Heirs to the Austrian Throne and House Rules


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
The family is not listed in the second part of the Almanach de Gotha, (which contains the mediatised houses), but only in the 3rd part, which lists the highest nobility. The text in the almanach de Gotha only says that in 1788 they also became incorperated as counts in Westphalia while in 1923 they received the prefix of 'Highness'.

The family would have been mediatised as they owned property in the holy roman emprie, which they ruled. But in 1804 they sold it to the Esterhazy family. However in terms of prestige the de Ligne family ranks higher than many mediatised houses (but that is IMO perhaps). Eugene de Ligne was initially offered the Belgian crown!

Note that the family, belongs to the so called 'Salon Bleu'. The salon bleu is a salon in the royal palace of Brussels. The king would receive the high nobility there. The members of a few families were allowed to 'tutoyer' the king and his family. There are 8 families of the salon bleu:

- Princes de Ligne
- Princes de Merode
- Princes de Chimey
- Princes Lobkovicz
- Princes d'Aremberg
- Dukes of Croÿ-Solre
- Dukes de Looz Corswarem
- Dukes d'Ursel
 
when did the rules change allowing marriages with nobles? and when did AD changed this rule allowing also marriages with commoners?
my doubts on AD Simeon were about his father marriages with noble ladies.
my doubts on Ligne family were due to the fact that Paul Theroff's site doesn't mark them with the asterisk used for mediatised houses ;)
can I express discontent for AD Otto decisions? Am I the only one?

It is not know when it was changed. it has to be sometimges in the late 90's/early 200='s as the maarige of Archduke Ramon in 1994 was not equal but the marriages of Archdukes Philipp and Konrad in 2005 and 2006 where approved. Apparently the only provision now is that the bride if family a christian faith.
 
But in 1993 the wedding of the Kronprinz Karl to Baroness Francesca von Thyssen-Bornemizsa was approved, and this scandalized Archdukes Felix and Carl Ludwig...and the children of all the Archdukes descendants from Emperor Charles I and his brother Maximilian are styled as Archdukes, also the children of the late Archduke Raimund.

Sorry, only a grandson of Archduke Felix is not recognised as Archduke, and he is the little Julien, eldest son of Archduke Karl Philipp, because he was born before his parents' marriage, in 1994.
 
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But in 1993 the wedding of the Kronprinz Karl to Baroness Francesca von Thyssen-Bornemizsa was approved, and this scandalized Archdukes Felix and Carl Ludwig...and the children of all the Archdukes descendants from Emperor Charles I and his brother Maximilian are styled as Archdukes, also the children of the late Archduke Raimund.

From where do you have the Information that Ramon's marriage was approved as equal? As for Francesca she was no commoner. She was a Baroness not from high nobility but at last no Commoner. Until the recent Change the bride had to be noble abnd then the marriage was approved.
 
In Paul Teroff's website nothing is written about a morganatic marriage of Ramon; moreover in this site (Archduke Ramon passed away yesterday), a thread of a forum about the death of Archduke Raimund, Raimund's choldren are referred as Archdukes, and it talks about new family laws signed in 1990.
 
In Paul Teroff's website nothing is written about a morganatic marriage of Ramon; moreover in this site (Archduke Ramon passed away yesterday), a thread of a forum about the death of Archduke Raimund, Raimund's choldren are referred as Archdukes, and it talks about new family laws signed in 1990.

Yes but on this Website they are referred to as Counts. They where also listed as Counts in one of the recent GHdA's. The law in 1990 was theat descendants of morgantic marriges where upgraded to Count/Countess of Haburg-Lothringen.
 
Well, now I don't know what to think...
Please, if someone knows exactly the status of them, tell us it!
 
repeatThanks very much for all the information, Marengo. And I agree with you.... I always had the impression that the two marriages between the Orleans-Bragance and the Ligne siblings (Antonio d'Orleans-Bragance and Christine de Ligne, Eleonore d'Orleans-Bragance and Michel de Ligne) were considered very good by both sides -- perhaps even equal.
 
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They are considered equal. The young man who tragically died in the airline crash was considered the heir to the Brazillian throne, after his uncle and father.
 
