Brazilian Marriage Rules & Musings

[Iluvbertie]

Assuming any princess would have him - it seems as if some people just assume that the limited pool of princesses (and I assume a 'princess' like Beatrice wouldn't be included as she is from an unequal marriage and so wouldn't qualify) actually falls in love with him or a prince as well.

I am aware that Beatrice would be out on religious grounds but if there is such a thing as 'equal' marriage than if there is any non-royal ancestor then that person is out as well.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

In fact there's no such a thing like sixteen royal ancestors required. The bride just has to be a Princess from a Imperial/Royal/Princely House.

For example, the Brazilian Monarchists regard Princess Alexandra of Luxembourg as the suitable wife for Prince Rafael, regardless of Grand Duchess Maria Teresa been a commoner by birth.

Princess Beatrice of York would be rejected in the grounds that she isn't a Catholic, not because her mother isn't a Royal by birth.

 

[Iluvbertie]

So actually they don't require an 'equal' marriage as the girl can be the product of an unequal marriage - hardly fair is it?

Surely if they are so hung up on equal marriage then they should be insisting that the princess is herself from an equal marriage -- and the one you mention isn't so that should rule her out.

If it is good enough for the parents of the bride to have an unequal marriage then why should he be so limited in choice that he can overlook her less than equal birth?

 

[Ish]

Bertie, you're trying to make sense in something that doesn't make sense. Why is the heir to a throne that no longer exists required to make an "equal" marriage in any definition of the word? Are there any European monarchies still reigning that require such a thing?
.

 

[Mariel]

Brazilian, I appeal to you on behalf of Mako and Kako. These girls face a bleak future if a prince does not rescue them. Like their aunt, the sister of the present crown prince, they have to give up their titles unless they marry another person of royal blood. And they have to leave the imperial household, although it is reported that the empress and emperor visit their daughter and her commoner husband. There is discussion of changing the law so that princesses in Japan will be able to remain part of the imperial household--their family--if they marry this way, but so far that is but a dream.
I can see Mako or Kako converting to Christianity, and Catholicism is part of the Christian faith. Their grandma Empress Michiko was educated in a Catholic convent for rich social girls, which in the USA we call the Ladies of the Sacred Heart (I have known several of these very well educated sisters, in classes at Stanford and elsewhere). Michiko remained Buddhist, probably out of tradition, although the emperor is Shinto (forgive me, I don't know how these things co-exist if they do). But these grandaughters of the Emperor are really in NEED of a princely rescue and would be grateful to be rescued, if they loved the Brazilian. They are well educated and could learn Portuguese, as well as the Catholic catechism. I know it's a way out suggestion, but it is not acceptable to me to contemplate a marriage between an Orleans-Braganza heir and a cousin, unless possibly she happens to be a very distant cousin. I know the results of inbreeding in royal families and you should educate yourself on this too. It's a voluminous subject. Someone said Alexandra had five lines of descent same as the Brazilian prince.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Bertie, you're trying to make sense in something that doesn't make sense. Why is the heir to a throne that no longer exists required to make an "equal" marriage in any definition of the word? Are there any European monarchies still reigning that require such a thing?

No - probably one of the reasons why they are still reigning - they have been prepared to let non-royals in and see no issue with that meaning that they have avoided a lot of the inbreeding that results from a narrow marriage base.

The British royal families have had commoners marrying kings for centuries e.g. Edward IV, Henry VIII, James II, George VI, Charles and William. Most have done so since WWII as well - simply because they believe in marriage for love is more important than marrying someone due to who their mother/father is.

 

[HRHHermione]

No - probably one of the reasons why they are still reigning - they have been prepared to let non-royals in and see no issue with that meaning that they have avoided a lot of the inbreeding that results from a narrow marriage base.

The British royal families have had commoners marrying kings for centuries e.g. Edward IV, Henry VIII, James II, George VI, Charles and William. Most have done so since WWII as well - simply because they believe in marriage for love is more important than marrying someone due to who their mother/father is.

Exactly. The whole concept of "marrying equally" is rubbish, and I'm inclined to think the families who buy into it are hopeless snobs. Who are these young people being raised to believe in something so hopelessly archaic?

