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  #21  
Old 10-16-2019, 08:42 PM
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As it is an honor to even be asked to attend this military training school in France and the press release from the Royal House indicates this training will assist Joachim in learning

"international relations in the areas of trade, politics, culture and military disciplines are debated and discussed, just as crisis management and experience exchange are among the topics."

How can that not help Denmark? I really don't get the criticism. This isn't a vacation.

http://kongehuset.dk/en/news/prince-...ning-in-france
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  #22  
Old 10-16-2019, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Totally agree and I'd like to add, speech is silver but silence is golden.
I think it's pretty arrogant of Marie to come forward and preach to the Danes what to think while enjoying a full apanage without doing any work.
Both of them seem rather tone-deaf. They seem to really think that they 'deserve' all of their privileges and do not deserve any criticism. Understanding where the criticism is coming from would go a long way...

I am personally totally fine with them receiving the apanage at least for this one year but the way they go about it seems to be the main problem.
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  #23  
Old 10-17-2019, 04:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
As it is an honor to even be asked to attend this military training school in France and the press release from the Royal House indicates this training will assist Joachim in learning

"international relations in the areas of trade, politics, culture and military disciplines are debated and discussed, just as crisis management and experience exchange are among the topics."

How can that not help Denmark? I really don't get the criticism. This isn't a vacation.
The criticism isn't aimed at the course or the fact that Joachim's taking it.

As I see it, the criticism can be divided into two separate points: Their inability to perform their engagements while in France and the apanage. Essentially, both are rooted in rookie mistakes from the court and their seemingly non-existent communications department.

On the subject of their workload, this would not have been an issue (or, the press would not have been able to make it an issue) if the court hadn't specifically noted that their patronages would not be affected by the move to France. Possibly the biggest own goal scored in newer history. It's simply a no-brainer that they won't be able to uphold their engagements living in a different country. But since that's what the court specified (and haven't backed down on), the Danish press is absolutely gonna keep a count of how many engagements they perform while in France. I don't think that's unreasonable and Marie (and Joachim) have only the communications department to thank for that. As I think I've mentioned before, no reasonable Dane would've batted an eye if the court had just been open about the fact that they won't be able to travel back and forth several times a week.

The first point is tied in closely with the second because it gives the press a reason to bring up one of their all-time favourite subjects: Are the royals really worth the money we throw after them? When the press can present a considerable decrease in J&M's number of engagements since the move to France, it legitimises criticism of the apanage. Is that reasonable? For time being, no. They still officially have plans of returning to Denmark and Joachim's taking the course in extension of his job with the Danish military, so it's justifiable for them to receive apanage for the duration of their stay. But again – no one's to blame but the communications department. If they'd just been open about the toll it was gonna take on their duties from the beginning, it would also be difficult for the press to make the argument about the apanage. Additionally, the court has allowed the subject of Joachim's apanage to be an even bigger issue by not asking for permission to take it abroad. Refusing to follow procedure is not exactly doing wonders for the general vibe around Joachim – or doing anything to remove the undertones of arrogance.

My take on Marie's comments is that if she feels the need to be this defensive after two (2) months, then she won't know what's gonna hit her. The press isn't gonna back down on this and the less engagements they total, the harder the press is gonna go on them. Also I think it's never done any royal good to meet criticism (that generally speaking really isn't that unreasonable) with such a harsh defence. I agree that that makes her come off uncharacteristically tone-deaf – especially seeing as, communications failures aside, the way her engagement count is affected is probably the most criticisable thing about the whole move.
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  #24  
Old 10-18-2019, 08:30 AM
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Marie was badly criticized as soon as she met Joachim... she was harassed by journalists, treated as an idiot when she tried to be friendly... before wedding, when she was independent and she liked her job, she was accused of being a "gold digger"... she was compared to Alexandra et Mary, always in a negative way... I understand that she does not support it anymore... she must love her husband a lot to support this... many others would have fled Denmark to never come back...
  #25  
Old 10-21-2019, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabelle de France View Post
Marie was badly criticized as soon as she met Joachim... she was harassed by journalists, treated as an idiot when she tried to be friendly... before wedding, when she was independent and she liked her job, she was accused of being a "gold digger"... she was compared to Alexandra et Mary, always in a negative way... I understand that she does not support it anymore... she must love her husband a lot to support this... many others would have fled Denmark to never come back...
I'd say this is a heavily modified version of reality.