I spoke at the moment with HRH the Princess Alix de Ligne/Luxembourg and she was VERY happy and pride for both weddings.
I remember Princess Alix always remain HRH and her late husband HH Prince de Ligne.
Now HH Prince Michel de Ligne and HRH Princess Eleonore de Ligne.
The weddings were not totally equal..
Prince Antoine de Ligne (father) was Knight of the (Toison d' Or) translation gulden vlies ?? but not Prince Michel.
Only 3 members of the belgian nobility were knights of the Austrian Order , now ??.
 
As to the Este branch, much as I would like to see a princely coupling, the pressure must be on poor Amadeo to make a match that will conform to his father's prejudices.

Yes, poor Amedeo. Perhaps Maria-Annunciata or Marie-Astrid von und zu Liechtenstein? Although I imagine that they know each other very well already through their Habsbourg-Nassau cousins (the children of AD Carl Christian and Marie-Astrid of Luxembourg)... not to mention that royal and noble circles in Belgium are very small and tight, so everybody knows everybody else. Oh, well. Good luck to him.
 
Yes, poor Amedeo. Perhaps Maria-Annunciata or Marie-Astrid von und zu Liechtenstein? Although I imagine that they know each other very well already through their Habsbourg-Nassau cousins (the children of AD Carl Christian and Marie-Astrid of Luxembourg)... not to mention that royal and noble circles in Belgium are very small and tight, so everybody knows everybody else. Oh, well. Good luck to him.
One of the Princess of Thurn und Taxis would be a good match, or Princess Theodara of Greece. Princess Marie of Bavaria is another one.
 
I suppose Alix de Ligne and him would be a nice match, dynastically speaking. And it would be good for the belgian RF to have another Belgian princess in their midst. On the downside, she is from Wallonia of course and she might not speak Dutch very well.
When the time is right I am sure AD Amedeo will marry somebody appropriate, it doesn't have to be a brilliant match like his father, but a Limburg-Stirum at the very least ;).

Still, these are his parents requirements, as said above according to the family laws he can marry any christian woman and keep his 'rights'.

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More match making can be done in this thread btw.
 
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Yes, poor Amedeo. Perhaps Maria-Annunciata or Marie-Astrid von und zu Liechtenstein? Although I imagine that they know each other very well already through their Habsbourg-Nassau cousins (the children of AD Carl Christian and Marie-Astrid of Luxembourg)... not to mention that royal and noble circles in Belgium are very small and tight, so everybody knows everybody else. Oh, well. Good luck to him.

You forget that Maria-Anunciata and Marie-Astrid are also his cousins. He isn't just related to the Habsbourg/Nassau families. Anunciata and Astrid are the granddaughters of Grand Duchess Josephine-Charlotte who is the sister of Amedeo's grandfather. They have been raised as cousins and are very close. I sincerely doubt they would ever consider each other as potential partners.
 
Kataryn said:
Today the herediary Count Neipperg is married to Archduchess Andrea of Austria, eldest child of Otto von Habsburg and the late Archduchess Regina.
And not to forget the other Archduchess, Marie Louise, the granddaughter of Maria-Theresia who married her Neipperg as well...
Nepperg family was also a mediatized one,but unfortunately it was left out in the list of acceptable families for marriages with Habsburgs from 19th century...

In the end everything comes to it's own place,just like these marriages ;)
 
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:previous:
The Neippergs were Counts of the Holy Empire from 1726 and mediatised into the Kingdom of Württemberg in 1806. By definition, the mediatised Neippergs would have been just as "equal" in the marriage stakes as any other mediatised comital house, or was there some factor which was held against them?

ETA.. OK I've discovered why the Habsburgs didn't consider the Neippergs to be equal although they were a mediatised house.

In 1900 Emperor Franz Josef signed a House Law which listed the conditions for an acceptable equal marriage:
1. a member of a princely house that had the right of Ebenbürtigkeit according to article 14 of the Act of German Confederation[1815] [ie, the mediatised houses]; and...
2. in accordance with the 1825 Act of the Emperor Franz I; and
3. who were mentioned by name in the list attached to the [1900] declaration.

Quite simply, despite being mediatised and therefore "equal", the Neippergs weren't princely, weren't on the list, and were therefore, in Habsburg eyes, unequal.

There was a further article stating that the (other) house must have family laws which held that Ebenbürtigkeit was a requirement for an equal marriage, and failing that, a potential Imperial spouse must demonstrate uninterrupted nobility for 300 years together with other complex and exacting conditions relating to the nobility of 16 direct ancestors, 8 paternal and 8 maternal.

