Brazilian Marriage Rules & Musings

[BrazilianEmpire]

I found this beautiful image on internet.

Prince Rafael of Brazil and Princess Alexandra of Luxembourg would make a beautifull couple. Also, Empress Alexandra of Brazil sound really good for me.

Both are very beautiful young people.

Prince Rafael - http://forumbrasilimperial.forumeiros.com/t43-sar-o-principe-dom-rafael-do-brasil-1986

Princess Alexandra - http://www.allthingsroyal.nl/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/PrAlexandra20ans_img_02.jpg

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Indeed, they would make a beautiful couple.
Thanks for share those images, Helena.

 

[NGalitzine]

People of that ilk exists in all countries. It's up to you decide to hang with them.

Yes, thankfully there are young, hip, creative, active people in all countries. Terribly dull if there were not, everyday would be as exciting as visiting grandma on bingo night in the home.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Yes, thankfully there are young, hip, creative, active people in all countries. Terribly dull if there were not.

I agree with you.

But there's a huge difference between "young, hip, creative, active" and "sexualised", "unfaithful" and "jealous".

 

[NGalitzine]

I agree with you.

But there's a huge difference between "young, hip, creative, active" and "sexualised", "unfaithful" and "jealous".

OK OK, I will accept your view, despite all evidence to the contrary, that Brazilians are really quite puritanical and Calvinist, virginal until marriage, always faithful and thus never jealous. Obviously the image that Brazil portrays to attract tourist dollars is bogus and Brazilian expats who talk about how sexy and passionate Brazilians are are just lying to keep up the image for the tourists. Probably the young people on the beaches and in the clubs were just hired to portray sexy and any fights were just over spilled drinks and not because some man looked too long at another mans wife/girlfriend. The club owner was probably wrong when he pointed out which men were married and in the club with people other than their wives and being careful about who would see them. He was probably also wrong when he said Brazilian women know these things about their husbands but chose to turn a blind eye. Really concierges, club owners, business guides in Rio, SP and Forteleza should correct the stories they tell foreign visitors lest we get an image that is not terribly puritanical about your people.

I am sure of course that the former Imperial Family have all the virtues that you expect.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

OK OK, I will accept your view, despite all evidence to the contrary, that Brazilians are really quite puritanical and Calvinist, virginal until marriage, always faithful and thus never jealous.

Not Calvinists and Puritans, nor the sluts and fornicators you are trying to say we are.

Obviously the image that Brazil portrays to attract tourist dollars is bogus and Brazilian expats who talk about how sexy and passionate Brazilians are are just lying to keep up the image for the tourists.

Well, they said this to take your money.

And, if you went to a country only looking for those things, that's tell more about you than about the country.

Probably the young people on the beaches and in the clubs were just hired to portray sexy and any fights were just over spilled drinks and not because some man looked too long at another mans wife/girlfriend. The club owner was probably wrong when he pointed out which men were married and in the club with people other than their wives and being careful about who would see them. He was probably also wrong when he said Brazilian women know these things about their husbands but chose to turn a blind eye.

Now I understand, there was a bit of cultural shock.

But you'll see more shocking things at beaches and nightclubs of Europe.

Really concierges, club owners, business guides in Rio, SP and Forteleza should correct the stories they tell foreign visitors lest we get an image that is not terribly puritanical about your people.

Again, they were just trying to take your money. And seems that they were successful.

I am sure of course that the former Imperial Family have all the virtues that you expect.

That's what really matters.

And don't use the word former to describe the Imperial Family, because they are all alive.

 

[Ish]

OK OK, I will accept your view, despite all evidence to the contrary, that Brazilians are really quite puritanical and Calvinist, virginal until marriage, always faithful and thus never jealous. Obviously the image that Brazil portrays to attract tourist dollars is bogus and Brazilian expats who talk about how sexy and passionate Brazilians are are just lying to keep up the image for the tourists. Probably the young people on the beaches and in the clubs were just hired to portray sexy and any fights were just over spilled drinks and not because some man looked too long at another mans wife/girlfriend. The club owner was probably wrong when he pointed out which men were married and in the club with people other than their wives and being careful about who would see them. He was probably also wrong when he said Brazilian women know these things about their husbands but chose to turn a blind eye. Really concierges, club owners, business guides in Rio, SP and Forteleza should correct the stories they tell foreign visitors lest we get an image that is not terribly puritanical about your people.

