Habsburg and HRE Titles

[andrew]

Originally Posted by blacktulip_ro

...I am from Romania, the translator/interpret for an American friend, who is the grandson, descendant, of the Baron Neumann, Austrian who lived in the 1850s.

Hi Anca,

I live in Arad and as you know the Neumann barons lived here.
As far as I know the grandson of Baron Francisc Neumann(Baron Feri-as he was known) regained some properties here in Arad but he sold them and was not really interested in his connections to Arad.
Austria, Hungary and Romania are now all republics so they cannot give or give back noble titles. The Neumann's title is hereditary so technically your friend is a baron and he is entitled to use his title.
Best wishes,

Andrew

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Lalla Meriem

Speaking of titles, I just noticed that in the information that is released by the Luxembourg government about the Grand Ducal Family that CC is listed as Archduke of Austria and Prince of Bar. I am unfamiliar with the Bar title and I don't believe it is a traditional part of the titles of an Archduke.

Can someone clarify this information for me?

It is a very old story, that of the county (later duchy) of Bar and the county (now Grand duchy) of Luxembourg.

It goes back to the death of Charlemagne when his son Lothar inherited the middle of Charlemange's realm, while his brothers took over France and Germany. That was around 800. Bar and Luxembourg were part of Lothar's realm.

In 915 Wigeric of Ardennes became the Count Palatine of Lotharingia, which included Luxembourg and Bar. On his death Luxembourg was given to his son Siegfried as a county while his eldest son Frederick inherited the county of bar and the duchy of Upper Lorraine.

Over the centuries the reigning families of Bar, Luxembourg and Lorraine intermarried repeatedly and often the inheritance moved via the female line.

In 1240 Henry V. of Luxembourg married Marguerite de Bar. From this marriage two lines of the House of Luxembourg emerged:

- the main line which ended with Elisabeth of Luxembourg, niece of emperor Siegismund and granddaughter of emperor Charles IV. of the Holy Roman Empire. She had been given Luxembourg as a forfeit from her uncle, who couldn't pay her to get it back. She was later disposed by duke Philip of Burgundy. Sigismund's daughter Elisabeth of Bohemia married into the Habsburg family and brought a claim to Luxembourg with her. When the dukes of Burgundy died out in the male line, Luxembourg came with Maria of Burgundy to her Habsburg-husband, thus the claims merged.

- the younger branch of the Luxembourgs which held several titles in France, most notably the count of Ligny-en-Barrois, a part of the county of Bar. In 1435 Louis of Luxembourg married Jeanne de Bar, great-granddaughter of Robert I. of Bar in direct male line (through Robert's eldest son Henri and Henri's eldest son Robert). Thus, when the male-line of Bar died out in 1431, Louis claimed Bar for his wife.

But alas, he hadn't counted on his wife's cousin Yolanthe of Aragon, queen consort of Naples, the daughter of Yolanthe of Bar, queen of Aragon. Yolanthe was quite a political force in medieval France, as she was married to the head of the House of Anjou which controlled the western part of mediterranean Europe. Her second son Rene had married the heiress of Lorraine and Yolanthe managed to have him announced official heir of her uncle Louis of Bar.

For 3 years Louis of Luxembourg and René of Anjou-Lorraine struggled, but when René captured Louis' brother Jean the struggle ended with the contract of 1434 which handed over Bar to Lorraine.

Franz Stephan of Lorraine was a direct line descendant René de Anjou-Lorraine and had inherited the titles of duc de Lorraine et Bar, which he brought into the Habsburg-Lorraine pool of titles. Thus, any male-line descendant of Franz Stephan is a Prince de Lorraine et de Bar.

Luxembourg belonged to Habsburg till the French revolution and stayed French till Napoleon's French empire collapsed. At the Congress of Vienna the emperor of Austria ceased his rights of Luxembourg, which was created a Grand Duchy as well as his rights to the Austrian Netherlands to the new king of The Netherlands. The current Grand Duke is a male-line descendant of this king.

Thus I guess for historical reasons the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg still recognizes the title of the duke of Bar with his family being prince/princesse de Bar. I wonder why they don't add the Lorraine title as well, though.

[maria-olivia]

Prince Lorenz is using his 3 titles for the different places he is working for :
Archduke of Habsbourg-Este
Prince of Belgium
Duke of Bar

[claypoint2]

Une petite correction, Maria-Olivia: Is the proper title Archduke of Habsbourg-Este, or Archduke of Austria-Este? I believe that it is the latter, as Habsbourg is the family name but the title is Archduke/duchess of Austria.

[MAfan]

That's correct; the proper title is Archduke of Austria-Este.

[monica17]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

Franz Stephan of Lorraine was a direct line descendant René de Anjou-Lorraine and had inherited the titles of duc de Lorraine et Bar, which he brought into the Habsburg-Lorraine pool of titles. Thus, any male-line descendant of Franz Stephan is a Prince de Lorraine et de Bar.

Luxembourg belonged to Habsburg till the French revolution and stayed French till Napoleon's French empire collapsed. At the Congress of Vienna the emperor of Austria ceased his rights of Luxembourg, which was created a Grand Duchy as well as his rights to the Austrian Netherlands to the new king of The Netherlands. The current Grand Duke is a male-line descendant of this king.