First, someone as popular with the general public as Alexandra will always be a tough act to follow. Is that fair? Absolutely not, I wholeheartedly agree. They're two different people and they should be treated as such. But I also think it would've been difficult to avoid. A lot of people had to come to terms with the idea of Alexandra getting "replaced" which is silly, sure, but unless Joachim had waited 15 years to remarry, it was also bound to happen to any successor. As for the comparisons to Mary, Marie would never be able to dodge those. It's just a given – like how Frederik and Joachim routinely are compared in the Danish press. That women generally are pitted against each other much by the press more frequently and in a much harsher fashion is a whole other problem that extends way beyond royalty.

About the relationship with the press, I think it's a bit harsh to say she was harassed (especially in the light of the absolute smear campaign that's currently being run on Meghan over in the UK). Was the press interested in her every move? Of course. Just like they were interested in Mary's every move. Both had acquaintances who routinely opened their mouths to the Danish tabloids. And that's tough but it's sadly also what comes with the territory when you marry into royalty these days. The difference between Mary and Marie is that Marie made the mistake of becoming chummy with the press. You can't hold that against her as she was completely unexperienced in terms of living in the public eye back then, but I do think it was such a rookie mistake of Joachim and the court that they didn't warn her that that was a bad idea to invite the press inside. It just left her more vulnerable to criticism – especially with people already feeling a grudge against her as a "the other woman" figure ().

But I definitely think both the public opinion on and the press behaviour regarding Marie has changed a great deal since then. And that's courtesy of no one but Marie herself. In that sense, her openness has really worked in her favour post-marriage because it's given the Danes an insight into who she is as a person. I still remember when she stood in the Kongehuset indefra documentary and explained how important it was for her to learn Danish so she could talk to every Dane she met. That was so powerful and so moving. And she's so easy-going and unassuming in everything she does. That has really done wonders for her. Also, I think it should be noted that Marie is usually left out of the press' criticism of Joachim (as she should be – she shouldn't be held accountable for her husband's (more often than not) poor decisions).

That said, I think the victim narrative is sort of on par with defending Henrik's unreasonable behaviour towards QMII because "look at everything he gave up for her!" Like, unless the media scrutiny is as extreme as with Meghan in the UK currently (which it isn't at all in J&M's case), I think it's only fair to assume that the men and women marrying into the various royal families have been prepped for the potentiality of media storms. It comes with the territory that their actions are scrutinised and that people expect to "get their money's worth" of them, and if they're not prepared for that, they shouldn't have married into a royal family. These are hugely privileged people who are being held accountable for their actions (or, in Joachim's case now, something that has been communicated really poorly by his own comms department). If they can't handle that, nothing's stopping them from, as you suggest, getting out of the country and/or stepping down as working members of the DRF. Only then they'd have to accept that they can't stay funded by the Danish tax-payers. You can't eat your cake and have it too, and that's sort of what Marie's interview with Se & Hør makes me think is what she and Joachim really want. All the privileges and no pushback.
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  #26  
Old 10-21-2019, 01:51 PM
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While I agree with most of what you are saying, Archduchess Zelia, I nevertheless think you are a bit harsh on J&M.
I certainly agree with you that Marie has been treated very mildly and pretty fairly by the Danish press. As well as the public. She has a personality and approach that is easy to like, which is a great help.
A part of that is that she wear her heart on her sleeve. Our Marie absolutely sucks at being a hypocrite.
If she is enthusiastic, we see it.
If she is bored to the point of almost falling asleep, we see it.
If she is shocked, we see it.
Marie is such a rare thing; she is sincere.
So when she comes out and defends her husband and when she is angry on his behalf and feel he has been treated unfairly - that's Marie unfiltered. She is being honest. And explaining things as she see it.

You can agree with her point of view or not, it's no secret that I very much sympathize with her view.

Also, outside Se & Hør and the tabloids her frank outburst has hardly been mentioned at all elsewhere. And is sure isn't something people talk about on the street.

Anyway, let us hear some interesting words from Joachim himself, while M&F visited Paris.

Excerpt from article in Billed Bladet #42, 2019.
By Ulrik Ulriksen.

Who also asked Joachim a few questions at the now infamous reception.
Frederik was asked how it was to be reunited with Joachim:
"It's great to see my brother."

Joachim said: "It's great."

