Crown Princess Mary, Current Events 4: May - September 2005

[sommone]

I agree, we have to respect others opinions, but I disagree with everyone who is judging Mary based on pictures...There just isn't any way to know exactly if someone is cold or nice just by looking at a photo. However, assumptions can be made, and people do it all of the time. I personally believe that Mary is just as warm and receiving as she can be, but there does appear to be some reservations on her part. I, too, know what is like to be reserved.

[Jasl]

Originally Posted by Vicomtesse

If some others can say that they LIKE Mary based on their judgements of PHOTOS then why can others who do NOT LIKE Mary make the same judgement based on PHOTOS???
You can judge someone by photos if only you LIKE them? But it's not okay if you judge them but don't like them???

This is only my view on the matter (and it might seem very strange to some people) but I've always thought that you must have more proof and a stronger reason before you can say or do something negative as opposed to when you say or do something positive.

By way of example (and this is not a perfect analaogy I know, but it shows the different thresholds that need to be satisfied for different things), in criminal cases, one must show that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt (if there is reasonable doubt as to the guilt of the person, then person is not guilty) whereas in civil cases (non-payment of debts etc) it's only on the balance of probabilities (a person may be found guilty even if there is some doubt as to their guilt, as long as the evidence weighed together tend to indicate that theperson is guilty rather than innocent) . In the same way, I think you must have more proof to back up your argument before you can say "that person is manipulative" before a person can say "that person is warm and caring". Negative and positive views are (to me anyway) not the same thing (one is hurtful and one is supportive), and this necessitates the different treatment.

So applying the above to drawing conclusions about a person based on pictures, I would say that it's okay to draw positive impressions and say something positive about a person based on pictures, but not draw highly personal and negative views about a person based on how a person appears in photos/ clips.

[Thi]

interesting:)....Thanks for answering my question....Have a nice day :) :)

In my opinion.... i think that when negative words are directed toward someone, that there should be evidence to support as oppose to positive because with negative words, it usually attacks the receiving end (I hope that makes somewhat sense). I was always taught that if I have nothing nice to say I shouldnt say anything at all. But that is just me :). However I do believe in constructive criticism. hope i didnt upset anyone with this :(

[starnightsky]

Impressions are very difficult to make based on photographs alone. They are often difficult to make upon a direct meeting with someone, and I doubt you have ever seen Mary in person! Maybe Mary is the kind of woman who keeps her emotions more private, and there's nothing wrong with that. The media is certainly prying into every area of her life- I wouldn't blame her one bit if she wanted to keep the intimate relationship she has with her husband between just the two of them. If she really was an attention seeker, there would have been LOTS of leaks about their relationship to the media before there actually were. That obviously was not the case.

Myabe have another look at the photos in this forum for a second opinion.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...read.php?t=6951

I think there's quite a bit of affection between them.

Do you really think that Frederick, who could have married any woman in the world, would have chosen a woman who he was not 100% certain loved him very much as well?

I completely agree with you!!! I love the fact that Mary kisses Fred in public and often makes the first move to do so. It's very charming. I think that she truly is in love with Fred.

[Anita]

Originally Posted by Isabel

Usually, I can only make these types of inferences from impressions that are based on face to face meetings and actually being in that person's presence for some time. But, that's just me.

Yes, but you seem to like Mary . If I follow your reasoning, I have to ask you why you like Mary, when you have never met her ?

Originally Posted by azile1710

Do you really think that Frederick, who could have married any woman in the world, would have chosen a woman who he was not 100% certain loved him very much as well?

Eliza

Fred was and is surely very in love with Mary . So, when you're in love, you're often blind ...:)

Originally Posted by Vicomtesse

If some others can say that they LIKE Mary based on their judgements of PHOTOS then why can others who do NOT LIKE Mary make the same judgement based on PHOTOS???
You can judge someone by photos if only you LIKE them? But it's not okay if you judge them but don't like them???

I completely agree . That's a funny thing ...

Originally Posted by sommone

I personally believe that Mary is just as warm and receiving as she can be, but there does appear to be some reservations on her part. I, too, know what is like to be reserved.

I don't agree . It is not because you're reserved that you look necessarily not nice . Princess Letizia is the perfect example for that : she looks as reserved as Mary BUT, to me, she DOES look nice and has some kindness in her face's expressions . Whereas Mary does not have this kindness . But, again, it's only MY impressions .:)

[Jasl]

Originally Posted by Anita

Fred was and is surely very in love with Mary . So, when you're in love, you're often blind ...:)

It's not only love that's blind.... a little thing called ... ooo, better not say it... *whistles*:p

Man we're all going around in circles! :p Personally, I can't understand how some people can be bothered to waste their precious time cultivating these negative thoughts about someone that, for the most part, don't have any impact on their real life. Now if someone arouses positive feelings in you, then I can understand - you can use that positivity in your real life... but negative feelings? Why would I need any of that?

