Restoration of Monarchy in Austria

[SydneyLux]

No he didn't - he didn't have to do, because Archduke Otto had renounced to all claims to the Austrian throne for himself and his descendants, Karl included.

That is not correct.

In his renouncation of 31 May 1961, he explicity wrote of "my membership to the House of Habsburg-Lorraine" and did not mention his descendants. (I have a picture of it somewhere; if you want, I can search for and upload it.)

Karl never needed to renounce his membership anyway. Technically, only Otto as well as his brother Carl-Ludwig and Felix (as well as male members of the House who were born before the end of the Empire) were required to renounce their membership to the House as they were born before the end of the Empire. There was a court ruling in favour of their brother Rudolf in 1980 as he filed a lawsuit against the republic and the outcome was that only members of the Habsburg family born before 19 April 1919 are (were) banned to enter the country. Carl-Ludwig and Felix never signed a waiver and thus neither renounced their membership nor their title as Austria had become a member of the EU in the mid-1990's and the EU criticised the ban as being against human rights and it was thus lifted.

But back to Otto and Karl... I have heard that Otto only decided to renounce his right as his wife had given birth to their first son a few months earlier as his headship would have naturally passed to Karl - instead of Robert, who would have been next in line before - in case anyone disputed his headship.

There are some people who claim that Karl had actually been head of the House since 1961 as Otto legally renounced his membership of the House. Otto himself called the waiver fiction. His mother and brothers did not like it but I do not think that they ever seriously disputed his headship. The same people say that either Otto made all decisions for Karl as his legal guardian or that Robert acted as guardian in Habsburg matters for his nephew. As Otto still made decisions and amended house rules when Karl was of majority for many years, I myself do not follow their argumentation which would also mean that Georg is neither in line of succession nor a member of the House as he was born after 1961 when his father renounced his membership.

Zita was allowed into the country after King Juan Carlos threatened a diplomatic incident during meetings with Bruno Kreisky in the early 1980's. The official reasoning given was that she only was a Habsburg by marriage and did not have any claim to the throne herself. She then entered the country to visit the Stephansdom and meet with the bishop, it was during the time when the wish of a beatification of Emperor Karl grew stronger.

 

[SydneyLux]

Probably the daughter of Archduke Ferdinand and Archduchess Helene, née Countess zu Toerring-Jettenbach is meant as her name is Sophie and she is married to Fürst Mariano Hugo zu Windisch-Greatz.

Indeed. She, or rather her husband's family, has a bunch of historical Habsburg jewels.

But she keept her Wedding tiara which was later giiven to daughter-in-law Regina who wore it at her Wedding Day. In one book i also read that around 1920/21 one of ther trusted sold some old Family Jewels (going back to Maria Theresia) which they wanted to keep, and went away with the Money.

I was told - unfortunately, I could never find a written reference to it - that the wedding tiara was smuggled out of the country by a confident (that's what apparently also happened to a few other personal items). If anyone has any info about the tiara, I would be very grateful

 

[MAfan]

Thank you for the clarification and the correction of my mistake.

Just there is one thing that is still unclear to me. If I have correctly understood, only in 1980 it was decided that only those born before 19 April 1919 had to renounce their membership to the Imperial Family in order to be allowed to enter to Austria. So if Otto's renounciation applied only to himself, what was Karl's (and Georg's) position until 1980?

ETA: it would be great if you could share with us the picture of Otto's renounciation, thank you in advance!

 

[Kit]

The famous wedding tiara of Zita made by Köchert! Yes it made headlines in the early 90ies cause Karl tried to smuggle it from Switzerland to Austria and was discovered at the state border. LOL

 

[Marengo]

Is it forbidden to take your (family's) own jewels to Austria?