But how is he and Marie in the children in France, where they in many ways have a new life and new day to day existence?
J: "The ceiling is high in Paris." (Idiom, meaning there is more tolerance or more room to move.)

- Joachim is usually a stickler for being very precise in his expressions. And it is, to me at least, a little odd response. Which I interpret as the family feeling very well in France. Perhaps even feeling at home.
  #27  
Old 10-21-2019, 02:21 PM
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Oh, Muhler, I wish we had a Muhler-like clone to help us with every royal family! Your wisdom is much appreciated.
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  #28  
Old 10-21-2019, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
While I agree with most of what you are saying, Archduchess Zelia, I nevertheless think you are a bit harsh on J&M.
I certainly agree with you that Marie has been treated very mildly and pretty fairly by the Danish press. As well as the public. She has a personality and approach that is easy to like, which is a great help.
A part of that is that she wear her heart on her sleeve. Our Marie absolutely sucks at being a hypocrite.
If she is enthusiastic, we see it.
If she is bored to the point of almost falling asleep, we see it.
If she is shocked, we see it.
Marie is such a rare thing; she is sincere.
So when she comes out and defends her husband and when she is angry on his behalf and feel he has been treated unfairly - that's Marie unfiltered. She is being honest. And explaining things as she see it.

You can agree with her point of view or not, it's no secret that I very much sympathize with her view.

Also, outside Se & Hør and the tabloids her frank outburst has hardly been mentioned at all elsewhere. And is sure isn't something people talk about on the street.
How am I being too harsh on them?

I don't disagree that Marie is wearing her heart on her sleeve (which is brilliant the vast majority of the time) and I also don't doubt she thinks Joachim is being treated unfairly. But the latter, to me, also just demonstrates their recurring unwillingness to actually listen to the criticism Joachim's receiving and a completely misplaced frustration. Is it unreasonable for the press to hold J&M accountable for a statement their own communications department put out? Hardly. Is the press to blame for the communications department's inability to communicate a realistic expectation of their workload for the duration of the stay in France? Absolutely not.

And that brings us back to Joachim's perpetual Achilles' heel: Deflecting all criticism with self-pitying. I think he's lulled himself into a very unhealthy sense of everyone being out to get him and as such, he feels above listening to people's criticism. (This isn't even criticism, it's confronting them with something the court has said – ikke en kritik, men en konstatering, som Poul Nesgaard vist engang sagde). And that seems to have rubbed off on Marie.

If she felt it was an absolute necessity to comment (I still think she would've been better off just ignoring it), her message would've been so much more effective if she'd pointed out that Joachim's job with the military justifies him taking a demanding course that leaves little room for commuting back and forth between Denmark and France. It would also not be ineffective if she herself checked in for the odd engagement once in a while. I think that could lift a lot of the press scrutiny on them and the subject of their apanage. The way she went about this interview made it seem like they want to enjoy the privileges of royalty without having their actions questioned. And that does nothing to shake the perception of arrogance that she herself contests in the interview.

As for the bolded part, very little of what's discussed in this forum is something people on the street talk about
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  #29  
Old 10-21-2019, 04:43 PM
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Weeell, perhaps you should drop by Mariager one day.

Oh dear, we are not resuming our old duel again, I trust?

For starters in your response you just called Marie, arrogant. Our Marie may be accused of many things, but hardly arrogance. Not consciously.
And you also stated Joachim's self-pity. He never complained once when he took the full force of the public disappointment after the separation from Alexandra. He may have felt sorry for himself ( I sure would!) but he didn't say so.

But what I object against is the IMO un-nuanced view you have of in particular J&M, and which you expressed in your previous post.
I regocnice that even royals have feelings, where they feel personally hurt or unfairly treated. Whether that is justified or not is not the point. The point is that royals (also Joachim) are human beings.
Come on! They have been in France for two months! They have hardly unpacked and hung all the pictures up on the walls yet.
Joachim have been extremely busy with a six day a week course, and even though his French is no doubt brilliant it's nevertheless and advanced course in a foreign language. Let him get started.
And Marie, she has been left pretty much on her own, finding her footing with two children, a new home and new surroundings. It's after all quite a few years since she last lived in France.
Give her a chance to find her footing before demanding she should return to DK to do a job or two.

Having said that, I do agree with you that in glaring light of hindsight, it would have been better had the DRF said from the beginning that it would not be possible for J&M to carry out their duties in DK for the next year.

