Countess Alexandra and Martin Jørgensen, Current Events Part 3: Dec 2009-Sept 2015

[Archduchess Zelia]

The boys look so dapper – the same can't quite be said for Joachim and Marie. Were they rocking a safari theme, or?

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by polyesco

Some pictures from Alexanadra's 50th birthday.
Joachim and Marie attended as well. and Nikolai and Felix too
Prince Joachim parties with his ex-wife | Royalista

Thanks, Polyesco.

I don't think Marie needs further comments, she is... our Marie. Voila: http://royalista.com/wp-content/cach...ox500@1.5x.jpg

As for Joachim, I'm in awe: http://royalista.com/wp-content/cach...ox500@1.5x.jpg
Obviously the dress code must have been: outlandish.
However a gentleman cannot dress inappropriately, it is simply not possible! And as we all know, Joachim is a perfect gentleman, ergo his whole attire is classic example of elegant tastelessness.

[MidwestMom]

Is Joachim wearing a camoflage print tuxedo jacket? Oh my goodness. He has obviously inherited his father's flair for fashion. Makes Frederik's red pants look tame by comparison!

[Fox]

I don't think Martin was indiscreet talking about the loans.

There had been some article about the house in Turkey and the economy.

Martin responded to these articles and told about the loan in the house in Denmark. And as everyone can see loans on property, Martin didn't reveal anything.

Everyone can par example see which loans I have taken in my property. All danes have these loans when they buy real estate, except people winning the lottery etc.

Prins Joachim fester med sin ekskone | Royalista

A wonderfull looking dress even though the most low cut i have seen

[Blog Real]

Pictures of Countess Alexandra celebrating her 50 birthday

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https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/...16888628_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...99494296_n.jpg

https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/...fc&oe=543A20C7

[Terri Terri]

What are the opinions of the Danes on this board to this article about public opinion changing on Countess Alexandra continuing to receive money from the state?
Danskerne i chokmåling: Grevinde Alexandra må forsørge sig selv - Royale | www.bt.dk

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by Terri Terri

What are the opinions of the Danes on this board to this article about public opinion changing on Countess Alexandra continuing to receive money from the state?
Danskerne i chokmåling: Grevinde Alexandra må forsørge sig selv - Royale | www.bt.dk

It's only to be expected as Alexandra slowly fades away from the public eye and her children grows older.

Personally I agree wholeheartedly with the politician Søren Espersen, who has said a firm no to reconsidering Alexandra's apange, on the basis that the DRF is not a normal family and that her children should grow up in a lifestyle that befits their status. In other words we shouldn't be measely.
Considering the party Søren Espersen represents and himself being a member of the Presidium of the Parliament, that will be the policy of the next government as well.
BTW it was Søren Espersen who a couple of years back in no uncertain terms told PH to forget all about his dreams of ever becoming king. It was remarkable in the sense that it was the first time an influential politician dressed down a member of the DRF in public and basically told PH to "shut up".
Søren Espersen: Derfor skal Alexandra beholde pengene - Danmark | www.bt.dk

[Terri Terri]

Thanks Muhler for your response. This story made the bbc news!!!
BBC News - Denmark: Should former princess pay her own way?

But the question I have though...will this become a problem in the future?...despite the opinion of Søren Espersen? Countess Alexandra's appanage is for life...so she will continue to get money from the Danish state for far longer than she was a member of the royal family. It would have been different if she was a widow...but she made the decision to leave the royal family. Nikolai and Felix are now 7th and 8th in line to the throne and will not play much of an official role in the future DRF...if any.

it will be interesting to see what happens on this issue in the future.

[Muhler]

Oh yes, it will be a problem in the future.

This question will pop up again and even though I personally think it's peanuts comparing to so many other things there is some justification to the issue: Why keep paying for allowance for a divorcee, who has remarried and moved on? Not least since the future of Nikolai and Felix should be financially secure after Joachim selling Schackenborg and since Countess Alexandra herself seems pretty well off herself.

The gracious thing and PR-wise wisest thing would be for Alexandra to request not to continue recieving her apanage once Felix has turned eighteen.

[Terri Terri]

I wonder if part of the reason that Alexandra received an appanage was because Prince Joachim could not afford to give her as much cash money in the divorce settlement at the time? I remember he had to sell a property near Shackenborg to help fund the payment of her villa.