I assume the 1900 House Law reinforced the Neipperg's equal-but-unequal status which may have been in place since at least 1825.

reference: House Law of the Austrian Imperial Family at heraldica.org
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I wonder if these clauses could clash. For instance if an Archduke had wanted to marry the daughter of Emperor Wilhelm of Germany, where her mothers grandmother was a mere Countess Danneskjold.
 
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As a countess she fulfilled the required point of being "noble" - it didin't mean that the ancestors had to be Royal but noble - which a countess is, of course.
 
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Further to "The List" of Mediatised Princely Houses which the Habsburgs considered as acceptable marriage partners, here it is, in two parts.

1. Houses domiciled in the Austrian Monarchy
2. Houses domiciled outside of the Austrian Monarchy

source: House Law of the Austrian Imperial Family at heraldica.org
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The rightful Heir after Archduke Franz will be his brother?
 
The present Head of the Imperial Family is Archduke Karl, since January 2007.
His heir is his son, Archduke Ferdinand. Then, after Ferdinand, the next in the line are Karl's younger brother, Archduke Georg; Georg's son, Archduke Károly-Konstantin; and then Karl and Georg's cousin, Archduke Lorenz of Austria-Este, Prince of Belgium.
 
Archduke Karl's marriage is not morganatic?
 
No, despite his wife Francesca is merely the daughter of a baron their marriage has been authorized by Archduke Otto and it is considered as equal.
 
It is rather strange of course to consider equal such a marriage.The members of the Imperial Family accept this?
 
Some members, and in particular the groom's uncles Archduke Felix and Archduke Carl Ludwig, didn't agree with Otto's decision to allow Karl and Francesca's marriage, and refused to attend the marriage.
Considering the Habsbugs high standards about the marriages of the Archdukes, it may be indeed strange to consider equal the marriage of the (titular) Crown Prince to a Baroness (relatively) recently ennobled; btw, it should also be noticed that in 1976 Archduke Otto acknowledged as equal the marriage of Carl Ludwig's son Rudolf to a Belgian baroness.
 
Obviously the rules were not respected by Dr.Otto Habsburg.
 
Obviously the rules were not respected by Dr.Otto Habsburg.

As Head of the House he could change the rules. And this is what he did. Nowadays it seems the brides only has to belong to a christian faith. Therefore woman like Maya al Askary, Mayasuni Heath and Ashwitha Goswami became Archduchesses with their marriages.
 
along the line i wonder exactly how often one married his or her own relative
 
You forget that Maria-Anunciata and Marie-Astrid are also his cousins. He isn't just related to the Habsbourg/Nassau families. Anunciata and Astrid are the granddaughters of Grand Duchess Josephine-Charlotte who is the sister of Amedeo's grandfather. They have been raised as cousins and are very close. I sincerely doubt they would ever consider each other as potential partners.

No, Lalla Meriem, I do not forget... but I also don't know why having grandparents as siblings would bar Amedeo from marrying either of the young Liechtenstein sisters.

To give one example from recent history: Archduke Carl-Christian of Austria and Princess Marie-Astrid of Luxembourg also had grandparents who were siblings. Princess Zita of Bourbon-Parma (who later became Empress of Austria and Queen of Hungary) was the paternal grandmother of Carl-Christian. One of Zita's brothers, Prince Felix of Bourbon-Parma, was the paternal grandfather of Marie-Astrid. And yet Carl-Christian and Marie-Astrid were able to marry without any problems from any quarter. On the contrary, there was widespread joy at their engagement.

In short, to have grandparents as siblings is no impediment... not from the Church, not from the state, not from the families. I'm not sure on what you are basing your comment.

On the other hand, it would be quite unthinkable for Princesses Maria-Anunciata or Marie-Astrid of Liechtenstein to marry either Archduke Imre, AD Christoph or AD Alexander of Austria (sons of AD Carl-Christian and Marie-Astrid), given that their mothers are sisters. That would (understandably) be impossible nowadays, even though it was quite common among royal families as recently as the late 19th century. Queen Victoria, for one, was famous for promoting marriages among her grandchildren; if you look at the genealogy of the House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies, there are also many marriages among first cousins.
 
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