And finally: Allow me to remind you that J&M did represent Denmark at the recent memorial service for the former French President. And J&M did also represent DK at the reception at the recent visit by M&F to Paris.
How much more do you want?
Give them a break.
  #30  
Old 10-21-2019, 11:41 PM
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Consciously or unconsciously, I think suggesting the press is unreasonable for confronting them with a statement their own court has put out (and so far as I know, hasn't backtracked on) is arrogant regardless of who it's coming from. It's misdirected anger and as I've said before, it gives off the impression that they want all the privileges but can't pass a close review of their work.

You're asking people to feel sympathy for Joachim regardless of whether it's justified? I can see why you're so fond of Marie's interview then. But sure, I'm the one with the unnuanced views

"They did tally two (2) engagements over the course of three (3) months! Give them a break!" It's not about what I (or anyone else) want. This is Marie complaining to a nation-wide tabloid that the press is being unreasonable for bringing her and Joachim's apanage into question. Something the press has been given a solid outlet to do only because the court foolishly assured them that J&M's work wouldn't be affected by the move. (Something that, might I just add, hasn't just become obvious in hindsight – it always was).

Personally, I couldn't care less how much they do while in France because I didn't expect them to do much to begin with. (It's absurd to think they could rush back and forth between Denmark and France some once a week). My problem is that Marie's complaint is completely irrational and unfounded for reasons I've listed several times above. And so, I guess it's not so much what "I want" as it is that I don't particularly fancy someone in Marie's position of power telling the press off for asking legitimate questions.
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  #31  
Old 10-22-2019, 12:04 PM
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No, that's your impression.

You see a woman who is arrogant and now irrational for speaking out in indignation for her husband.
I see a human being, who genuinely feel her husband is being treated unfairly and says so openly.

She wasn't angry on her own behalf or felt sorry for herself. It was for her husband. Is that a flaw?
We all have flaws. One of mine is that I that I try to see things from the opposite angles and give people the benefit of doubt. Even when it's about people I don't like.
I don't hold it against someone for defending and speaking up for someone they love, even if I think they are wrong. On the contrary. I think that's an admirable trait.

You don't care how much they do. Well, that is very much the issue here. The issue is whether Joachim should continue to receive his apanage, while in France where "all he is doing is going to school all day. He doesn't do any work for DK or the DRF." Well, I just listed two things he did.
And QMII seem to believe he is. The governments said OK, so...

It's not like this is March 2020 and we haven't seen even a glimpse of J&M.
So how about giving them a little space before yelling: "Strip Joachim of his apanage!"
  #32  
Old 10-22-2019, 03:29 PM
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Well, yes. Some of it is my impression. Hence the I think part And your impression is different – the beauty of discussion forums. But I don't think it can be debatable that what the press asked Joachim isn't unreasonable as Marie insinuated. And I believe I've spent a lot of time in here arguing what that's not just my opinion.

I think it's a bit tiresome that in all our discussions on the subject of J&M, you try to push some narrative where I'm supposedly incapable of seeing things from other people's perspectives when in reality, it's not black and white like that. I think it's perfectly possible that Marie genuinely feels that she and Joachim are treated unfairly. I just hold very little sympathy for that because the basis on which the press has been "criticising" them (again, not so much criticism as confronting them with facts) is completely legitimate and J&M's seeming unwillingness to accept that does have arrogant undertones to me. Of course royals are humans and humans are flawed, but that doesn't mean you can't hold them responsible for their flaws.

Yes, it's about Joachim's workload for EB and BT because the little-to-no engagement count he's mustered so far juxtaposed with the court's statement that their patronages wouldn't be affected by the move enables the press to run their favourite (and presumably the most click-responsive) narrative in all their stories on the DRF: Are the royals worth the money we spend on them? And please, no one's been yelling anything Joachim was asked if he thought it was defendable for him to continue to receive apanage on the basis of undertaking two engagements over the course of three months. Something the press would've had a much more difficult time asking him if the court had been open about how the move would affect their workload.
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  #33  
Old 10-22-2019, 03:50 PM
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Question for the Danish posters: Is service in the military (even in military training) perceived as "different" from royal duties? I would have guessed both would be viewed as service to Denmark, so I've been surprised to see how much controversy this has generated.