 

[SydneyLux]

The famous wedding tiara of Zita made by Köchert! Yes it made headlines in the early 90ies cause Karl tried to smuggle it from Switzerland to Austria and was discovered at the state border. LOL

Wasn't it at an airport? But anyway, not very smart of him... Didn't know though that it was the wedding tiara. I have read somewhere that it (along with the rest of Regina's wedding jewellery) was donated to the treasury of statue of the Virgin Mary in Mariazell though I don't recall the year but it's possible that it was some time in the late 1990's.

Thank you for the clarification and the correction of my mistake.

Just there is one thing that is still unclear to me. If I have correctly understood, only in 1980 it was decided that only those born before 19 April 1919 had to renounce their membership to the Imperial Family in order to be allowed to enter to Austria. So if Otto's renounciation applied only to himself, what was Karl's (and Georg's) position until 1980?

ETA: it would be great if you could share with us the picture of Otto's renounciation, thank you in advance!

Firstly, Otto's waiver. For those who don't speak German: "I (...) declare herewith that (...) I waive my membership to the House of Habsburg-Lorraine and all resulting claims to power, and profess myself to be a loyal citizen of the republic." (Sorry if the wording is a little off but I tried to stay with the original as close as possible.) Btw, he was only able to visit Austria for the first time again in 1966 (Innsbruck) and Vienna the following years as some parties were still not in favour of him being allowed to visit despite a ruling of 1963 which said that his declaration (renounciation) fulfilled all requirements.

Can't recall when Karl and Georg got their first Austrian passports though I remember that they got them from the Austrian general consulate in Munich and they stated "allows entrance to all countries but Austria". Otto got his in 1966 and I think that his family got their's a little before that though I'm a little shaky on the details. I seem to recall Otto's nephew Carl-Christian stating that he visited Austria for the first time during the 1970's and neither his father nor he himself ever signed a waiver, so it must have been possible to enter for Blessed Emperor Karl's grandchildren during time. (Though it's also possible that Christian travelled on a passport that made it rather hard for the border guards to recognise him. I know that as a child and teenager he travelled on a Belgian passport using the last name "de Bar" as did his mother Yolande and his siblings.)

 

[MAfan]

Is it forbidden to take your (family's) own jewels to Austria?

No, it isn't, but you have to declare it to customs officials and pay customs duties.
If I recall correctly, it happened in 1996; Karl didn't declare to customs officials that he was carrying the tiara, trying to avoid customs duties, but the officials discovered it and he was eventually fined for smuggling.

 

[SydneyLux]

Is it forbidden to take your (family's) own jewels to Austria?

You have a point there. It makes sense if it would have been a newly-purchased piece of jewellery as it would have the same status as clothes or any technical gadget (*). If it was the wedding tiara, it would have been made by Köchert, thus purchased in Austria and you wouldn't need to pay customs for a tiara bought in Austria bringing it into Austria again, would you?!

(Karl had already made Austria his home during that time; if he bought expensive jewellery, clothes or any other products over X amount of money abroad, he would need to declare it at customs.)

 

[Admiral Horthy]

What are the legal penalties for using a title socially in Austria? Especially since they needed special permission to use titles and songs during Otto's funeral?

 

[Kit]

In the first Austrian Republic you had to pay one Schilling each time you used your title socially after the abolishment of the monarchy. Well as a currency the Schilling no longer exits since 2002 and in fact nothing happens at all if you use it within certain social circles. Officially you can not use a title on your personal documents like your birth certificate, marriage certificate,passport,etc. and therefore from a legal point of view you do not have a title. As far as I recall the problem at AD Otto's funeral was that the family wanted the old Kaiserhymn to be sung officially and therefore they needed a permission.

 

[Admiral Horthy]

But couldn't they just convert the fine to Euros? Seems unfair to not allow people to use their titles socially. Even more unfair to not be permitted to use one's real name (Von Habsburg vs. just Habsburg).

 

[Kit]

Yes of course the government could convert it. But it is simply no big deal here in Austria. The Habsburgs do not care about it, the rest of the Austrian Nobility does not care about it and the Austrian citizens certainly do not care about it. There are more than enough other economic problems calling for a solution with the current financial crisis so nobody thinks of changing the 100 year old constitution when there is absolutely no need or wish for it to be changed.