 

[Iluvbertie]

I remember that there was some criticism of Queen Victoria in allowing her daughter to marry a Battenburg Prince because even though he was a prince in the eyes of those who believed in 'equal marriages' at the time having the title of 'prince' didn't make the marriage equal as his parents weren't both of the same standing. The European royals of the day took 'equal marriages' very seriously and once a royal had contracted an unequal marriage their descendents were forever classed as not up to the full royal standard.

It seems that the definition of an 'equal marriage' for the former Brazilian royal family is more associated with marrying a title rather than actually an equal marriage at all.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

So actually they don't require an 'equal' marriage as the girl can be the product of an unequal marriage - hardly fair is it?

Surely if they are so hung up on equal marriage then they should be insisting that the princess is herself from an equal marriage -- and the one you mention isn't so that should rule her out.

If it is good enough for the parents of the bride to have an unequal marriage then why should he be so limited in choice that he can overlook her less than equal birth?

She has to be a Princess, raised with the same values of Prince Rafael, and prepared to serve her country (her new country, Brazil).

The Head of the Imperial House explain this very well at this video:

Dom Luiz de Orleans e Bragança Chefe da Casa Imperial - YouTube

I translated the part where he talks about equal marriages for you:

"I'm single. Every Prince is educated to act not so much due his interests, but due to the Nation's interests. If he marries someone who wasn't educated in the same way, that can bring complications, mistakes and lots of problems. And for the good of the country, we have to marry with members of other Royal Houses".

In my opinion, Prince Luiz admitted he wasn't able to find a Princess to marry.

On other hand, Prince Bertand has said that he never married because he decided to devote his life only to the Monarchist Cause in Brazil.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Bertie, you're trying to make sense in something that doesn't make sense. Why is the heir to a throne that no longer exists required to make an "equal" marriage in any definition of the word?

Excuse me, but that make sense for the majority of the Brazilian Monarchists, and even people who aren't Monarchist admire the ability the Imperial Family had in keeping with their tradition. And I think those traditions only have to make sense for us, Brazilians.

The Imperial Family lose their Throne in a Military Coup, they were forced to live the country, only been able to return after 50 years in exile.

Without their traditions, they aren't different from their non-Dynastic cousins, who, at times, try to claim the Throne for them.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Brazilian, I appeal to you on behalf of Mako and Kako. These girls face a bleak future if a prince does not rescue them. Like their aunt, the sister of the present crown prince, they have to give up their titles unless they marry another person of royal blood.And they have to leave the imperial household, although it is reported that the empress and emperor visit their daughter and her commoner husband. There is discussion of changing the law so that princesses in Japan will be able to remain part of the imperial household--their family--if they marry this way, but so far that is but a dream.
I can see Mako or Kako converting to Christianity, and Catholicism is part of the Christian faith. Their grandma Empress Michiko was educated in a Catholic convent for rich social girls, which in the USA we call the Ladies of the Sacred Heart (I have known several of these very well educated sisters, in classes at Stanford and elsewhere). Michiko remained Buddhist, probably out of tradition, although the emperor is Shinto (forgive me, I don't know how these things co-exist if they do). But these grandaughters of the Emperor are really in NEED of a princely rescue and would be grateful to be rescued, if they loved the Brazilian.
And they have to leave the imperial household, although it is reported that the empress and emperor visit their daughter and her commoner husband. There is discussion of changing the law so that princesses in Japan will be able to remain part of the imperial household--their family--if they marry this way, but so far that is but a dream.
I can see Mako or Kako converting to Christianity, and Catholicism is part of the Christian faith. Their grandma Empress Michiko was educated in a Catholic convent for rich social girls, which in the USA we call the Ladies of the Sacred Heart (I have known several of these very well educated sisters, in classes at Stanford and elsewhere). Michiko remained Buddhist, probably out of tradition, although the emperor is Shinto (forgive me, I don't know how these things co-exist if they do). But these grandaughters of the Emperor are really in NEED of a princely rescue and would be grateful to be rescued, if they loved the Brazilian. They are well educated and could learn Portuguese, as well as the Catholic catechism. I know it's a way out suggestion, but it is not acceptable to me to contemplate a marriage between an Orleans-Braganza heir and a cousin, unless possibly she happens to be a very distant cousin.

