad sense (an informative documentary for the whole population - just like any other documentary that might be shown on tv) or in the sense of it being targeted at schools?!
  #54  
Old 10-26-2019, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Hope my little note helped to put things in perspective You may perceive it differently but from an outsider's perspective it is very clear that nobody was disputing it. Archduchess Zelia explained several times that the relevance is clear to her and another recent poster, O-H Anglophile, is also clearly in agreement

That's it for my 'intervention'; let's get back to the family's general news, such as the documentary. Is the main purpose indeed 'educational'; either in a broad sense (an informative documentary for the whole population - just like any other documentary that might be shown on tv) or in the sense of it being targeted at schools?!
and now for something really interesting...where can we see this famous documentary online
  #55  
Old 10-26-2019, 10:48 PM
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I'm sorry but I agree more with Muhler about this situation. I don't understand the criticism of Joachim and Marie over any of this in the least.

The way I've read some of the posts, there is a disparagement of the course Joachim is taking to justify criticism of his continuing to have his apanage while attending this course. And that criticism makes no sense to me under the circumstances.

I do not think education should end when you are in your 20s or is less important when you are 50. If you can advance your career or change your career by going to school at 50 (especially when your employer-in this case the Danish government--is supportive) that is fabulous and should be applauded.

And I also have an outsider's view.
  #56  
Old 10-27-2019, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
There really isn't much left of your arguments by now.
Sure. You're the one who feels the urge to take my comments out of context, practice selective reading of everything I write and attribute comments to me that I have never uttered, but I'm the one running out of arguments. Whatever helps you sleep at night

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Please, don't get upset, but you have a little tendency to take everything personal. You may not have argued that it was in your opinion wrong for Joachim to take his apanage with him to France. However, in the public debate, that is one of the cardinal point the critics of Joachim raise.
Based on the rhetoric you're turned to, are you sure you're in a position to tell me not to get upset? The reason I'm "taking it personal" is that I think it's unnecessary for you to twist my words to get your point across. When I talk about Joachim/the court failing to seek permission to take the apanage abroad, you turn it into a discussion of whether he should be allowed to bring the apanage at all ("if they thought it was a really bad idea for Joachim to continue receiving his apanage while in France, why didn't they let it be known to QMII?") When I write that it was obvious Joachim was gonna get heat in the press for not asking for permission to take his apanage abroad, you ask me why it's "obvious he would get heat for getting his apanage while studying in France?" I just think that's a curious thing to do.

I also disagree that the apanage itself has been a major point of criticism. EB specifically asked Joachim whether he thought the apanage should remain unchanged despite the fact that he undertakes considerably less engagements than he did before the move. So the way I see it, the real issue is the court's lack of transparency in regard to how the stay would affect their engagement count and not the apanage itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
As for your comparison with yourself and Joachim, sorry, can't use it (...)
Wasn't comparing myself to Joachim. Merely pointing out that there are different rules for different people. As I specifically mentioned in the first sentence of that same paragraph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
As for your suggestion that the politicians are afraid to interfere with the decisions of the DRF, that is IMO pure speculation.
It's the job of the sitting PM to advise the DRF and protect them from making mistakes. We simply do not know to what extent the PM put his/her foot down in regards to the DRF.
The politicians certainly did in regards to Frederik and IOC. He was actually issued an "advisor" to tell him what to vote and say. So your argument doesn't hold water there either.
History disagrees with you. But that's a whole other discussion.

It's funny because I actually know quite a lot about Frederik's IOC endeavours for reasons entirely irrelevant to this discussion. Therefore I'm fairly confident in what I'm arguing here. Not to start a new discussion about Frederik's shortcomings in the middle of one about J&M's but: He was indeed issued not just an advisor but an entire coordination group when he joined the IOC to secure that he'd retain his neutrality. As a matter of fact, it was the only reason he was allowed to join the IOC.

In 2016, however, he still managed to vote against an exclusion of Russia from the 2016 Summer Olympics. An exclusion that Bertel Haarder, the then Minister for Culture, had been very clear about supporting (something he has since maintained). Now, we know the ministry contacted the court several times in the days leading up to the IOC vote but we don't know what the inquiries ware about because the ministry has denied the press access to them. But perhaps even more interesting (for this discussion at least), at the time of the vote in August 2016, the coordination group hadn't been gathered for two and a half years which sort of defies its purpose.

This is an interesting subject I've spent an ungodly amount of time on so I could go on for days but I'll refrain because it isn't the right thread. I will, however, refute your claim that my argument "doesn't hold" because I think this is a pretty ace example of Danish politicians and their (for lack of a better English word) berøringsangst when it comes to the DRF. Frederik didn't face repercussions for voting against the wishes of the relevant ministry – rather, he was given the government's full support to serve another period with the IOC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
I'm merely trying to illustrate why it isn't just "some course."
Please point me in the general direction of me saying it is "just some course". In the literal last post I've written in this thread, I specifically noted that I'm not trying to diminish the prestige or the relevance of the course. As @Somebody noted, no one's disputed the legitimacy of the course Joachim's taking. I just don't agree that it is comparable to Frederik's stay at Harvard.
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  #57  
Old 10-27-2019, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
I'm sorry but I agree more with Muhler about this situation. I don't understand the criticism of Joachim and Marie over any of this in the least.