I also don't understand why people continue to treat negative and positive views as being the same thing... they are not the same! You may be justified in using something trivial to support positive comments since it does no harm, but you need more in order to justify your negative comments. Otherwise people will read your posts and go "hmmm, weird... wonder why she's so negative towards that person".

O well!!

Originally Posted by Anita

I don't agree . It is not because you're reserved that you look necessarily not nice . Princess Letizia is the perfect example for that : she looks as reserved as Mary BUT, to me, she DOES look nice and has some kindness in her face's expressions . Whereas Mary does not have this kindness . But, again, it's only MY impressions .:)

You know, sometimes I find that if I think about it enough, you can find out why you feel that way towards a person.

So what is it about her that you dislike?

For some reason, I think that some of the menace shown towards Mary is due to some people thinking that Mary is a threat to their own favourite... that and because they liked Fred before and now he's out of reach.

End rant.

[Anita]

I thought we were free to say what we want on this board . Apparently not, I see . Or is it only on the "Crown Princess Mary" thread ?? Anyway, for your information, I don't spend my life criticising Mary, for who, in fact, I have really no interest . And I didn't come to this thread to criticize her, I just happened to answer a question about whether our opininon of Mary has changed or not . So I've just said that mine has not changed, that's all . So, sorry if I offended someone, but I have the right to have AND say my opinion . Just as others do with, for example, Mette-Marit who I like very much, and there is a lot of criticism towards her !! But I accept it because we all have opinions and it's normal to say it and do discuss with other people, even if you don't agree with them . So, no hard feelings !:) :) :)

[ysbel]

I really believe that we should be free to say what we think here as long as its not defamatory or totally way out there and I don't think anyone is doing that here. None of us knows any of the royals (at least I don't THINK so :p ) so all we can do is speculate. And I don't think everything we say should be positive then it starts sounding like a fan club and that doesn't interest me. I've said a couple of negative things about Mary but it doesn't mean I don't like her.

When I searched for a rumour I heard about another royal I found that one member had deleted all his posts on the subject. That was very disappointing. I would have liked to be the judge of whether I agreed or disagreed whether it was good or bad.

What impresses me is that people here are very good about explaining why they come to this or that conclusion. It makes the tone of the discussion very civil and very entertaining and very educational. Other boards are not so lucky.

[Xandra]

In a way I agree with Anita. If I may venture to suggest why Anita gets the impression Mary is not in love with Fred.
Mary is definitely deeply in love with Fred-Crown Prince Frederick. But she would probably not have been so in love had he been only Fred the Plumber.
I can explain why I feel this way (but it´s only my personal feelings, too, so don´t get mad).
In interviews, Mary kept emphasising she didn´t know Fred was a CP; and all the blah blah about the person is more important, not that he´s a CP...
You know, like when drunkards say "I´m not drunk!" even when they can´t even stand on their feet anymore.
But it´s not only Mary;I´ll bet all the princesses married into royal families wouldn´t have been so interested, had those princes only been average Joes. I´ll be the first to admit I´ll also fall in love with a prince, given the chance!

[paloma]

Maxima is deeply in love with WA and if she had not married him, she would have married someone wealthy and successful because that is the crowd she socialized with. Him being a crown prince had nothing to do with her marrying him. Given the stressful situation she found herself in, due to her fathers past, if she had not loved WA she could/would have easily run away!

Letizia was successful and known in Spain long before Felipe came along.

Mathilde was expected to marry well as she came from a certain background.(aristocratic)

Mette-Marit is a surprise to all. I don't think that anyone can explain that marriage other than Haakon stepping away from tradition and fighting for what he wanted. However, Scandinavia is much more liberal than for instance Spain, where that would have never happened. I also don't think that Mette-Marit was all that thrilled about being a princess in the beginning. I personally think that she found it to be an impediment to her relationship.