 

[Warren]

...the family wanted the old Kaiserhymn to be sung officially and therefore they needed a permission.

The permission of the government was required for them to sing a song at a funeral?
What would have happened if the government refused permission but they sang the song anyway?
This seems more apposite to the former USSR or Russia than to a Western European liberal democratic nation.

 

[Kit]

For the requiem because the Austrian government attended it. But this was only pro forma. And rumour told by the media. Of course they were allowed to sing it even without said permission. Nothing would have happened at all. In fact the relationship between the government and AD Karl is quite good. There are no hard feelings now. But I have often wondered about the bad treatment of the family and the strict Habsburg laws installed during the 1.Republic. I still do not fully understand the reasons for it.

 

[maria-olivia]

I remember how happy the Prince of Liechtenstein was to hear the unexpected Kaiserhymn.

During the Funerals , on the two first places were sitting the president of Austria and his wife.

 

[SElizabeth]

Kit:
I have often wondered if the people of Austria would consider restoring the monarchy to something like the rest of the royals families of the world? Even though I live in the US, I still believe that to a certain degree monarchies are what keep the history of the people alive as that is what and how their countries have been founded all these hundreds of years....it would not be popular here in this country as we started off without a monarchy. Being a history buff I have no problems with monarchies if they are for the people and do their job in developing their country.

 

[Kit]

The thing is that the majority of Austrian citizens do not even know that Austria was once a huge Empire. Especially the younger generation does not even care the slightest bit about a monarchy. Austria is now for nearly 100 years Republic and since 1955 a very stable and rich one too. A monarchy was never more unlikely than now. Don't think we will ever be a monarchy again. There is simply no wish for it.

 

[SElizabeth]

Kit,
Thank you for your response, I do have a question, aren't the children in school taught about their country's history, the beginnings and to the present? Even here in America as a child I learnt about how this country broke away from the British and what transpired to make it what it is today, what, sometimes I don't even know my country anymore because it sure is very different and difficult from when I was a child, so with all that, aren't the people interested in this country's history? Being without a monarchy for 100 years I can understand now how people would not want one, yet in your country there is such an abundance of history of kings and queens, buildings, art works, food, in fact at one time long time ago I worked as a volunteer on the clothing collection of the Habsburgs here in New York City at a museum that was showing the collection..........this was when I bought a home in Ridgewood NJ from a lady who was in charge of the collection and we became friends and I know about needlework, so she let me become a volunteer and it was one of the highlights of my life to work and actually see these beautiful clothes. I have a big appreciation of history and all the wonderful things that have survived the times. Someday I so want to go to Vienna and hear the opera and the music and eat the rich deserts.

Thank you for all your information!

 

[SydneyLux]

For the requiem because the Austrian government attended it. But this was only pro forma. And rumour told by the media. Of course they were allowed to sing it even without said permission. Nothing would have happened at all. In fact the relationship between the government and AD Karl is quite good. There are no hard feelings now. But I have often wondered about the bad treatment of the family and the strict Habsburg laws installed during the 1.Republic. I still do not fully understand the reasons for it.

Are you sure about the permission? I, too, remember it being said by the press at the time of the funeral but I also remember an interview with President Fischer in which he states that he was surprised to hear the Kaiserhymne. Funnily, just as he said that he was fine with it being played, the flag of the Austrian republic behind him fell down. Of course the President isn't the government but it would be surprising if they didn't tell him about it if they had been asked, IMO.

I quite liked what Cardinal Schönborn said prior to the anthem being sung. He put it in perspective quite nicely.