The way I've read some of the posts, there is a disparagement of the course Joachim is taking to justify criticism of his continuing to have his apanage while attending this course. And that criticism makes no sense to me under the circumstances.
Now I'm curious, where have you read that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
I do not think education should end when you are in your 20s or is less important when you are 50. If you can advance your career or change your career by going to school at 50 (especially when your employer-in this case the Danish government--is supportive) that is fabulous and should be applauded.
My argument was not that Joachim's course is more or less important than Frederik's courses at Harvard nor that he's too old to educate himself. My argument was that his situation can't be compared to Frederik's because the circumstances are different.
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  #58  
Old 10-27-2019, 05:12 AM
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Okay, let me try and sum up:

We agree:
It's okay for Joachim to study abroad.
It's okay for our Marie and the children to go with him.
It's okay for Joachim to continue receiving his apanage while there.
It's understandable they can only perform few official duties while there.
(Even though you admittedly expressed some scorn IMO that they had only performed two official duties during their first two months.)
That the court could have handled this better and explained it better to the public.
The course is both relevant, of value for Joachim and DK and prestigious.

- I believe this is what I have repeated over and over again all along.

Where we don't agree, or rather don't share the same view, is that you seemingly find it crucial that QMII on her own initiative should have formally asked the Parliament for permission.
Where I say: Why? The governments were fully informed, if they wanted a formal request surely they would have let it be known?
Apart from that: Who asks for permission to do something, if they feel they don't have to?

But we do agree that Joachim is not the person responsible for asking permission or not, right?

So that's pretty much it, right?

As for the apanage in France: The words I have been hearing on the street and reading the comments by the certifiable nutcases who comment on Ekstra Bladet: Is that the issue is more that he is getting an apanage at all while in France. (Because he is not doing any work etc.) Rather than the more academic issue of formally asking the Parliament. That is my clear perception.
I do seem to recall though you suggesting that he could live of his officer's wage. (Which he doesn't get. He is living of his apanage while attending his duties as an officer of the reserves.)

Finally, my explanation as to why I elaborate on Joachim's course was in response to Somebody, not you!

--------------------

As for the documentary, you can find it here: https://www.dr.dk/tv/se/prins-joachi...r-om-vores-tro

The nun Joachim was talking to was a real treasure BTW. What a lovely personality.
Having a discussion on sex and celibacy with a pretty intoxicated young man on a bus, and flooring him. That's style!
  #59  
Old 10-29-2019, 11:52 AM
Archduchess Zelia's Avatar
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By "expressed scorn", do you mean me noting that it'll never be unreasonable for the press to question their engagement count while in France so long as the court maintain their statement that J&M's patronages would be unaffected by the move?

As for the course, I think it holds considerably value for Joachim in the long run than it ever will for Denmark, but sure. I definitely agree that him being enrolled on the course is legitimised by the position he holds with the Danish military and therefore it's also defendable for him to receive his apanage while in France.

Nah, I don't find asking for permission particularly crucial in the context of EB's criticism. I think it would've made life easier for them if the court had bothered to follow procedure and personally, I think it's conceited to think they're above asking for permission, but that's really beyond the point I'm making. I also think the suggestion that either the royals themselves or the abundance of people they have hired somehow don't have the foresight to imagine that the press would dig into this is laughable. I strongly believe Joachim is able to think for himself, so of course him included (especially since he's always very adamant that the press treats him unfairly – why feed them a reason to write negatively about him?)

It's not about what the government wants. They seem to be fine with the DRF failing to ask for permission (and that's criticisable all on its own but also tied in closely with their fear of touching on DRF issues). It's about how failing to abide by the constitution looks which is why the court IMO should've felt like insisting on following procedure With all due respect, I like to think the government has better things to do than to make sure the DRF don't end up in media frenzies.

On my part, the discussion has never been about what you hear on the street or read in comments sections, but about the questions EB asked Joachim that Marie called "unreasonable" and why they're not. As for your recollection, no and yes. My argument was never that he shouldn't receive apanage while he was undertaking the course, I did however say that should he opt for a career abroad following the course, they should not remain funded by the state. I don't think that's unreasonable.

In reply to one of your replies to me, Somebody asked why you keep problematising something no one's been disputing. To that, you respond that you're elaborating to illustrate "why it isn't just some course". So I don't think it's a reach to assume you were referring to me. And again, I've never said it was "just some course".
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  #60  
Old 10-29-2019, 12:58 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Frederik studied at Harvard and he continued to receive his apanage. In fact the discussion back then was not about his apanage but the costs of having two PET officers there with him, in an additional apartment.

So there are different rules for Peter and Paul? Or rather Joachim and Frederik?
And Joachim continued to receive his apanage during his 1 year-stay in Australia and also during his stay in Hongkong although these working experiences primarily served himself and not Denmark.
So no, there were not different rules for Joachim and Frederik.

But just continue to omit everything that doesn't fit into your narrative of "unfairly treated Joachim". I noticed very well that it wasn't you who mentioned the controversy about Joachim's apanage in the first place. I guess it was too unimportant. But every time Frederik puts his hands into his pockets you find it worth mentioning. Different rules ???

Btw I totally agree with Archduchess Zelia regarding your annoying tactics and regarding Joachim I am actually far more critical than she.

Joachim was only in the army because he failed in everything else. And his job was so important. he wasn't even replaced. So, let's not talk whether he deserves the apanage. The real question is: Was there nobody in the Danish army more deserving to attend this important course. Or was Joachim personally invited? In any case many people have the feeling that once more something was thrown at him because he is the Queen's son and not because he is deserving (although the announcement presented him as the most suitable man).

It was also interesting to see that there was a business promotion tour to Paris, the place were they are currently living. And except for a dinner neither Joachim who you always claim is so good at this (I always disagreed)
nor Marie who is a native French speaker were in any way involved. Joachim had his course in the morning but in the afternoon he was able to visit an exhibition. And Marie has pretty much nothing to do after bringing her children to school. So no wonder a lot of people ask themselves what they are receiving an apanage for.
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