I am sure of course that the former Imperial Family have all the virtues that you expect.

Not Calvinist - Catholic. C'mon!

 

[Ish]

Now I understand, there was a bit of cultural shock.

But you'll see more shocking things at beaches and nightclubs of Europe.

If there was a culture shock because NGalitzine isn't used to seeing a sexualized people like that, then it means that the Brazilian people are more sexualized than the people where NGalitzine comes from. You're not proving your point here.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Not Calvinist - Catholic. C'mon!

In fact, we have a great religious diversity here. I'm the son of a Catholic father and a Jewish mother.

If there was a culture shock because NGalitzine isn't used to seeing a sexualized people like that, then it means that the Brazilian people are more sexualized than the people where NGalitzine comes from. You're not proving your point here.

Well, bikinis and swimwear are proper clothes to use at beach. There's nothing sexual on that.

 

[NGalitzine]

If there was a culture shock because NGalitzine isn't used to seeing a sexualized people like that, then it means that the Brazilian people are more sexualized than the people where NGalitzine comes from. You're not proving your point here.

LOL so true, but in all honesty the Brazilians behaved no differently than people in the South of France, Marbella, Ibiza, or the Greek islands or anywhere else in Europe or NA and I didnt expect a real difference either. I do think the supposed portrayal of Brazilians as puritanical, devout Catholic, virginal until marriage, monogamous etc etc is just as wrong there as it would be in most other places in this day and age especially with younger people.

And don't use the word former to describe the Imperial Family, because they are all alive.

I call all formerly reigning families former because it is the correct term. They are not a reiging family, they are a formerly reigning family regardless if descendents of the former Imperial Family still live.

Personally I believe that when your family lost their throne so long ago that no one is alive from when they were the reigning family you have become just common citizens with just a interesting set of ancestors.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Even the Republican Government recognizes them as the Imperial Family.
Prince Luiz was referred as the Head of the Brazilian Imperial House, in a Government's tv program.
Usually Princes and Princesses are invited to represent the Imperial Family at official events.

When your Queen visited my country, in 1968, the Head of the Imperial Family, by that time the late Prince Pedro Henrique, met with her, on behalf of the Goverment. And the handful of Imperial, Royal and Princely Houses that exists recognize the existence of a Brazilian Imperial Family. They aren't "just common citizens with just a interesting set of ancestors", they have titles and rank. By royal pratices, even the Prince of Wales would be required to bow to the Head of the Brazilian Imperial House.

 

[vkrish]

By royal pratices, even the Prince of Wales would be required to bow to the Head of the Brazilian Imperial House.

NO...NO..NO...
I dont approve that..
The Prince of Wales bows only to reigning monarchs, deposed monarchs and their consorts.
Any evidence of his bowing to the so-called long-lost Royals/Imperials will be thoroughly appreciated..

 

[USCtrojan]

Prince Rafael of Brazil and Princess Alexandra of Luxembourg would make a beautifull couple. Also, Empress Alexandra of Brazil sound really good for me.

Who is to say that they will fall in love and want to get married? Or that the Princess does not already have a love of her own that is not talked about?

...The Prince of Wales bows only to reigning monarchs, deposed monarchs and their consorts.
Any evidence of his bowing to the so-called long-lost Royals/Imperials will be thoroughly appreciated..

Agreed!

I have heard of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge curtsying to HRH CP Margarita of Romania -this however is a bit of a different situation as Mihai is still alive and is a former reigning monarch, and perhaps the couple felt it was appropriate to do so.

I am not sure what might exactly would be said or thought of in terms of the imperial house as there is no longer a former reigning monarch still alive, but I feel that Margarita is a good example of sorts for this situation. If that makes any cents.

 

[Ish]

The idea generally agreed upon is once a royal, always a royal - Michael of Romania is still treated as a reigning king among other royals because he was a king - and the family is active in it's attempts for a restoration of the monarchy at some point.

The Brazilian imperial family, like the Russian, French, etc families, is a different case. No one claiming any one of these thrones was ever a king themselves, and in most cases a good number of the members of the families were not born to a family in power or even to people who themselves were born to people who had been born to a family in power. The Brazilian family may have titles, but they're empty titles in a non-monarchist state. Every so-called head of the family since 1891 - according to the idea that once a king always a king - has been a pretender, and consequently, in my opinion at least, the heir to a current monarch should not be expected to now or curtsey to the head of the Brazilian family.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

NO...NO..NO...
I dont approve that..