 

[claypoint2]

Kit,
Thank you for your response, I do have a question, aren't the children in school taught about their country's history, the beginnings and to the present? Even here in America as a child I learnt about how this country broke away from the British and what transpired to make it what it is today, what, sometimes I don't even know my country anymore because it sure is very different and difficult from when I was a child, so with all that, aren't the people interested in this country's history? Being without a monarchy for 100 years I can understand now how people would not want one, yet in your country there is such an abundance of history of kings and queens, buildings, art works, food, in fact at one time long time ago I worked as a volunteer on the clothing collection of the Habsburgs here in New York City at a museum that was showing the collection..........this was when I bought a home in Ridgewood NJ from a lady who was in charge of the collection and we became friends and I know about needlework, so she let me become a volunteer and it was one of the highlights of my life to work and actually see these beautiful clothes. I have a big appreciation of history and all the wonderful things that have survived the times. Someday I so want to go to Vienna and hear the opera and the music and eat the rich deserts.

Thank you for all your information!

Yes, Austrian children study history, and Austrians in general tend to be well educated. From everything I gather through multiple sources, however, there appears to be no interest in restoring the monarchy among the people of Austria, except perhaps in a few individuals with close ties to the Habsburgs.

I suppose that yours is really a question of political philosophy and/or economics; there are those who believe that the value of a constitutional monarchy exceeds its cost to the state, and there are those who believe that it doesn't. At this time it seems that a large majority of Austrians fall in the latter camp... to the extent that they even think about the issue, which is really not on the national radar.

 

[Kit]

Exactly Claypoint! You have explained it quite well. Plus the fact that not many Austrians know who the current head of the family is. The Habsburgs lead a relatively private life and history classes in school about the House Habsburg -Lothringen usually end with the death of Emperor Karl in Madeira. @SydneyLux As far as I recall the government and PM Faymann expressed their condolences to Karl in private and apparently he asked for the Kaiserhymn to be played at the Requiem which was no problem for all parties involved.

 

[jaro]

I can bring insight from the side of Czechs and Slovaks as I was born in Slovakia and now live in Czech republic. I also lived in Vienna for one year but returned back.

From all royal families, Habsburgs are probably in the worst position since their former empire is splintered into many small countries. From those countries only Austria and Hungary have a long and popular tradition of kingdom as only they were well represented politically.

Slovakia was part of Hungary and at the end of 19th century Hungarians misused their political power to try to "erase" identities and languages other than their own as it was seen a threat to the kingdom. What is often forgotten is that in other counrties like Britain, Russia exactly the same thing was happening. In history books this period is usually depicted negatively, the kingdom being backward, slow to reform. So there is nothing good connected to monarchy in Slovakia and Slovaks would never accept a Hungarian king as their own. There is no party for restoration of Monarchy in Slovakia.

Czechs had their kingdom for quite some time before being joined with Austria. But Habsburgs are seen as "foreign" rulers, not respecting Czech interests in the past. People do not care about monarchies or the Habsburg family. There is a party for restoration of monarchy, similarly like in Austria, but with minimal support. If I had voting rights in Czech republic I would probably vote for it.

In general there is a crisis of democracy in the eastern counties, its best seen in Hungary (Victor Orban firmly in power, main oposition Jobbik a radical nationalist party), then Slovakia (Robert Fico has also a sole party in power, not going to change soon). In Czech republic no single party has managed to grab power yet. The main problem is political parties functioning like mafia - with the purpose of gaining power and using it to fund their existence (from state funds) and to maintain it (using dirty means) not really caring about real problems. People see it but every new party turns out to be the same. In some countries like Russia it was solved in autocratic way by electing Putin, who does not betray Russia and in exchange he gets wide support. I do not see how this problem can be resolved well here. This is a chance for a pro monarchy party to present a different solution where the political power is party held by a monarch.

The highest chance for restoration is in Austria or Hungary, but even there its very small, only theoretical. Nothing happens without approval of parliament and its extremely unlikely a pro monarchy restoration party makes it in there. Although if they managed to restore monarchy in one of the countries with positive results, it could result in others accepting them in a decade or so.

