General News about Joachim, Marie and Family 2: August 2009 - January 2011

[Kataryn]

This is my first answer on the Royal forums but I've been a reader for a long time. So I know how much Muhler and other Danish members have done for all readers interested in the Danish Royal family. Thank you very much for that. I really like the way the way the Danish Royal family shows themselves to the public and I believe they are nice people who like the other members of their family. My favorite is princess Marie with her sunny and sweet personality. But I think you might be wrong, Muhler, when you think that she acquired her taste of roast pork in Denmark. I, too, believe that the Danish version of roast pork is one of the best because of that wonderful crackling crust and the delightful combination of sweet and sour side dishes, but this is just a variation of the pork roast which is typical for the alpine regions between Switzerland, Austria, Germany and even Italy (South Tyrolia, Trentino, Lombardia and Veneto). So Marie must have had roast pork before when going to ski for roast pork dishes are a traditional staple at alpine huts and mountain restaurants. And I believe Marie is the person to delight in trying authentic and local dishes.

[Muhler]

Congratulations on your first post, Kataryn

Thank you for your kind and encouraging words.
You are probably right in regards to roast pork, in that case the dish may have reminded the fair Marie of home.

[Muhler]

The tabloid BT has finally unveiled a little more from their interview with Joachim recently: Prins Joachim afviser: Vi har det godt sammen - Royale - BT.dk

Especially in regards to his relationship with Frederik.

The interview took place while Joachim was visiting Ghana, so it's questionable how much of an interview it really was.

Anyway here are the quotes from the articles:

First in regards to Frederik, where the article states that Joachim responed in his usual professional and somewhat guarded manner.

"The relationship between myself and the Crown Prince is really good. We are brothers to each other. The magazines who will sell stories based on nothing but fiction, can write whatever they want. They do not concern/trouble me or the Crown Prince".

"What is occasionally written are not the realities. It's as simple as that. None of us allow ourselves to be shook up/concerned about what is written. I am on the other hand proud that I within a few months will become a double-uncle. I'm looking forward to the event".

About the recent book by Prince Henrik he said:
"I think it's a good book. The family has received it well and has with interest read the interviews. There are many things in the book I cannot recognice and other things I never knew about. And I will not say anything about what I did not know about. But it's funny reading. I percieve my father in my way and that's good".

[nwinther]

Princess Marie has gotten her (new) crest mounted in Frederiksborg Slostkirke (Church of Frederiksborg) along with her fathers'.

Marie and her father have recieved the right to have their crests displayed in the church, Marie because she's holder of the Order of the Elephant, Alain because he's the holder of the Grand Cross of the Order of Dannebrog.

To see the crests click on the link below (click on the images to see a slightly larger version) - followed by an article in Danish.
Se prinsesse Maries nye våbenskjold

[Muhler]

Thank you, nwinter for a most interesting post.

Here is the translation of the article:

Se Princesse Maries nye våbenskjold - See Princess Marie's new crest.
Written by Mia Qvist Scheelsbeck.

Prince Joachim, Princess Marie and Allan Cavallier were present, when the latter two's crest were placed on the walls in the Knights Chapel of the Royal Orders in Frederiksborg castle chapel.
Princess Marie is Knight of the Order of the Elephant, while Allan Cavaller recieves his crest as holder of the Grand Cross of the Order of Dannebrog.

Princess Marie's crest is shown - as is tradition for Danish Princesses (*) - together with Prince Joachims crest (**) in a socalled alliance-crest.
The crest is also crowned with the order of rank for princes and princesses.

In both crests the main motif is a horse, which refers to the name of the family line Cavallier, which means rider/horseman/knight.
There are three secondary figures in Princess Marie's crest, which are hearts with a fleur de lys cut into them. That is the combination of the heart, which is a Danish symbol (***) and the fleur de lys, which is a French symbol. Beside that there is an attribut for the Virgin Mary, which refer to the christian name of the Princess.

In Allan Cavallier's crest the secondary figures are fleur de lys, as a French symbol.
The colors in the two crests are silver (white), red and blue, which are parts of both the Danish and the French flags.