Also, what do you all make of the stories that Joachim and Marie may not ever return to Denmark to live? Again, stories about this caught me by surprise. I had the impression that Joachim was fairly popular with the public.
  #34  
Old 10-22-2019, 04:38 PM
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Indeed, things are not black and white. That is very much the point I have been trying to make for the past pages.
My other point is that royals too are human beings and sometimes they act and react like human beings. (And thank heavens for that! Who wants soulless robots for royals?) A nuance that tends to be missing from your points.

You say the questions by the press were justifiable. I say they were provocative and out of place, considering the circumstances. I.e. a reception at the highest level in a foreign country.
Unfortunately but IMO very understandable Joachim reacted with anger - and the press got their story. Well, hurrah...

Apart from that I will argue that Joachim is right.
He is serving his country and the DRF while in France.

As I understand it, he was pretty much invited personally to attend the staff course by the French President. - As a part of the increasing military co-operation between DK and France BTW. Not least in Sahara, but now also very much between our navies.
Joachim has to be qualified, otherwise it would be an embarrassment. He is.
He has a staff education behind, otherwise he would not have been made a full colonel. He also has considerable staff experience behind him, both in the Defense Command and at brigade and division level.
He is fluent in French, is very well versed in French culture and on top of that is Francophile. Even better, he is full-blooded Prince to Denmark, which protocol and diplomatically is a huge advantage. And he has a lot of experience in regards to diplomacy and representation.
All that will in my estimation put him ahead of practically all other Danish officers at his level.
Ergo he is serving Denmark. Both by attending the course as well as help tying strings to certainly future higher French military staff officers as well as diplomats (who also attends part of this course.)

Joachim and our Marie are currently the highest ambassadors, so to speak, Denmark has in France and they have represented Denmark on two occasions - two months into their stay there.
Ergo he is serving the DRF.

France don't invite Joachim to attend one of the most prestigious military courses, just because of his pretty blue eyes. It is in French interests to have close connections with their allies. Here via Joachim, who is at a level, where he is actually heard. I.e. he is not just any army colonel.
Ergo Joachim is serving Danish national interests.

Okay, perhaps someone should have explained all that before he even went to France. Indeed, perhaps they should.
However, it is very much my impressions that when it comes to Joachim, quite a few have a tendency to have a very selective hearing. Willfully or not...

It's fun to play the "bad brother" of the family, I doubt very much it's much fun to be literally hailed as the "bad brother."
And as I have pointed out so many times before in this debate, Royals are humans too and sometimes they feel unfairly treated and sometimes they snap.

Joachim didn't choose his life.
He was born to be the spare. - He accepted that. QMII has expressed her admiration for that.
He was not allowed to become a firefighter or whatever he dreamed about becoming. You are gonna be a farmer, Joachim, and take over a derelict manor. - Joachim did that.
And while being a farmer, you are going to attend your royal duties. Also during the years where your older brother was away studying in USA, sailing the North Atlantic or being away for weeks at a time with the Frogman Corps. Or while trekking in Greenland. - Joachim did that.
Then he got divorced from at the time probably the most popular woman in DK. And he took the full heat of that and had to suck it up. - He sucked it up.
He had to throw in the towel at Schackenborg and was declared a public failure. Admittedly that wasn't handled that well. And it is here in my view that we see the first real cracks in Joachim's armor.
If I'm allowed to speculate for a moment, I will not rule out that he was suffering from a depression. hence why we haven't seen that much to him in a DRF context.
Anyone who has had a depression or undergone therapy will know that you don't get over that easily. And you can easily relapse.
That BTW is one of the reasons for my little pet-theory that J&M are now quietly opting out of the DRF.
It is admittedly only speculations, perhaps more for those who believe royals can be humans too.

And please, don't tell me that Joachim could just have opted out of the DRF earlier. Look at the mess that has created in Norway. Joachim could not opt out without rocking the boat too much.

So yes, Joachim is right.
And Marie is right in defending him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalnel View Post
Question for the Danish posters: Is service in the military (even in military training) perceived as "different" from royal duties? I would have guessed both would be viewed as service to Denmark, so I've been surprised to see how much controversy this has generated.
For some it is, as is evident from this discussion. I happen to agree with you, that military service can also very much be serving the DRF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalnel View Post
Also, what do you all make of the stories that Joachim and Marie may not ever return to Denmark to live? Again, stories about this caught me by surprise. I had the impression that Joachim was fairly popular with the public.
Never truly popular. In the 90's when Frederik was seen by many (including myself) as immature, Joachim was respected more than liked, for acting royal and tending to his royal duties.