Sorry, but isn't you the one who has to approve Royal Protocol.

Who is to say that they will fall in love and want to get married? Or that the Princess does not already have a love of her own that is not talked about?

We are forbidden to speculate now? Or this is only permitted when regarding Reigning Houses?

 

[vkrish]

Sorry, but isn't you the one who has to approve Royal Protocol.

Ok then is that you who dictates Royal Protocol?
Dont get personal, leaving behind the real point I raised in my post..
I just asked you to show me any literature/document/article/news/pic/vid that shows/implies/dictates/suggests that The Prince of Wales bow to the so-called head of the so-called Imperial House of Brazil..or Duc d'Anjou or Maria Frederinova..
If you can show thats OK otherwise fine leave it..

PS: Nothing personal. I found your post straight and sharp, so wanted to give back the same way lol..

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Ok then is that you who dictates Royal Protocol?
Dont get personal, leaving behind the real point I raised in my post..

Not me, nor you. Which dictates Royal Protocol is Tradition.

I just asked you to show me any literature/document/article/news/pic/vid that shows/implies/dictates/suggests that The Prince of Wales bow to the so-called head of the so-called Imperial House of Brazil..or Duc d'Anjou or Maria Frederinova..
If you can show thats OK otherwise fine leave it..

Prince Luiz isn't higher in precedence than the Prince of Wales because he's the Pretender to a Throne unoccupied for more than a century. He's higher in precedence because his the Head of House.

Also, Prince Luiz is a Imperial Highness, while the Prince of Wales is "just" a Royal Highness, so, the Head of the Imperial House has a righer rank.

Read about Protocol and Precedence.

You don't think that deposed Royals are Royals, but thats not the opinion of the other Royal Familes. For them, once a Royal, always a Royal.

PS: Nothing personal. I found your post straight and sharp, so wanted to give back the same way lol..

Oh, wasn't my intention. Sorry.

 

[Marengo]

And now that is settled, it is time to discuss this particular discussion in a thread that is dedicated to potential marriage partners for the Brazilian heir(s). Such matters can be discussed int he 'Royal Ceremony and Protocol subforum of the General Royal Discussion Forum, which you can find here:

Royal Ceremony and Protocol - The Royal Forums

 

[GracieGiraffe]

A very interesting topic. Fascinating that these expectations exist in the 21st Century, but hey, different strokes for different folks.

The marriage, of course, would be semi-arranged, because the chances of falling in love with one of such a small group of suitable women, and the changes of having that romantic love returned by one in this very small group is rather remote. So the pair might say they're in love, but it will largely be of the arranged kind.

However, arranged marriages can work out better than marriages for love. Being "in love" does not last and then all couples must go through ups and downs. Perhaps it is better to marry a royal who knows the deal going in, especially with all of the formalities that seem to be required. Also, there are less expectations as a couple in an arranged marriage, and the two can grow fond of each other.

While Rafael has indicated he is set on marrying a princess, I think that the real obstacle would be the suitable candidates themselves. He's looking at a European princess in the 21st Century. Whenever Cousin Rafael comes to town and a young princess of marriageable age is invited to a soiree in his honor, what must be going through her mind? Is she willing to enter into a semi-arranged marriage? Is she willing to move to Brazil? Perhaps yes, perhaps no.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. I hope he finds his "suitable bride" and they fall in love and live happily ever after, with loads of children who follow in their footsteps.

 

[Iluvbertie]

So true GG - these days princesses are fully aware that they can marry for love and that choosing to marry a non-royal is fully allowed.

Finding a princess who is prepared to go through an arranged marriage - which fell out of favour in Europe 100 years ago - could be difficult along with the fact that they would have to move half-way across the world to do so and be away from family and friends and for what real gain - a non-existent throne.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

A very interesting topic. Fascinating that these expectations exist in the 21st Century, but hey, different strokes for different folks.

Finally, not a xenophobic opinion. Thank you, Gracie.

The marriage, of course, would be semi-arranged...

Maybe arranged marriage isn't the best suited term.
But, of course, Prince Rafael has to pick a wife from a very select group. The selection will certainly be arranged, but not the marriage.