However we are speaking about a constitutional monarchy. But due to the former empire being splintered, many problems would arise - common currency? common army? some kind of limited common government (finance, foreign affairs, defense)? have common upper house of parliament in Vienna? With so many nationalities you can bet they wouldn't agree on anything. Btw the parliament in Vienna was built for the monarchy and they have the historical part of it that looks really nice (not sure its used) - http://www.digico.biz/public/images/news_img/Austrian_Parliament_2.jpg, the other part looks very socialist. http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images...17387877114/Members-of-the-Austrian-p-006.jpg

I can just tell that people may be more willing to cede power to a parliament representing a relatively small region (the monarchy) rather than the EU. People are pretty hostile to giving the EU any more power, and in my opinion its time to reduce the powers of the EU and cede them back. In hindsight I think the decision to accept euro in Slovakia was a mistake and we may have to leave it in the future. In Czech republic there is absolutely no chance of accepting euro. People see the incompetence of the EU and want its influence reduced. With the current migration crissis in the EU many people would even vote to leave the EU. If this problem is not resolved very soon (it doesn't look so) the end of EU may be near.

 

[Frozen Royalist]

Anything New?

So, any new opinion polls on the matter lately? Any more people in favor, against, or still the same? I'm just curious that's all because I would like to see a Archduchy/Kingdom of Austria again.

-Frozen Royalist
I'm very new here and this is my first post and I apologize If I'm intruding I'm just breaving a little life into this thread.

Actually one way to ensure a restoration is to unite all of Austria under Liechtenstein, not only are we booting your president but we're giving you to your tiny neighbor, have a good day.

 

[Cory]

An important reparation should be to give back the properties taken to the Habsburgs in 1919 and to let them use the von in their surname.

 

[Frozen Royalist]

In the event that there ever is a restoration would this lead to a change of the flag and coat of arms?

-Frozen Royalist

 

[Kitty1224]

I don't think so. Although it would be amazing to witness if it did happen.

 

[Frozen Royalist]

Austrian Poll

Well here is some good news, there was a recent poll in Austria, a couple weeks ago in fact, where 20% of the population is in favor of a restoration of the monarchy. This revives my hope in Austria, although I wish the group heading the restoration would just settle for Austria and maybe Hungary, you know a United Kingdom of Austria and Hungary instead of also gunning for Czechia, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Croatia to be in the union, don't want a repeat of Yugoslavia now do we? Just wish the Black-Yellow Alliance could at least improve itself while also strumming up more support and appetite for a restoration. I mean Österreich does consist of the German words for East and Kingdom after all.

-Frozen Royalist

Here is the link to the website: https://www.efe.com/efe/english/pat...some-nostalgic-for-monarchy/50000268-3809622#

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Well here is some good news, there was a recent poll in Austria, a couple weeks ago in fact, where 20% of the population is in favor of a restoration of the monarchy. This revives my hope in Austria, although I wish the group heading the restoration would just settle for Austria and maybe Hungary, you know a United Kingdom of Austria and Hungary instead of also gunning for Czechia, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Croatia to be in the union, don't want a repeat of Yugoslavia now do we? Just wish the Black-Yellow Alliance could at least improve itself while also strumming up more support and appetite for a restoration. I mean Österreich does consist of the German words for East and Kingdom after all.

-Frozen Royalist

Here is the link to the website: https://www.efe.com/efe/english/pat...some-nostalgic-for-monarchy/50000268-3809622#

So 80% has no appetite. A humiliation in any referendum.

 

[Mbruno]

The thing is that the majority of Austrian citizens do not even know that Austria was once a huge Empire. Especially the younger generation does not even care the slightest bit about a monarchy. Austria is now for nearly 100 years Republic and since 1955 a very stable and rich one too. A monarchy was never more unlikely than now. Don't think we will ever be a monarchy again. There is simply no wish for it.

Do you think the Habsburg monarchy is more likely to be restored in Hungary though rather than in Austria ? Would the Hungarians accept. “German” ruling family ?

 

[Blog Real]

What is the position of the Habsburg Family in relation to a restoration of the monarchy?