IMO Joachim has inherited his fathers mantel so to speak. In every soap-opera, which is unfortunately also what royals families are and presumably always have been, there has to be a favorite villain. Today that's Joachim.
Joachim is more introvert than say his brother, he also has a more stand-offish personality, that some like to call arrogant. He is not easy to like.
That's trait he shares with many people - until you get to know them.
I respect him a lot, and as you know I sympathize with him, but I doubt he and I would ever be friends.
  #35  
Old 10-23-2019, 05:57 AM
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The next six Wednesdays Prince Joachim tells in a number of TV programs the history of the Danes.


'“Let me say right away: I’m nervous today. For tonight there is a premiere on the TV program “Prince Joachim tells …”, where I tell and explain Danish history in the best broadcast time. This past year I have been part of the editorial team behind and visited Tallinn in Estonia, where the myth of our flag, Dannebrog, originated. All to describe faith, democracy, school, borders, law, and symbols, and how this has become part of us throughout history.
The first part can be seen tonight on DRK at 20.45. I hope you guys will watch. Sincerely, Prince Joachim.“



https://www.instagram.com/p/B387tS1A5_d/

https://www.facebook.com/detdanskeko...9515725573534/
  #36  
Old 10-23-2019, 07:21 AM
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I agree with everything Muhler has said about Joachim and Marie lately. He's been given a rough ride by the media lately because of a situation where the main blame lies with how it's been communicated and handled by the Royal PR not with him personally.
  #37  
Old 10-23-2019, 12:35 PM
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Thanks everyone for their points of views.
I still don't agree with how Marie responded. Telling people they should be proud...well they can make that decision themselves.
This French course is worthwhile in my opinion for Joachim, but the Danes do have a right to question.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eya View Post
The next six Wednesdays Prince Joachim tells in a number of TV programs the history of the Danes.


'“Let me say right away: I’m nervous today. For tonight there is a premiere on the TV program “Prince Joachim tells …”, where I tell and explain Danish history in the best broadcast time. This past year I have been part of the editorial team behind and visited Tallinn in Estonia, where the myth of our flag, Dannebrog, originated. All to describe faith, democracy, school, borders, law, and symbols, and how this has become part of us throughout history.
The first part can be seen tonight on DRK at 20.45. I hope you guys will watch. Sincerely, Prince Joachim.“



https://www.instagram.com/p/B387tS1A5_d/

https://www.facebook.com/detdanskeko...9515725573534/
thanks Eya.
It does look interesting, (Im still working on my Danish though)

more info
H.K.H. Prins Joachim medvirker i tv-programmet "Prins Joachim fortæller..." | Kongehuset
  #38  
Old 10-23-2019, 10:32 PM
Archduchess Zelia's Avatar
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Join Date: Jun 2009
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It is so wildly redundant to have to repeat myself over and over again because you insist on putting words into my mouth or reading various motives into my posts, so I'm not exactly sure what point it serves to continue this discussion. A few notes, however:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Indeed, things are not black and white. That is very much the point I have been trying to make for the past pages.
My other point is that royals too are human beings and sometimes they act and react like human beings. (And thank heavens for that! Who wants soulless robots for royals?) A nuance that tends to be missing from your points.
I think you see what you want to see, Muhler. Perhaps I'm guilty of the same – but please spare me the nonsensical narrative that I'm somehow emotionally detached because I disagree with you and refuse to buy into a narrative that because royals are flawed beings like the rest of us, they shouldn't be held accountable for said flaws. It's such a childish attempt to derail the discussion and the argument I'm making, and frankly not a good look for someone who on several occasions has attempted to lecture me on the basis of being older and more experienced than me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
You say the questions by the press were justifiable. I say they were provocative and out of place, considering the circumstances. I.e. a reception at the highest level in a foreign country.
Unfortunately but IMO very understandable Joachim reacted with anger - and the press got their story. Well, hurrah...
The timing of the questioning has no impact on whether or not the questions themselves are justifiable. It will never be unreasonable for the press to confront Joachim with a clear discrepancy in the information communicated by the court and how it's actually being done. It'll also never be unreasonable for the press to ask him to elaborate on a job he receives full funding from the Danish state to undertake.