Mariel, I'm aware of their situation. But I still hope the Japanese Government will make changes to allow the Princesses to create their own Imperial Branches.

But I don't think Prince Rafael will go to Japan to find a wife. His future wife is, for sure, a member of some European Catholic Royal House.

I know the results of inbreeding in royal families and you should educate yourself on this too. It's a voluminous subject. Someone said Alexandra had five lines of descent same as the Brazilian prince.

I think you are overplaying the situation with inbreeding. Queen Victoria and Prince Albert were first cousins, and none of their children born with two heads and five legs. Also, Prince Rafael descendes of an unbroken line of, at least, eight cousin/cousin or uncle/niece marriages, at the Imperial side of his family, and His Royal Highness is a perfectly healthy man.

Of course, during the 1700's and 1800's inbreeding was out of control, with to much close relatives marrying each other (the Bourbons are a fine example). But, nowadays, Royal/Royal marriages aren't that bad. The Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh are something like third cousins, and they had a healthy offspring.

If Prince Rafael marries Princess Alexandra, I'll not worry about their kids health because of inbreeding.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

I'm inclined to think the families who buy into it are hopeless snobs.

Lets see:

Prince Luiz, the Head of the Imperial House, is a 75 years old man who had polio as a child, and still have locomotor problems because of that. He always presiding over Monarchist Meetings, his house, in São Paulo, is always open for Monarchists from all over the country, he gives interviews all the time. His address is availabe on internet, anyone can come to visit him.

Prince Bertrand, the Prince Imperial, is a 72 years old man, who travels the entire country, presiding over lectures about Monarchy. He also engaged with many causes that politicians are afraid to get envolved.

Prince Antônio, the third in the line of succession and Prince Rafael's father, also travels around Brazil, visiting schools, orphanages, hospital and even prisons (politicians here never go to those places). He's now retired, but he used to have two jobs.

Princess Cristina, Prince Antônio's wife, is envolved with charities to help mentally disabled children. She always take part in charity events.

Prince Rafael, the fourth in line to the throne, is now working as engineer for a great company here in Brazil. He also travels with his father and attend meetings, on behalf of the Monarchist Movement.

Princess Amélia, Prince Rafael's older sister, who is fifth in line to the throne, is now living and working in Spain, she's an architect. But, when she's in Brazil, she take part in the Monarchist Movement. And she also helps her mother with charities.

Princess Maria Gabriela, Prince Antônio's youngest child and sixth in line to throne, has recently graduated from college. She also works on behalf of the Imperial Household, representing the Imperial Family at some official events. Like his sister, she helps her mother with charities.

Princess Isabel, who is a sister of the Head of the Imperial Family, was President of the Brazilian Read Cross, and she's involved with a lot of charities. Her Royal Highness is the seventh in line to throne.

Princess Eleonora, the Princess of Ligne, is also a sister of the Head of the Imperial Family. She, alongside her husband, the Prince of Ligne, are involved with lots of charities in Belgium, where they live. They give special attention to disabled people.

Well, the Imperial Family of Brazil isn't a bunch of hopeless snobs.

Who are these young people being raised to believe in something so hopelessly archaic?

They were raised to keep their families values, just that.

 

[NGalitzine]

And for the good of the country, we have to marry with members of other Royal Houses".

QUOTE]

OK, it seems a bit over the top to claim that dynastic marriages are for the good of the country. I can see how a dynastic marriage might help the former Imperial Family in maintaining their royal pretensions and maybe even their finances, but what earthly benefit has it been to Brazil? The country has been a republic for over 100 years so how have they benefited or even really cared about who members of a former Imperial Family married?

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

I can see how a dynastic marriage might help the former Imperial Family in maintaining their royal pretensions and maybe even their finances

Finances? The bride isn't required to have a dowry.

Prince Pedro Henrique married a Bavarian Princess, her family owned (and still owning) large properties in Germany. When they came to Brazil, in 1945, they doesn't even had a house to live. A rich Monarchist gave them a house. In 1951, Prince Pedro Henrique sold the house and bought a small farm in the southern state of Paraná. Where all their 12 children helped with the plantation. Princess Maria Elizabeth (Prince Pedro Henrique's wife) sold her artistic work (she was a fabulous painter) in order to have money to educate the poor children of the neighborhood.