(*) Princesses of Denmark. I.e. princesses who are married into the DRF.

(**) Actually his coat of arms, as the crest is the whole shield.

(***) Hearts are used in the Danish national crest.

[Muhler]

And if someone could dig up Mary's crest and merge it with this post, please.

Translation of article in Billed Bladet:

Billed Bladet #20, 2007-05-18.

Her er Marys våbenskjold – Here is Mary’s crest.

- “It’s about the greatest achievement you can aspire to”, says the 27 years old Ronny Andersen proudly, while he looks up at wall in the Knights Chapel (Ridderkapellet) at Frederiksborg Slot. Here Crown Princess Mary’s crest has just been hung up and Ronny is looking forward to see it. Because he designed it, just as he is master of the crest given to her father. The two crests are Ronny Andersen’s debut as royal painter of coats of arms and he has worked on them for a year and a half. During that time the sketches have been presented for both Crown Princess Mary and John Donaldson in Kancellihuset and at Århus University.
- “We thoroughly discussed how the crests should be designed. The Donaldson family has its roots in Scotland and as that is a country with particularly strong heraldic traditions and with strict rules in that field everything had to be in perfect order”, says Ronny Andersen who lives and work in Esbjerg.
Crown Princess Mary received the Order if the Elephant on the 9th of May 2004, fives days prior to her wedding to Crown Prince Frederik and on the same day her father became knight of the Grand Cross of the Order of Dannebrog. That means that in accordance with regulations royal orders of knights that they must have a crest with their coat of arms and proverb hanging on the wall in the chapel of the royal orders in Frederiksborgs Slotskirke. Crown Princess Mary’s crest is historical in the sense that no crest belonging to a Danish crown princess has been hung there previously, just as it hasn’t got a proverb either.

The writing on the edges of the crests in the Knights Chapel is traditionally in Latin, but as the title “crown princess” does not translate directly to Latin and as there is no precedence among the existing crests, the text ended up being: Mary, Princess of Denmark, the wife of the Crown Prince. Written in Latin naturally. (**)
During the work on the Mary and her father’s crests the wish has been that their coat of arms should be as close to what it would have been in Scotland, but also contain some very personal elements from the Donaldson-clan. That John Donaldson also associates himself with the MacDonaldson-clan was clear at the wedding of the CP couple where he wore the kilt of the MacDonaldson-clan and also in his speech to the bridal couple at the dinner in the evening also referred to the history of the clan.
The red double-eagle, on which a black galley with oars and silver-flag is present on both crests, but whereas Mary in the blue shield-head (top part of a shield with heraldics) has a gold-rose between two seven-pointed gold-stars, her father has the mathematical sign for infinity. A reference to his work as mathematician. The proverb “Ad Infinitium” means “Towards Infinity”.
Ronny Andersen has painted Mary’s crest as an alliance-crest with the crest of the Crown Prince, for which there is a tradition in regards to women who have married into the DRF. The coat of arms is crowned with the special crown-prince-crown specified by Christian V in 1693.
Crown Princess Mary’s crest is hanging between the crests of the Crown Prince and Prince Joachim. They got theirs on the 14th of Fabruary 1972 on the day their mother was proclaimed Oueen of Denmark. Above their hang the crest of Prince Henrik and on top the crest of Queen Margrethe.

Written by Anna Johannesen.

A little explanatory not for those who are unfamiliar with the fascinating but also pretty complicated subject of heraldic.
A crest: The entire thing hanging on the wall.
The shield: The painted shield inside every crest. The painting, also called a coat of arms, served as an identification and gave everyone an overview of your family relations. These paintings would also be on a coat worn above your armour in battle. Hence the word: coat of arms.

(**) Mary Principissa Daniae Regni Heredis Conjux Die IX Maji an MMIV.

[FasterB]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Beside that there is an attribut for the Virgin Mary, which refer to the christian name of the Princess.

Can anyone determine where this attribut is?

Originally Posted by Muhler

And if someone could dig up Mary's crest and merge it with this post, please.