[tommy100]

I think the State paying for a Prince's ex wife for the rest of her life is a bit too much IMO but then didn't one of the Queen's cousins receive an allowance for life as well so maybe I'm just not use to it. I don't see why Alexandra couldn't go and work, didn't she have a good job before and as i understand it she now sits on a few boards for extra income. I think it would be different if she was still out doing lots and lots of public duties but she doesn't. I think IMO at the time of the divorce she was still pretty much the main Royal Princess and the mother of two boys quite close to the throne (i think I'm right in saying MAry had just married into the family) so people and politicians felt sorry for her. Now though Mary is massively popular, there are 4 children of the Crown Prince/Princess and Joachim has remarried and has children with his new wife so Alexandra's role has lessened and lessened.
Maybe in future Danish politicians or the Royal court whoever decides these things needs to think carefully about how the decisions will look in the future.

Personally if I was Alexandra i'd offer to drop the allowance in return for some other perks such as not paying VAT or other taxes as the RF don't.

[Fox]

Elisabeth get the apanage maybe because her Brother should have been king if it werent for the change of law in benefit of queen margrethe.

Joachim got the apanage because everyone got so excited about alexandra.

Alexandra got the apanage because the former princess should not be connected to various firms. As such she must choose wisely amongst which directors boards she can be connected to. She has to show consideration towards the royal Family in that aspect.

[Muhler]

I believe, and several politicians has said so openly that Alexandra got her apanage to maintain the living standard befitting of two royal children, who at the time were three and four in line for the throne. - After Frederik and Joachim.
There was after all a possibillity that M&F would not have children.

Another reason was to avoid a "Diana" at all costs. No bitter ex-wife speaking to the press all the time, so in a sense it was "behave-well-money".
But first and foremost I believe Alexandra got such a good bargain, because it was novel situation. There hadn't been a divorce in the DRF for some 150 years. And beforehand these sorts of situations were dealt with routinely by allocating the lady in question an estate somewhere in the countryside where she would retire and live descreetly and comfortably from the revenue. (I refer here mainly to women married to the "left hand", i.e. official mistresses).
And there were no official papers willing to print anything negative she might have to say back then.

The DRF learned after all from the affair, in the sense that Mary had to sign a considerable less advantageous prenup. And presumably so have our Marie.
(I can imagine a fuming newlywed Frederik grinding his teeth, but no doubt the prenup was very much "strongly advised" by the government).

Everything considered I believe it's money well spend. For some 25 million DKK, so far, the divorce has been most civillized, with very little bad PR for the DRF and as a consequence Denmark.
Joachim had to sell one of his golden eggs, Schackenborg Inn and probably realise some shares and what not in order to give Alexandra a reasonable sum, so the apanage was I imagine an additional incentive for her to accept less of what would otherwise have been 50 % of the estate. Which would propbably have meant that Joachim would have been forced to sell Schackenborg back in 2005 with a considerable less surplus if any.

There is no way Alexandra will be excempted from tax and vat now, that would be politically unacceptable for several reasons. The main reason being that only royals are excempted.

For a woman who is very aware of her public image it would be an obvious choice for her to request no longer getting an apanage once her children have left home. (i.e. no older than age twenty - or they ought to be kicked out ).
By then she can sell her current large home with a good profit and settle anywhere she should wish. She can also sit on any board she would wish, as she is no longer directly in charge of two members of the DRF, Nikolai and Felix.
She would still retain her high status, as holder of the Order of the Elephant and mother of two Princes.
And you would imagine she would have had time and the means to make enough sound investments for her to live comfortable for the rest of her life.

If she should not offer to give up the apanage in eight-ten years from now, the issue will flare up again, in earnest, and it will be difficult to justify her recieving such an amount. Politically it may be decided to cut the apanage by half or two-thirds and there would be very little opposition to do so. - Any "threat of going public" from Alexandra would by then be of little consequence and actually self-destructive. She would be seen as a "bitter old hag" should she do so. - And to be honest, I don't think she would do anything like that. The DRF and the state have in any way been very fair towards her.

[tommy100]

Originally Posted by Muhler

There is no way Alexandra will be excempted from tax and vat now, that would be politically unacceptable for several reasons. The main reason being that only royals are excempted.

I was only suggesting she could be except from tax if she gave up the allowance, thus the state/taxpayers wouldn't be paying her anymore but she would have more money than now.