As for Mary, I don't buy the fact that she did not know that Fred was a prince. I think that she had every intention of marrying well, as I don't think that WORK is a strong suit of hers. Her resume is rather thin for someone her age. Her social climbing is just way to obvious to me. Mette-Marit is not educated and does not have a strong work history, but she never took a deportment class and never acted or pretended to be something she was not. JMO. I think that Mary had no direction and Fred provided an out to real world responsibilities: rent, long term job etc. Yes, she has to work now by going to engagements and cutting ribbons etc. but with all of the princess perks, she does not mind!:)

[rchainho]

http://www.lavanguardia.es/web/20050...191318555.html

The sweet one waits for the VANGUARDIA - 23/08/2005

Princess Mary of Denmark, handcuffs of the heir to the throne, Federico, lives deluded his seventh month on pregnancy. The ex- Australian lawyer, who has not left her agenda of obligations, went yesterday to an act in Copenhagen and shone maternal smile while its bulky belly was caressed.

[ysbel]

I don't believe that she didn't know he was a prince either but I don't hold it against her for wanting to marry well. If she had been a prince-hunter, she would have hardly stayed in Australia. For her social climbing to be obvious to me, she would have had to have done some social climbing in Australia before she met the CP and I haven't heard of anything.

She may have lacked direction before she met Fred but it looks like he lacked some direction too. Not all women are cut out to be high powered career woman and I think someone like that would have scared Fred away anyway.

In that case, if someone lacks direction and marriage can give them a direction and sense of purpose I'm all for it. If he happens to be a crown prince and they can make the marriage work, so much the better.

In fact I'm better impressed that Mary has tried to take a deportment class and learned the ropes of the job. Although here the membership is very supportive of Mette-Marit and Haakon (and I definitely like Haakon) there are so many reports in Norway that the monarchy won't outlast Harald because of his children's choices of spouses. I'm glad Mary is taking the job seriously.

[Ava Elizabeth]

I think Mary loves Frederik very very much, she is very in love with him and I think the pics of the two of them together is proof enough.
When she met Frederik, she has said she didn't know he was a prince, and I choose to believe that she is speaking the truth.
Maybe she wanted to marry well, who knows, but that's not my impression of her.
I think you forget that taking the step to marry a crown prince is not easy:
sure, you'll be rich, travel the world, have fancy clothes, and live the good life, but it's hard work and you're under the spotlight constantly. It takes a lot of dedication, and
uou are really putting yourself out there! I can't imagine what it must feels like seeing yourself at every frontpage there is, and has everybody judging you up and down for everything.
But of course its everybodys right to have their openion, and this is mine.

[paloma]

I totally agree with you that a career woman like Maxima or Mabel would have scared Fred to death. Some women are not cut out to be career oriented, they find much more enjoyment and satisfaction in being wives and mothers. There is NOTHING wrong with that.:) However, one has to work hard until they find themselves in that situation. Unless of course, they marry and have children right out of high school or college.
I do think that Fred and Mary neither one had/have a lot of direction. They are more about vacations and luxury, but that is just my opinion. I do not count cutting ribbons and going to museums as hard work. Hard work is working 8-5, cooking dinner, helping with the kids homework and putting them to bed. If all I had to do was wear a pretty outfit, show up for an event, talk to people, cut ribbons etc. then I would gladly take that. JMO

I do think that Mary and Fred love each other, but Fred being a prince helped. I also think that Mary was uncomfortable in the beginning because I think that she knew people would question her work history(job hopping) As someone who works in HR, I can tell you that not staying with jobs for long(job hopping) is not looked upon to well. Her work history would not have come into play if she had not been following in the footsteps of Princess Alexandra who had a strong career in finance and who learned Danish in miraculous speed. Whether that is fair or not, is not the issue.

[Ava Elizabeth]

:



"I totally agree with you that a career woman like Maxima or Mabel would have scared Fred to death."
What are you basing this on? How do you know this?

"I do not count cutting ribbons and going to museums as hard work. Hard work is working 8-5, cooking dinner, helping with the kids homework and putting them to bed. If all I had to do was wear a pretty outfit, show up for an event, talk to people, cut ribbons etc."
I believe its many different wiews on what hard work is, and I don't think you can compare a normal 8-5 job with the job as a crown princess, as they are way different.
Also, people only see 50 % of what they are doing. There's a lot of work to be done, out of the spotlight as well.

[paloma]

Freddie has always had the reputation of not being very gifted in the academic field. He is also not known as a worker. I'm sure if he had his way, he would be nothing more than a soldier(SEAL), and that is perfectly fine. Evidently, he was a very good one. Everyone should be able to do something that they have a passion for and are good at.


Yes, there is work done behind the scenes, but if Mary was doing her work behind the scenes, she would not just follow a museum director around and say "Ja ,Ja, Ja" and not be able to really converse with the staff. Then she leaves and goes back to the palace.(it is on video) Yes, that is hard work that I would take any day.