Additionally, it's my understanding that this was the first opportunity the press had been given to ask them these questions. If they have dodged requests for comments ahead of the reception, it's naïve to think the press won't make use of the occasion to inquire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Okay, perhaps someone should have explained all that before he even went to France. Indeed, perhaps they should.
However, it is very much my impressions that when it comes to Joachim, quite a few have a tendency to have a very selective hearing. Willfully or not...
Wouldn't know that, would we? Because once again, they didn't try to explain. And I think experience shows that when Joachim has actually attempted to open up about himself and what he's doing, he's received a positive response (the documentary from 2017, the interviews he did for his 50th birthday and the documentary series that premiered today – alongside the very lovely IG post he put out about it – comes to mind).

It's very easy to hide behind the idea that everyone have bad intentions for you and to grow comfortable in that position. My argument is just that it's not sustainable in the long run (and it definitely won't improve their situation) if Joachim and seemingly also Marie let this idea get in the way of rational thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
(...)

So yes, Joachim is right.
And Marie is right in defending him.
For starters, great nuance!

As for your op-ed on how Joachim is "right": Sure he is. I just don't see how it relates to the point I'm making. I haven't questioned whether or not they should be allowed to bring their apanage to France – on the contrary, I think it's perfectly justifiable as he's there in capacity of his job with the Danish military.

And if that had been all Marie said in that interview, I wouldn't bat an eye. But suggesting that the press is unreasonable for asking questions about them enjoying tax-payer money outside of the country (something they didn't seek permission for) while tallying zero in-country engagements (despite the fact that their own court assured that the move would have no impact on their ability to maintain their engagements) is simply indefensible to me. Regardless of how tiresome it must be to have to clean up their own comms department's mess, which is what this comes down to, it's not sustainable to essentially tell the press (and as such, the Danes – regardless of the talk in the streets of Mariager, EB and BT would not keep digging if their readers weren't interested) to keep their noses to themselves. It's perfectly possible to let it be known that she supports her husband without tiptoeing the border to, for lack of a better word in English, magtfuldkommenhed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I agree with everything Muhler has said about Joachim and Marie lately. He's been given a rough ride by the media lately because of a situation where the main blame lies with how it's been communicated and handled by the Royal PR not with him personally.
Absolutely. But surely the press is not to blame for the communications department's ****-ups? So they should direct their frustrations at their own court's ridiculous handling and not the press asking legitimate questions.
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  #39  
Old 10-24-2019, 12:49 PM
Muhler's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia View Post
It is so wildly redundant to have to repeat myself over and over again because you insist on putting words into my mouth or reading various motives into my posts, so I'm not exactly sure what point it serves to continue this discussion. A few notes, however:



I think you see what you want to see, Muhler. Perhaps I'm guilty of the same – but please spare me the nonsensical narrative that I'm somehow emotionally detached because I disagree with you and refuse to buy into a narrative that because royals are flawed beings like the rest of us, they shouldn't be held accountable for said flaws. It's such a childish attempt to derail the discussion and the argument I'm making, and frankly not a good look for someone who on several occasions has attempted to lecture me on the basis of being older and more experienced than me.



The timing of the questioning has no impact on whether or not the questions themselves are justifiable. It will never be unreasonable for the press to confront Joachim with a clear discrepancy in the information communicated by the court and how it's actually being done. It'll also never be unreasonable for the press to ask him to elaborate on a job he receives full funding from the Danish state to undertake.

Additionally, it's my understanding that this was the first opportunity the press had been given to ask them these questions. If they have dodged requests for comments ahead of the reception, it's naïve to think the press won't make use of the occasion to inquire.



Wouldn't know that, would we? Because once again, they didn't try to explain. And I think experience shows that when Joachim has actually attempted to open up about himself and what he's doing, he's received a positive response (the documentary from 2017, the interviews he did for his 50th birthday and the documentary series that premiered today – alongside the very lovely IG post he put out about it – comes to mind).

It's very easy to hide behind the idea that everyone have bad intentions for you and to grow comfortable in that position. My argument is just that it's not sustainable in the long run (and it definitely won't improve their situation) if Joachim and seemingly also Marie let this idea get in the way of rational thinking.



For starters, great nuance!

As for your op-ed on how Joachim is "right": Sure he is. I just don't see how it relates to the point I'm making. I haven't questioned whether or not they should be allowed to bring their apanage to France – on the contrary, I think it's perfectly justifiable as he's there in capacity of his job with the Danish military.