We have it here: Danish Royal Watchers: Mary's new coat of arms

And Mr. John Donaldson´s C-o-A is there too

Or perhaps even better here: http://www.heraldryaustralia.org/news_and_events.htm#denmark

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by FasterB

Can anyone determine where this attribut is?

No, can't see anything either.

Thanks for the additional info, you supplied.

[FasterB]

Originally Posted by Muhler

No, can't see anything either.

Thanks for the additional info, you supplied.

Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one who can't see this attribut :) :) :)

Muhler, I'm always glad when I can add to your posts :) :) :)

[Muhler]

More on crests from my archive:

Part one.

Kristeligt Dagblad.

Våbenskjold på rette plads – Crest on the right place.

Heraldics: Crown Princess Mary’s, Crown Princess Victoria’s and professor John Donaldson’s crests can now be seen in Ridderkapellet = The Knights Chapel at Frederiksborg Slot in Hillerød.

Crown Princess Mary and Crown Princess Victoria’s crests as knights of the Order of the Elephant are now in the right places in Ridderkapellet at Frederiksborg Slot in Hillerød.

Prior to that has gone several years of intense heraldic studies and artistic considerations. The third new crest in The Knights Chapel is that of Mary’s father, professor John Donaldson as a knight of the Order of Dannebrog.

His crest is placed on the wall next to grand-cross-knights as the parents of Prince Henrik, Prince Richard’s mother and former chief of court Søren Haslund Christensen. John Donaldson has taken the proverb “Ad infinitum”, which means “Towards infinity” and refers to the professions as professor in mathematics.

All three crests have been placed in the Knights Chapel in connection with the visit of the Swedish royal couple recently.

Crown Princess Victoria was several years ago made knight of the Order of the Elephant.

That’s why she according to the tradition from 1693 must have here crest on the wall. It hangs next to her parents King Carl Gustaf, Queen Silvia the sister of the King, Princess Christina, the youngest of the Swedish Haga-princesses, who is also knight of the Order of the Elephant.

A slow work process has gone before that. First a crest must be designed. Symbolic language and composition of colours must be approved by Swedish and Danish heraldists. Then the drawings has to be made on a copper-plate and hung on the prescribed place in the Knights Chapel. But it does not end there.

The coat of arms must also be drawn and coloured in Ridderbogen = the Book of Knights from 1693. That means in a protocol consisting of many volumes with all the crests of knights until this day. The book of Knights is thus a cultural-historical treasure, which is kept behind lock and key in Hofmarskallatet. (*)

Mary’s crest has a very distinct story. It is the first time a Danish crown princess has her crest placed in the Knights Chapel, as the Order of the Elephant was only opened for women in 1958.

That happened in connection with the eighteenth birthday of the then heir to the throne, Princess Margrethe on the 16th of April. On the same day King Frederik IV appointed Queen Ingrid to Knight of the Order of the Elephant. The sisters of the heir to the throne, Princess Benedikte and Princess Anne-Marie were also Knight of the Order of the Elephant on their eighteenth birthdays.

Heraldry and thus the teaching of crests and coat of arms stems back to the 1100’s (**) and served to identify the armoured knights. The custom quickly spread all over Europe, where coats of arms became heredity in noble families.

Back then a distinct heraldic style with clear and strict styling arose. – And the rules apply to this day. The story about the making of the three new crests started on the 9th of May 2004.

On that day John Donaldson was made Knight of the Order of Dannebrog, and Mary became Knight of the Order of the Elephant. A solemn day. Five days before the wedding of the 14th of May 2004 Mary Donaldson’s status was changed to Crown Princess.

“Mary Principissa Daniae Regni Herendis Conjus”, is what is written in Latin around the coat of arms, and that means: “Mary, Princess of Denmark, the wife of the Crown Prince”. Because hardly had the court in the autumn of 2003 announced the engagement between Mary Donaldson and Crown Prince Frederik before the historians and heraldists began to speculate in Ordenskapitlet (***) = the Chapter of Orders and in Rigsarkhivet = The Archive of the Realm. The heraldic processor of the state, archivist and senior-researcher Nils Bartholdy went to work in seeking here and there in old books in order to find heraldic information.