Thus I guess for historical reasons the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg still recognizes the title of the duke of Bar with his family being prince/princesse de Bar. I wonder why they don't add the Lorraine title as well, though.

Thank you, Kataryn! I'm very interested in the Habsburgs.....

Can you please specify which king the current Grand Duke is descended from in the male line?

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by monica17

Thank you, Kataryn! I'm very interested in the Habsburgs.....

Can you please specify which king the current Grand Duke is descended from in the male line?

It's king William I. of the Netherlands, prince of Oranje who was a member of Wellington's commanding staff during the fights against Napoleon and was created king of the Netherlands in 1815.

[monica17]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

It's king William I. of the Netherlands, prince of Oranje who was a member of Wellington's commanding staff during the fights against Napoleon and was created king of the Netherlands in 1815.

Thank you, Kataryn!

I got confused a bit earlier... I thought you said the King of the Netherlands was descended from Franz Stephan! I racked my brains to think which child of FS the King of the Netherlands was descended from....
(I know Catholic and Protestant royals back then seldom married unless one converted, and as far as I know, the Habsburgs certainly never changed their religion for whatever purposes in the course of their history).

But of course you meant that the current Grand Duke of Luxembourg uses the titles of the Duchy of Bar because Luxembourg was part of the Habsburg/Habsburg-Lorraine lands .

[Grandduchess24]

Weren't most holy roman emperors of Austria decended from empress Maria Theresa who had inherited the title from her father but was used by her husband Francis I of Lorraine

[MAfan]

Most of the Holy Roman Emperors were ancestors of Maria Theresia; only three Holy Roman Emperors were descendants from her and Emperor Franz I, namely their sons Josef II (from 1765 to 1790) and Leopold II (from 1790 to 1972) and their grandson Franz II (from 1792 to 1806).

The Holy Roman Emperor had to be a man, so Maria Theresia couldn't be elected Empress (while at her father's death she inherited all his other titles and lands); so when Emperor Karl VI died the Electors elected as Holy Roman Emperor Karl VII (of Bavaria) and at Karl VII's death in 1745 they elected Maria Theresia's husband Franz.
Thus she was Empress only because she was the wife of the Holy Roman Emperor (but instead she was Archduchess of Austria, Queen of Hungary and Bohemia, etc etc in her own right).

[Araldus]

Dear all,

I've read on the New York Times", 1919 (pls see attached) that Archduke Peter Ferdinand Habsburg of Austria, Grand Duke of Tuscany, gave up (or relinquished) his dynastic titles. Is it true?

Wikipedia (and some other books) don't remember this fact ....
Archduke Peter Ferdinand of Austria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Peter Ferdinand von Österreich-Toskana

but on
Großherzogtum Toskana
I read:
Großherzöge von Toskana (Habsburg-Lothringen)
Annexion durch das Königreich Sardinien-Piemont – der formelle Titel des Großherzogs von Toskana ging an die Kaiser von Österreich, die ihn bis 1918 in ihrem Titel führten.
... it therefore seems that the wikipedia in german language confirms the passage of title of Grand Duke of Tuscany to the Emperor of Austria.


Someone can explain to me, or give me a titles of books, that explain these renunciations?

Thank for all infos
Attached Files

[MAfan]

As far as I know, after the Habsburg Law of 1919 all the members of the former Imperial Family, in order to be allowed to enter in Austria or to live in Austria and to retain their asstes owned in Austria, were required to renounce all their dynastic claims and to accepte the status as private citizens.
Many Archdukes didn't accept to comply with these provisions and were forced to exile; most notably Emperor Karl I and his immediate family; his son Archduke Otto was allowed to return in Austria in the 1960s only after he signed an official declaration renouncing all his dynastic claims.
Other Archdukes instead did; among them were Archduke Franz Salvator and Archduchess Marie Valerie and their children. Apparently also Grand Duchess Alicia of Tuscany, Archduke Peter Ferdinand and his family did. In fact, later they all continued to live in Austria and retained their personal properties there (included many castles, in the case of Franz Salvator and Marie Valerie).
So I think that the articled you attached refers to the renounciation to the Austrian throne in accordance with the 1919 Habsburg Law and that such renounciation doesn't have anything to do with the defunct Grand Duchy of Tuscany.

[Araldus]

but Wikipedia reports that Peter Ferdinand had already before renounced his dynastic, and particular, title as Grand Duke titular of Tuscany in 1918.

on german Wikipedia under "Großherzogtum Toskana"
I read:
"Großherzöge von Toskana (Habsburg-Lothringen)
Annexion durch das Königreich Sardinien-Piemont – der formelle Titel des Großherzogs von Toskana ging an die Kaiser von Österreich, die ihn bis 1918 in ihrem Titel führten" = Grand Dukes of Tuscany (Habsburg-Lorraine)
Annexation by the Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia - the formal title of Grand Duke of Tuscany went to the Emperor of Austria, which led him to 1918 in their title.