Princes Luiz and Bertrand live with the financial help of around 120 Monarchists. They live in a rented house in São Paulo (the house is showed in the video I posted on post on #159).

Prince Antônio married Princess Cristina of Ligne, and the Lignes are quite rich. But the Prince worked his entire life (he had two jobs) to support his wife and four children.

And all of Prince Antônio's children are working. They are like all Brazilian, we don't have any problem in working for earn honest money.

There's no finacial benefits for the Imperial Family because of the dynastic marriages.

The country has been a republic for over 100 years so how have they benefited or even really cared about who members of a former Imperial Family married?

Well, 21% of the Brazilians supports the Monarchy. We care about what happens to the Imperial Family. And I suppose we are part of the country.

 

[Warren]

..and even people who aren't Monarchist admire the ability the Imperial Family had in keeping with their tradition.

By a thread.
Let's have a dose of realism in this discussion rather than continuing with a fanciful and romanticised view of the situation. The simple and perhaps unpalatable fact is that of the eight sons of the late Prince Henrique, seven failed to "keep with their tradition" and just one, Prince Antonio, married a Princess. Kudos to him, but one out of eight (or two out of twelve if we include the daughters) is cutting it fine by any measure.

Truth is that the current "tradition" of the members (now ex-members?) of the extended Imperial Family of Brazil, descendants of Prince Henrique, is to marry unequally, a "tradition" being carried forward by the twenty or so sons and daughters of those non-conforming seven sons (with the notable exception of Isabel, now a Countess zu Stolberg-Stolberg).

I wish Prince Rafael (and his sisters) the best of luck in finding suitable and loving royal partners, but I'm finding the constant focus on Princess Alexandra of Luxembourg to be carrying with it a sense of desperation.

 

[NGalitzine]

But you didnt answer the basic claim.......that they marry dynastically for the good of the country. What "good" has Brazil received because of the dynastic marriages made by the former Imperial Famly?

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

But you didnt answer the basic claim.......that they marry dynastically for the good of the country. What "good" has Brazil received because of the dynastic marriages made by the former Imperial Famly?

They are keeping with the tradition, because they believe this is good for the country. Well, we, the Monarchist, think that that's good.

Perhaps you should write to Head of the Imperial House, asking for a more accurate answer. I already gave you his address. He speaks english.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

(now ex-members?)

Yes, ex-members. They are no longer members of the Imperial Family.

I wish Prince Rafael (and his sisters) the best of luck in finding suitable and loving royal partners

Thank you, on behalf of the Prince and Princesses, and also on behalf of the Brazilian Monarchists.

but I'm finding the constant focus on Princess Alexandra of Luxembourg to be carrying with it a sense of desperation.

She's regarded as the most suitable wife for him.

 

[NGalitzine]

They are keeping with the tradition, because they believe this is good for the country. Well, we, the Monarchist, think that that's good.

Perhaps you should write to Head of the Imperial House, asking for a more accurate answer. I already gave you his address. He speaks english.

Now thats a cop out if I ever heard one.
I would have expected a passionate monarchist like yourself to have ready a long list of benefits Brazil and the Brazilian people have received as a result of the dynastic marriages made by some members of the former Imperial Family. Since they do it for "the good of the country" surely the benefits must be well known.

 

[Ish]

Not only is it a cop out, but it's blatantly obvious that it's a biased opinion, based on the thoughts of one monarchist - I am sure there are Brazilian monarchists who donn't care if the members of the Imperial family marry equally and see the requirement to do so as a hindrance to the family's very existence.

I could argue that I think it's important for the good of the country that Prince Charles and his descendants be passed over in the line of succession in favour of Prince Edward and his children, as Edward is the only one of the Queen's sons to make his marriage work and I don't believe that having a divorced monarch (or the offspring of such a man) is good for the country. Does that opinion mean that it represents what is actually good for the country or what monarchists believe - no, it would just be my opinion on the matter. (Note, it's not actually my opinion) Your argument is based on your opinion and hasn't been backed up by any actual facts beyond that one member of the Brazilian Imperial Family has said that he'll marry equally.

 

[HRHHermione]

There is no throne. There hasn't been a throne in a hundred years. It's highly unlikely there will ever be a throne again.