While historians and heraldists pondered the entire Denmark was bursting from excitement because of all the happiness in the DRF. The whole world watched from the side. But in the Chapter of Orders the question once again was: Who is Australian Mary Donaldson from Tasmania? How can she be identified? How does her crest look? Or perhaps a new crest should be made for her as Crown Princess and for her father as Knight of the Grand Cross (of the Order of Dannebrog)?

It was professor John Donaldson who showed the flag when he on the 14th of May 2004 went up the aisle in the Scottish kilt of the MacDonald-clan. In the wedding speech he spoke in depth about the history of the clan. In that way he had identified himself and his daughter. Mary is Scottish on all sides of her pedigree. The MacDonald-clan is large, and Scotland has rich heraldic traditions. Nils Bartholdy had already made contacts to colleagues in Scotland and the work started in finding the heraldic symbols of the MacDonald-clan.

Many tourists find their way to the Knights Chapel in Frederiksborg Slotskirke (church) and they often stop it the large crest of the Queen with all the symbols which identify the Regent of Denmark.

The Crown and the coat of arms is framed by the chains of the Order of the Elephant and the Order of Dannebrog, the coat of arms divided into four with hearts and lions, two Southern Jutlandic lions (****), the ram as symbol for the Faroe Islands, and the polar bear for Greenland. To that comes the field with the three crowns, a heraldic leftover from the time of the Kalmar-union (*****), a symbol heraldists still argue about. All of it kept together by a vertical beam in yellow and red, which is the colour of the Oldenburgers (******). Beneath the personal crest of the Queen hangs the Prince Consorts an beneath that the Crown Prince and Prince Joachim’s with Crown Princess Mary’s new alliance-crest in between.

[Muhler]

Part two:

So in the Knights Chapel the history is alive and well and connects past and present in an exciting way.

The three crests:

John Donaldson’s crest:
John Donaldson became a knight of the Order of Dannebrog on the 9th of May 2004, when he was made Knight of the Grand Cross. It is that cross you see in the bottom of the crest. On the black background it states that this is Mr. John Donaldson’s crest and that it was given on the 9th of May 2004, five days before he became father-in-law to Crown Prince Frederik. On top it says “Ad infinitum”, which means “Towards infinity”, which is the proverb of John Donaldson. It refers to his career as professor in mathematics. The coat of arms itself is a two-headed eagle covered by a black galley. That is the coat of arms of the MacDonald-clan and above in the blue field of the head of the shield, are two seven pointed stars which frame the mathematical symbol for the infinity. The seven pointed starts are a reference to Australia, as the Australians use the seven pointed stars in their heraldic. Above the shield (on which the coat of arms is painted) is a helmet of rank, which knights of the Grand Cross are entitled to use in their crest and on top of the helmet is a red lion. That is used in Scotland as well as in Tasmania and it’s capital, Hobart, where the family lived during most of Crown Princess Mary’s childhood.
(The rank helmet is incidentally of a type used during the 1400 and 1500’s).

Crown Princess Mary:
Just like her father Crown Princess Mary also got her order, the Order of The Elephant, on the 9th of May 2004 and that is evident on her crest. As the word crown princess does not exist in Latin, they have had to rewrite the text a little. So that it is stated that Mary is Princess of Denmark, the wife of the Crown Prince. That is also evident from the crown placed on top of the two shields, which is inside the crest of the Crown Princess. The crown is the crown of the Crown Prince and is different from the monarch’s crown. When the Crown Princess has two shields inside her crest, it is because there in Denmark is a tradition for women who is married into the DRF get their own coat of arms and the royal Danish coat of arms. The shield to the left in the crest of the Crown Princess is thus the coat of arms of the DRF.
That consists of four fields. Two fields have the three Danish lions. One field has the two Schlesvigan lions and finally in the last field the Faroe goat, the Greenlandic polar bear and the three crowns symbolizing the Kalmar-union. On top of it all is a red and yellow shield, which is the shield of the Oldenburg-family. The shield to the right however is the Crown Princess’ own. At the bottom is the coat of arms of the MacDonald-clan and in the head of the shield the Crown Princess has, just as her father, the two seven pointed stars as symbol for Australia. In between is a heraldic rose, which the Crown Princess herself has chosen as her symbol.