The title of Grand Duke was relinquished in the hands of the Emperor of Austria (somebody told me..... this was made in order to have a pension of general or colonel in the Austrian army by Emperor....).
It is true? Could someone tell me some books, or other sources, about these renounces?

[Kit]

MAfan is right! The article is about Peter Ferdinand's renounciation of his dynastic claims to the Austrian-Hungarian throne in order to be allowed to remain in Austria as private citizen after the abolishment of the monarchy in 1918.

I think you are confusing here some things. Peter Ferdinand was a legitimate male member of the Imperial House of Habsburg. Thus he was an AD and had therefore as all other male members a claim to the Austrian - Hungarian throne since his birth.
As far as the Grand Duchy of Toskana is concerned: Tuscany was a so - called secondogeniture of the Habsburgs. Meaning: it was given to a cadet branch of the Habsburgs and not the main branch. The last GD of Tuscany was Peter Ferdinand's father Ferdinand IV. . He was GD for exactly ONE YEAR. He became GD after his father (and therefore Peter Ferdinand's grandfather) Leopold II: officially renounced. You can read about this in the German Wikipedia.
But after the annexion the title (and remember just the title !) went to Emperor Franz Joseph I. Or to be more specific FJ. refused to give up the claim of his house to Tuscany and therefore used the title until his death. Look up "Großer Titel" of FJ in Wikipedia. There you can read all his titles. So did his successor Emperor Karl I. It was a bit like the English kings who called themselves even Kings of France after they lost the 100 year - war. But in fact FJ. and Karl and the whole House of Habsburg did no longer rule over Tuscany.

The article you posted doesn't mention if Peter Ferdinand ever had to offically renounce his hypothetical claim to the throne of Tuscany and I doubt he ever did. If you are looking for sources you probably have to ask governmental departments in Italy. The Republic of Austria just has renounciations of all dynastic claims to the Imperial Throne of Austria and the private assets linked with it.

[MAfan]

I also wonder, if it were a renounciation to the throne of Tuscany, why had Grand Duchess Alicia to renounce to it? After all she didn't have any claim to it.
And also, if it were a renounciation to the Tuscan throne the claims as Titular Grand Duke would pass to Peter Ferdinand's son Gottfried and not to the Emperor.
Last bu not least, in 1918 the claimant to the Tuscan throne and title of Grand Duke wasn't Peter Ferdinand but his older brother Joseph Ferdinand. How could Peter Ferdinand renounce to something he didn't have yet and pass it to the Emperor?

[Araldus]

In fact, ....as usually in the House of Habsburg..., not everything is clear!

I think that H.I.R.H. Alicia renounce to the throne of Tuscany because she was the wife, or the widow, of the Grand Duke of Tuscany (she was born royal princess of the house of Bourbon-Parma as H.R.H. Princess of Bourbon Parma) .

I have always heard that the branch of the Grand Dukes of Tuscany gave up this title in the hands of the Emperor of Austria around 1918 in order to have a salary as colonel of the Imperial Army.
This facts occurred in 1918 and the Emperor is still on the imperial Throne ( for short time but enough for accept this renunciation from his cousin).
I suppose that this future "ex" (and last of this cadet line) Gran Duke of Tuscany, as cadet branch of the large Imperial House, before the renounce of this particular title in the 1918 year, wasn't very rich: for him take an entry in the payroll of Imperial House was a good idea! .... or it was done simple for political reasons (as sample the diplomatic relations with the Kingdom of Italy)
It 's true ?

Then, I think, that the former Grand Duke of Tuscany , after having renounced for himself and his descendants the title of Grand Duke of Tuscany in the hands of the Emperor (1918 yr) also give up, for him and all his descendants, the titles of Archdukes of Austria and Princes of Hungary , and all other royal titles, upon the request of the Republic of Austria and in order to maintain his private fortune and estate in the new austrian republican state (1919 yr).... so I understand by reading the text of Article dates and the New York Times . It 's true ? D you agree with this interpretation about these facts?

I've read, in some sources, that Karl, the son of Otto, still today use the title of Grand Duke of Tuscany as imperial heir! It is correct?

[MAfan]

I'm sorry, but...I've carefully re-read the article you attached.
It clearly says that the Archdukes have "renounced all their royal prerogatives under the act of April 3 last, and have declared themselves faithful citizens of the republic". It also is written that the article was published on 29 October 1919.
It is clear that it refers to the renounciation under the terms of the 1919 Habsburg law, as I've written in my first reply.

[Araldus]

ok, so I only have to figure out if what Wikipedia says is true, that is to say:
he has renounced to the title (or to the inheritance of the tilte) of Grand Duke of Tuscany in favor of the Emperor in 1918 before his renounce to all his other dynastic titles in the 1919 year, along with some others Archdukes of the Imperial House? Thank you

[MarleneKoenig]

This question was also answered on Nobiliana. Same exact post.

[CyrilVladisla]

What is the correct last name of the Archduke Karl: Habsburg-Lorraine or Habsburg-Lothringen? Also, where did Lothringen become a part of the Habsburg name? Please explain the history.

If someday Hungary should become a monarchy, would the Habsburg Archdukes still have the title of Archduke of Austria and Royal Prince of Hungary?