And love can move all the barriers. Here is an interview Prince Rafael's mother, Princess Cristina (née Princess of Ligne) gave to a Belgian magazine. Her Royal Highness talked about her marriage with Prince Antônio. It's safe to assume that Prince Rafael's marriage will be a similar situation. The interview is in French, but you can use Google to translate. http://www.eventail.be/detail_sections.php5?i=1569

...I hope he finds his "suitable bride" and they fall in love and live happily ever after, with loads of children who follow in their footsteps.

Amen!

Finding a princess who is prepared to go through an arranged marriage - which fell out of favour in Europe 100 years ago - could be difficult...

The lives of Marie-Astrid and Margaretha of Luxembourg, Cristina of Ligne, Eleonora of Brazil, Sophie of Isenburg and so many other Princesses can easily prove your sentence wrong. All of them marry equally, in some cases with Princes of non-reigning Houses, two of them had to move to another continent, and they are all happily married with a bunch of children.

 

[Mariel]

It is absolutely unsafe for closely related people to marry, because of hidden genetic flaws which may emerge. So marriage with Alexandra of Luxembourg is frightening.
if he has to have an authentic princess, there are Mako and Kako in Japan. Very well bred young ladies!
.

 

[Iluvbertie]

The lives of Marie-Astrid and Margaretha of Luxembourg, Cristina of Ligne, Eleonora of Brazil, Sophie of Isenburg and so many other Princesses can easily prove your sentence wrong.

All of them marry equally, in some cases with Princes of non-reigning Houses, two of them had to move to another continent, and they are all happily married with a bunch of children.

Married equally - for love or for arrangement.


Arranged marriages are what fell out of favour in the early 20th century.

Marriages for love are what became the norm for royal princesses and they would expect nothing less in this day and age.

A love match would work if the bride had to move to another continent - e.g. Princess Mary of Denmark but an arranged marriage in this day and age would add a stress to the existing unease about the marriage.

 

[USCtrojan]

Agreed! Arranged marriages are so much a thing of the past! Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there is one here and there, but I can't see Henri and Maria-Theresa of Luxembourg forcing or even suggesting that their daughter marry someone just because he is a prince. I could see them suggesting that she marry fir love and telling her to follow her heart, but not forcing her or telling her to acceptance arranged marriage!

Alexandra of Luxembourg will likely marry for love -if the prince wants to marry her, I would hope that his intentions are more than just a title as hunting a princess for marriage in this day and age just doesn't work. Perhaps in a country where it is tradition -Luxembourg is not a country of tradition like that anymore. Henri and Maria-Theresa ended that, and I don't see their children excepting anything less than what they have.

Just a few honest thoughts that are not meant to be rude in anyway -please don't take it as such.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

...Arranged marriages are what fell out of favour in the early 20th century...

No one here ever suggested that Prince Rafael should have an arranged marriage.
You know, it's possible to marry equally and for love. History is full of fine examples of that.

...Arranged marriages are so much a thing of the past!

No one ever suggested to force Prince Rafael to marry Princess Alexandra. The only thing it was said is that she's the most suitable bride for him. I'm pretty sure that both Highnesses will marry for love.

...there are Mako and Kako in Japan. Very well bred young ladies!

Prince Rafael has to marry a Catholic Princess, so, one of the Akishino Princesses are out of question, unless she converts.
.

 

[cmbruno]

...if he has to have an authentic princess, there are Mako and Kako in Japan. Very well bred young ladies!

I think this idea is adorable! We have a lot of Japanese imimgrants here in Brazil that would go ecstatic if it ever happens.
Our people has no (little) problem in embracing people of other ethnicities and this eventual marriage would bring - as a side effect - a lot of good publicity.
The Japanese princesses are indeed very well bred traditional ladies and quite cute also.
.

 

[julliette]

^^ But it has the religion problem, the japanese princesses are not catholic. Would they be willing to convert? We don't know.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Would they be willing to convert? We don't know.

I doubt they will.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

I found a interview were Princess Maria Gabriela (Prince Rafael's younger sister) said she also intends to marry equally.

The interview, in portuguese: http://www.monarquia.org.br/PDFs/HP-27-WEB.pdf

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Good girl.
Prince Antônio and Princess Cristina are excellent parents. Their children know how to behave as members of the Brazilian Imperial Family.

...If he has to have an authentic princess, there are Mako and Kako in Japan.

I like the Japanese Princesses, but they aren't fit for an ocidental Imperial House. Prince Rafael will be better married with a European Princess, from a Catholic House.