Crown Princess Victoria:
The Swedish Crown Princess who has recently visited Denmark, was made Knight of the Order of the Elephant on her eighteenth birthday, which is evident from the date on her crest. From the crest it is also evident that she is heir to the Swedish throne and they have thus avoided the in Latin non-existing crown princess title. The coat of arms of the Crown Princess is almost identical with the Swedish royal coat of arms. One exception however is the third field of the shield with gold and black lion. That symbolizes Väster-Götland of which the Crown Princess is Duchess. The shield of the Crown Princess is framed by two lions, so called bearers of arms. There is a tradition for that in Sweden, in Denmark however it’s two wild men/cavemen who are bearer of arms. Bearer of arms and shield is surrounded by a weapons-tent in blue colours, which is the colour of Sweden. Crown Princess Victoria’s shield is oval in contrast to Crown Princess Mary’s. That is because there in Sweden is a tradition for women’s shields being oval. Just as in Crown Princess Mary’s crest there is also above the shield of the Swedish Crown Princess a crown – the crown of the crown prince.

Written by Inger-Lise Klausen.

(*) The central administration of the court. Where the chief of court resides.

(**) From a technical point of view: By the 1100’s helmets with a broad nasal-guard and having the face framed with chain-mail was standard equipment. That completely distorted everyone’s facial features.
By the 1200’s the great helmets became standard. They were big barrel-shaped helmets with a horizontal slot for the eyes and a narrow vertical slot for breathing. They must have been a nightmare to fight in!
Great helmets were never particular popular in Scandinavia where cavalry charges were fairly uncommon. Partly due to the terrain, partly due to the costs of good war-mounts. Such charges were almost exclusively done by Danish armies. Skirmishing, raiding and fighting the battles on foot were much more common.
Helmets that in style looked very much like the British helmets of WWI & WWII were extremely popular in Scandinavia. In the rest of Europe these helmets were primarily used by professional soldiers.
That meant that the primary reason for introducing heraldry in Scandinavia back then had more to do with fashion than for practical reasons.

(***) The board dealing with who is going to receive orders and why.

(****) The Danish monarch was duke of Schlesvig and Holsten, not king.

(*****) The union of the three Nordic kingdoms was forged by Queen Margrethe I 700 years ago and was dissolved again within a few decades.

(******) The Oldenburgers preceded the Glücksburgers on the Danish throne.

The crest: The entire thing hanging on the wall.
The coat of arms: The symbols painted on the shield inside the crest.
The shield head: The top part of the shield, above the four fields.

[gerry]

mange tak as always Muhler for your erudite explanations. I am intrigued by the ship that I do not think has received mention, in the Donaldson (?) crest. Could this be the viking ship that the Professor mentioned in his memorable speech to his daughter on her wedding day? (there is no beery toast smiley on this board!)

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by gerry

mange tak as always Muhler for your erudite explanations. I am intrigued by the ship that I do not think has received mention, in the Donaldson (?) crest. Could this be the viking ship that the Professor mentioned in his memorable speech to his daughter on her wedding day? (there is no beery toast smiley on this board!)

Thank you.

I don't know the meaning of the ship.

It's not a viking ship though, but a caravel, from around 13-1500.

[gerry]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Thank you.

I don't know the meaning of the ship.

It's not a viking ship though, but a caravel, from around 13-1500.

Curious indeed! If I recall, there was a seafarer somewhere in the Donaldson patrimony, so perhaps the caravelle is a reference? But the caravelle was portuguese, no?

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by gerry

Curious indeed! If I recall, there was a seafarer somewhere in the Donaldson patrimony, so perhaps the caravelle is a reference? But the caravelle was portuguese, no?