Obviously we do not agree, but I'm not going to argue. You obviously love Mary and can't find fault at all. A mature individual can criticize those that they even admire as everyone has good and bad traits.(even me) For example, I like Letizia but do have a problem with the fact that since she only had a civil marriage she was still allowed to marry Felipe.(it's as if she had never married) To me, divorce is divorce. If she had been married in church, her marriage to Felipe would never have taken place. I find this to be completely hipocritical. However, I still respect and admire her for the career that she was able to achieve.

[Vicomtesse]

Originally Posted by Jasl

This is only my view on the matter (and it might seem very strange to some people) but I've always thought that you must have more proof and a stronger reason before you can say or do something negative as opposed to when you say or do something positive.

By way of example (and this is not a perfect analaogy I know, but it shows the different thresholds that need to be satisfied for different things), in criminal cases, one must show that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt (if there is reasonable doubt as to the guilt of the person, then person is not guilty) whereas in civil cases (non-payment of debts etc) it's only on the balance of probabilities (a person may be found guilty even if there is some doubt as to their guilt, as long as the evidence weighed together tend to indicate that theperson is guilty rather than innocent) . In the same way, I think you must have more proof to back up your argument before you can say "that person is manipulative" before a person can say "that person is warm and caring". Negative and positive views are (to me anyway) not the same thing (one is hurtful and one is supportive), and this necessitates the different treatment.

So applying the above to drawing conclusions about a person based on pictures, I would say that it's okay to draw positive impressions and say something positive about a person based on pictures, but not draw highly personal and negative views about a person based on how a person appears in photos/ clips.

Isn't this rather HYPOCRITICAL???
The burden of proof is on both sides. If you LIKE Mary or think that she's a warm and caring person then SHOW PICTURES AS EXAMPLES. Vice versa if you DON'T LIKE Mary then SHOW PICTURES AS EXAMPLES.
Why should those who have negative opinons or feelings towards an individual HAVE TO SHOW PROOF of their feelings but those who have positive feelings DO NOT???

Originally Posted by Jasl

Man we're all going around in circles! :p Personally, I can't understand how some people can be bothered to waste their precious time cultivating these negative thoughts about someone that, for the most part, don't have any impact on their real life.

But don't you keep PARTICIPATING in the same circular discussion???
So YOU like Mary that is okay. Nobody says that this isn't okay.
But there are also OTHERS who DO NOT LIKE MARY and that is okay too. They should be able to say how they feel too if there are others gushing about Mary. Why should only those gushing about Mary be allowed to have their say?
Whereas those who dare to express a single negative word about Mary are said to be running around in circles or being hurtful???

[paloma]

No kidding, mature individuals should be able to have a discussion where both sides are respected. Everything we say is an opinion and nothing more. Most of us will never meet royals and it is not as if they care what we really think anyway.
Have a good day everyone!:)

[ysbel]

I don't think we have to get upset either but all caps and bold are considered shouting on the Internet. Its too aggressive. :(

Originally Posted by paloma

Her work history would not have come into play if she had not been following in the footsteps of Princess Alexandra who had a strong career in finance and who learned Danish in miraculous speed. Whether that is fair or not, is not the issue.

paloma, you bring up a lot of good points but if I want to judge a person, fair is an issue, regardless of what everybody else thinks. Its interesting that you bring up Alexandra - yes, she had an amazing career before her marriage but the marriage didn't last. One could almost say that as a driven career woman she was bored with the limited choices a princess has. I can sympathize with that but marriages that don't work hardly help the monarchy.

I basically want Fred and Mary to succeed in their marriage because I believe in the monarchy and he seems like a nice guy. Overall I think he made a good choice given his own temperament and responsibilities. I was a little hesitant about his bringing a commoner wife from overseas because I thought that was too much for a woman to handle at one time. New language, new country, new husband, new in-laws, being royal, being famous.

I wonder about the influence the cultural differences had on the marriage of Alexandra and Joachim. The Danes speak English so well and they seem so pleasant that you could almost mistake them for Americans or Brits but I think there is a lot that goes on under the surface there that a foreigner may not pick up on readily.

But on the whole I think the crown prince couple are doing pretty well. Fred at least looks more relaxed, like he is more sure of himself and that's a good thing.

[paloma]

You are correct, he definitely seems to have found someone who fits his temperament. I do hope that this marriage works as one failed marriage in the Danish royal family is enough.