And if that had been all Marie said in that interview, I wouldn't bat an eye. But suggesting that the press is unreasonable for asking questions about them enjoying tax-payer money outside of the country (something they didn't seek permission for) while tallying zero in-country engagements (despite the fact that their own court assured that the move would have no impact on their ability to maintain their engagements) is simply indefensible to me. Regardless of how tiresome it must be to have to clean up their own comms department's mess, which is what this comes down to, it's not sustainable to essentially tell the press (and as such, the Danes – regardless of the talk in the streets of Mariager, EB and BT would not keep digging if their readers weren't interested) to keep their noses to themselves. It's perfectly possible to let it be known that she supports her husband without tiptoeing the border to, for lack of a better word in English, magtfuldkommenhed.
Hmm, did I strike a nerve?

I must admit I'm confused (probably because I'm old.) Now we are all of a sudden in agreement!
Joachim should continue to receive his apanage. - Fine, now that is in place. And as such we also agree that Joachim was right.

As for asking permission. Both the former and the present government has okayed Joachim receiving his apanage while in France. There has been no major move, let alone a majority, in the Parliament, questioning that decision. Not before, nor after the recent general election.
So Joachim is right in the sense that he has secured the right to continue receiving his apanage.

The press has very much gone after Joachim himself, in regards to receiving the apanage in France. Despite the fact that the decision was not his. That was up to QMII, approved by the governments and ultimately by the Parliament.
So Marie was right in saying that Joachim has been treated unfairly.

You have on several occasions ridiculed Joachim for being angry and for "whining" just to mention two examples.
You demand, literally, that they remain rational at all times and are answerable presumably at all times to the press.
I don't say you are emotionally detached. I say you have shown a deliberate lack of compassion and empathy in regards to Joachim in particular, but also Marie in this matter.
Now you are angry with me for pointing that out. You feel, I conclude, I have treated you unfairly, harshly, overbearing etc. That a very human feeling. A human trait royals also have...

Royals are humans. They too get angry. They too get irrational. They too become stubborn. They too feel unfairly treated from time to time. And sometimes they lash out.
That's the main-point I've been trying to hammer in over the last pages of this thread!
And that is something I believe is crucially important to keep in mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eya View Post
The next six Wednesdays Prince Joachim tells in a number of TV programs the history of the Danes.


'“Let me say right away: I’m nervous today. For tonight there is a premiere on the TV program “Prince Joachim tells …”, where I tell and explain Danish history in the best broadcast time. This past year I have been part of the editorial team behind and visited Tallinn in Estonia, where the myth of our flag, Dannebrog, originated. All to describe faith, democracy, school, borders, law, and symbols, and how this has become part of us throughout history.
The first part can be seen tonight on DRK at 20.45. I hope you guys will watch. Sincerely, Prince Joachim.“



https://www.instagram.com/p/B387tS1A5_d/

https://www.facebook.com/detdanskeko...9515725573534/
I watched the first segment, lasting 30 minutes, and focusing on religion in Denmark.
Okay, such a huge topic as religion from basically the Bronze Age to modern day cannot be more than introductory in 30 minutes. As such I thought it was bit shallow. It could hardly be anything more.
We saw Joachim as part narrator (something he does very well! You can tell he is used to giving lectures and speak in front of a crowd) and part acting on behalf of the inquisitive viewer. I.e. talking informally with various Danes in the know - and more importantly allowing those he spoke to to speak. (Quite a few docu-hosts could learn from that!) You can sense von Lowzow's style in this.
It has been very much noticed that Joachim addressed and was addressed with informal you.

So in conclusion: I don't think this is a series I will watch twice.

I understand it is very much intended to be used in schools as a basis for the topic, who are we, the Danes? And how did we become, who we are?
It can, I think, perhaps also be used as a basic introduction to Danish history and culture for foreigners.
  #40  
Old 10-24-2019, 01:18 PM
Majesty
 
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Joachim got good reviews from his documentary.
https://www.bt.dk/royale/prins-joach...-et-klogt-valg
And it was pointed out that this time he did not correct anyone for not using the formal "you". Everyone can learn

Maybe I have missed things but I dont feel Marie has received unreasonable criticism. I think the press is pretty warm to her. That's why I was shocked with her reaction. And still, telling people that they should feel proud was an error.
But we will see her in two weeks in Denmark. She has a few events lined up and that is great to see.
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