I dunno.
The ships in heraldic I've seen follow generally a similar pattern in depiction. I.e. a caravelle-like vessel. - Whether it's really a krak or a koq (don't know the names in English) or whatever, I can't say. - Nor can the artists, I guess.

[Kataryn]

I found on a webpage about Clan Donald that the ship, they call it a galley, is one of the oldest heraldic symbols in a Scottish crest, going back to the 1000s. The Clan Donald reigned the Western Isles for centuries and the galley symbolizes the claim of the chieftain to be the "Lord of the Isles". This title over the centuries became part of the title of the heir to the Scottish throne along with the title of "prince of Scotland", today Prince Charles as the Duke of Rothesay holds the title. But the ship in Mary's and her father's crest shows that once her family were the rulers of "The Isles" in Scotland.

[Muhler]

Thanks for the explanation, Kataryn

An interesting piece of family history.

[Muhler]

Billed Bladet has a little more on the Christmas at Schackenborg 2010.

Summary of article in Billed Bladet #50, 2010.
Det bliver en dejlig fest - It'll be a lovely party.
Written by Ken Richter.

There will ten at the table at Schackenborg Christmas Eve:
Joachim.
Our Marie.
Bette Henrik.
Nikolai.
Felix.
QMII.
Prince Henrik.
Francoise Grassiot.
Christian Grassiot.
Peter Parkov. (Who always celebrate Christmas with the DRF).

In charge of all the dinners during Christmas at Schackenborg, will be 20 year old Rasmus Lodahl. A cook apprentise from Schackenborg Manor Inn. He is six months away from graduation.
He is not a bad cook as he is to take part in the Danish Championships for cooks apprenticies later on.
He's slightly nervous, but it's also a challenge where he is allowed to unfurl himself. "I'll admit I'm a little proud", he says.

Prince Henrik said about this Christmas: "The Family is the most important thing at Christmas and Christmas is both cosy (hyggelig) and full of traditions.
The Queen and I will naturally also go to Marselisborg Manor in Aarhus as is tradition. But we will stay for two Christmas days at our son and daughter-in-law at Schackenborg and we look very much forward to that.
For obvious reasons the CP-couple will not attend this year. They will stay at home at Amalienborg".

[Benedikte]

I'm sorry to say that Marie is not very bright.

From the beginning she has been called naiv.

Look at this picture from a meeting with unesco. I think the picture speaks for it self. Marie is only able to keep her patronage for skiing. A patronage like unesco is to much for her.

Keder du dig, Marie? - Royale - BT.dk

[Sternchen]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Billed Bladet has a little more on the Christmas at Schackenborg 2010.

Summary of article in Billed Bladet #50, 2010.
Det bliver en dejlig fest - It'll be a lovely party.
Written by Ken Richter.

There will ten at the table at Schackenborg Christmas Eve:
Joachim.
Our Marie.
Bette Henrik.
Nikolai.
Felix.
QMII.
Prince Henrik.
Francoise Grassiot.
Christian Grassiot.
Peter Parkov. (Who always celebrate Christmas with the DRF).

In charge of all the dinners during Christmas at Schackenborg, will be 20 year old Rasmus Lodahl. A cook apprentise from Schackenborg Manor Inn. He is six months away from graduation.
He is not a bad cook as he is to take part in the Danish Championships for cooks apprenticies later on.
He's slightly nervous, but it's also a challenge where he is allowed to unfurl himself. "I'll admit I'm a little proud", he says.

Prince Henrik said about this Christmas: "The Family is the most important thing at Christmas and Christmas is both cosy (hyggelig) and full of traditions.
The Queen and I will naturally also go to Marselisborg Manor in Aarhus as is tradition. But we will stay for two Christmas days at our son and daughter-in-law at Schackenborg and we look very much forward to that.
For obvious reasons the CP-couple will not attend this year. They will stay at home at Amalienborg".

Hm, wasn't it written somewhere that Marie is soooo excited to prepare a meal for so many people? Well, I guess she can relax now