I agree, once the boys are older it will be highly difficult to justify the allowance, part of the problem seems to be that there is no real official reason given for the allowance, it it part of her divorce, to keep her sons in a Princely style, to keep her quiet, to keep her on good behavior, to stop her working for undesirable companies? If a reason was given it would make it more understandable to taxpayers maybe. It looks to me as if quite frankly everyone panicked at the first royal divorce so the government agreed hastily to a lifetime allowance but will in future come to regret it.

In a way I can see that the DRF (maybe not the State itself but the DRF) have benefited as they have avoided a Sarah Ferguson situation, selling stories, products etc all linked to the BRF. But should the danish taxpayers be paying to keep an ex Princess quiet?

[Muhler]

Oh yes, I think you nailed it.
However, it would be bad form to say in public the real reason for Alexandra getting such a good deal, even though it IMO requires very little thinking to reach that conclusion...

I understood what you meant in regards to taxes and vat, but it would be much more politically unacceptable and also much less palatable for the public to grant her exemption from taxation (she's after all a commoner now) than to continue giving her her current apanage.
The general view being, she got a good deal to begin with and she has had time and means enough to secure herself for the rest of her life.
The very best she can expect now is to keep her current apanage. Should she complain if her apange is cut she would be committing PR-hara kiri.
So Alexandra will be wise in keeping her mouth shut in any way.

The politicians don't seem particularly interested in the issue and there is one more thing to consider:
Joachim got such a good deal from sale of Schackenborg that his two oldest children may not even need an apanage when they turn eighteen. At worst it might be an Benedikte as far as the state is concerned. I.e an expense account/limited apanage, because that's basically what it is.

[Fox]

At the time of the divorce I dont think anyone questioned Alexandras ability to maintain a economic standard. After all alexandra has a good education in economics and left a job in hong kong at the time that paid 1 mill kr a year.

[crm2317]

Does Joachim not pay child support?

I personally feel Alexandra's apanage should have stopped when she remarried with payments from Joachim towards the upbringing of the two princes.


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[tommy100]

Just thought that now Joachim has sold Schackenborg Castle he could present a way out of this. Give half of the money from the sale to Alexandra as a lump sum for child support and stop the payments to her from the state.
Unlikely I know but it would mean Alexandra gets a fair payment for divorce and is not left financially unsupported with the state having to pick up her support.

[Muhler]

That would be an option, but an unwise option I think for Alexandra's image
She would be seen as greedy and her skinning Joachim,as it is not the DRF but the Parliament that decides the apanage.

That would amount to at least 35 million DKK or fourteen years worth of apanage and it would also mean that Nikolai and Felix would get twice as much in inheritance from the proceeds of the sale of Schackenborg than bette Henrik and Athena, rather than an equal share as it is now.

[camelot23ca]

In retrospect, I think the best thing would have been for Joachim and Alexandra to settle their finances between the two of them at the time of the divorce, without the government getting involved at all, (or maybe with the government giving Alexandra a lump sum "buyout" so to speak, as recognition of the very good work she did as a Danish princess). It's not, or shouldn't be, the concern of the government whether junior branches of the royal family are able to provide a standard of living for their children befitting their station. Nikolai, Felix, Henrik and Athena are entitled to whatever lifestyle their parents are able to provide for them, IMO, no more, no less, just like every other child whose parent isn't the monarch or the future monarch, ( and I realize at the time Felix and Nikolai were much higher up in the line of succession, but Frederik had already married Mary at the time of J and A's divorce and, realistically, everyone would have known the chances of one of the boys becoming king one day was slim to nil).

That being said, I remember when the divorce was announced and the great emphasis on how civil everyone planned to be. Also, the timing of the divorce was fortuitous in that Alexandra had been the one and only young Danish princess for all of her marriage and hadn't had time to be demoted, so to speak, by the arrival of the new Crown Princess, (to contrast, I doubt anyone would seriously suggest Marie get any sort of financial support from the government if she and Joachim divorced today).

I agree that the most fitting thing would be for Alexandra to voluntarily give up the apanage once Felix turns 18. I wouldn't agree with the government taking it away from her - they made a commitment at the time of the divorce, right or wrong, and should honour it. I also think that, if Alexandra gave up the apanage earlier, she should be able to take any job she wants and is qualified for, including in business, finance, whatever.