 

[Iluvbertie]

They are keeping with the tradition, because they believe this is good for the country. Well, we, the Monarchist, think that that's good.

Perhaps you should write to Head of the Imperial House, asking for a more accurate answer. I already gave you his address. He speaks english.

How is it good for the country?

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Now thats a cop out if I ever heard one.
I would have expected a passionate monarchist like yourself to have ready a long list of benefits Brazil and the Brazilian people have received as a result of the dynastic marriages made by some members of the former Imperial Family. Since they do it for "the good of the country" surely the benefits must be well known.

I had show some good reasons for that in my posts at this thread.

They are keeping with their tradition, that's not a crime. The Imperial Family care about Brazil and it's people. Prince Rafael himself said he's prepared to serve his country and people.

The Princes and Princesses of the Imperial Family are been prepered since childhood to assume the duty of Head of State, even, as some of you pointed to me (as if I had never heard about my country history) that Brazil isn't a Monarchy any more.

The aren't reigning, they don't have a State to provide their children education. The only way a member of the Imperial Family can learn how to act like a Prince and future Head of the State is at home. That's why the equal marriage is required. Father and mother can teach their children how to behave as a Prince or Princess, because father and mother were educated in that way.

They aren't criminal who have to be judged, they are just a Family who is trying to keep existing with many things against them.

 

[NGalitzine]

I am not questioning their tradition, I am questioning the claim that they make these dynastic marriages for good for the country and asking what benefits have Brazil and the Brazilians derived from such marraiges. You are dancing all around the question but not answering it.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Not only is it a cop out, but it's blatantly obvious that it's a biased opinion, based on the thoughts of one monarchist

You is the one with biased opinion on a Family tradition.

I am sure there are Brazilian monarchists who donn't care if the members of the Imperial family marry equally and see the requirement to do so as a hindrance to the family's very existence.

Of course some Monarchist don't care about dynastic marriages. But the majority of us respect the opinions of the Imperial Family. And we recognize the Head of the Imperial House's authority.

Your argument is based on your opinion and hasn't been backed up by any actual facts beyond that one member of the Brazilian Imperial Family has said that he'll marry equally.

Actually, the Head of the Imperial House only accepts dynastic marriages, his heir presumptive, the Prince Imperial, has said that he will only accept those marriages too.

Prince Antônio and Princess Eleonora married equally, unlike their borthers and sisters.

Prince Antônio's children have expressed that they'll marry equally.

So, 7 out of the 9 members of the Imperial Family have expressed their views that dynastic marriage is a good thing and they'll stick with the tradition.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

I am not questioning their tradition, I am questioning the claim that they make these dynastic marriages for good for the country and asking what benefits have Brazil and the Brazilians derived from such marraiges. You are dancing all around the question but not answering it.

That's the answer. That's exactly what Prince Luiz or any other member of the Imperial Family would say to you.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Sad that in the early 21st century a family is still living in the 19th - and they don't even have a real reason for doing so other than pretending that they are part of their nation's life.


You have been asked over and over again what 'good they are doing for the country' by insisting on this antiquated and out of date system continues - a system that isn't necessary in those countries where the royal family actually does operate as a real royal family.

This is simply a belief that only someone with the title of princess can be a princess but amazingly the two ladies that I think embody the title princess best in the 20th century weren't born with that title - Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon and Diana Spencer.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

There is no throne. There hasn't been a throne in a hundred years. It's highly unlikely there will ever be a throne again.

So? The Imperial Family has to throw away their traditions because of a coup? I believe the same would go for the Imperial Families of Russia and Germany.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Sad that in the early 21st century a family is still living in the 19th - and they don't even have a real reason for doing so other than pretending that they are part of their nation's life.

They are part of the lives of 21% of the Brazilians. Are you saying the Monarchists are insignificant people who don't deserve to see a Family they respect and follow keeping with their traditions?

 

[NGalitzine]

That's the answer. That's exactly what Prince Luiz or any other member of the Imperial Family would say to you.

You're dancing as fast as you can but still not answering the basic question.

If these dynastic marriages are made for the good of the country, surely after 100+ years the public must know what good Brazil gets as a result.

Its a pretty basic question: what good has come to Brazil and the Brazilians as a result of these marriages?