Habsburg and HRE Titles


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Here is a note from the French Wikipedia concerning the title of Duke/Duchess of Bar (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duch%C3%A9_de_Bar):

"La dernière impératrice d'Autriche, Zita de Bourbon-Parme, porta durant son long exil (1918-1989) le titre de 'duchesse de Bar' et c'est avec ce titre, inscrit sur son passeport qu'elle put regagner l'Autriche pour une courte visite en 1982.
Son fils l'archiduc Otto de Habsbourg-Lorraine a également repris ce titre, son père lui ayant conseillé sur son lit de mort :'N'oubliez jamais la Lorraine.'"


English translation: "During her long exile (1918-1989), the last empress of Austria, Zita of Bourbon-Parma, carried the title 'Duchess of Bar,' and it was with this title inscribed in her passport that she was able to re-enter Austria for a short visit in 1982. Her son Archduke Otto of Austria also used this title, his father having counseled him on his deathbed: 'Never forget the Lorraine.'"
 
his father having counseled him on his deathbed: 'Never forget the Lorraine.'"

Perhaps also why they retain Lorraine as part of their surname. I hardly ever find a Habsburg listing him or herself as just de or von Habsburg I usually see Habsbourg-Lorraine or Habsburg-Lothringen. Some branches don't use Lorraine but all those descendants of Karl and Zita seem to prefer it.

The Emperor must have said a lot on his death bed to various members of his family. I've saw no less than 10 different quotes for his final words.
 
As far as I know, he wanted Otto on his deathbed, as well as Zita; their other children were too young, and no more members then them were in Madeira when the Emperor died; maybe some servant, but...not so many family members, I guess.
 
At the risk of reopening a long dormant thread, I have a few questions regarding the titles of the Habsburgs.

  • I think I know the answer to this already: All children of a Habsburg Emperor are ranked as ‘archdukes and archduchesses?” Previously I had thought that ‘Archduke of Austria’ went to the eldest son much like Prince of Wales and Prince of Asturias are for England and Spain.
  • Does archduke rank as equal to a kingship title? So, did ever a Habsburg Archduke of Austria rank as ‘equal’ to that of a kingship before the declaration of the Austrian Empire in 1804?
  • This is purely speculative, but would Austria restore their monarchy but as an Archduchy? Would the current pretender take that as his current title without the 'imperial dignities'? Or at least not press them?
 
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I will defer to those more knowledgeable than I. My understanding, however, is that all children of the Emperor were archdukes/duchesses. I do not think there was a title for the heir analogous to Prince of Wales.

I do not think archduke equals a king in rank. The title of archduke is limited to the Habsburgs and was definitely inferior to a reigning sovereign.

Only part of modern day Austria was an archduchy. The Archduchy of Austria consisted of today's Upper and Lower Austria, more or less. The other areas were duchies and crownlands. As much as I would love to see a restoration in Austria, to speculate on titles and dignities for a monarch in present day Austria is just too outlandish. I hope that that will change.
 
Harold is right; all the members of the Imperial Family born from an equal marriage and their "equal" wifes are/were Archduke/Archduchess and Prince(ss) Imperial of Austria, with the style of Imperial Highness (Imperial and Royal since they also bear/bore the titles of Royal Princes of Hungary and Bohemia).
 
I do not think there was a title for the heir analogous to Prince of Wales.

There was a title for Heir apparent...Rudolf was also Crown Prince as well as the archduke...
 
kind request - info about Baron title

Hello all,

I am happy to find there is such a website and forum, especially in English because I need your help.

I am from Romania, the translator/interpret for an American friend, who is the grandson, descendant, of the Baron Neumann, Austrian who lived in the 1850s.
I know this title is inherited usually, but because the Royal House of Austria did not exist in the 20th century, his father was not made Baron, and he lost his title.
As I know from my research, this title is inherited, or if there is such a gap between 2 generations I'm not sure how and if the grandson could be awarded this title again.
I think it should be awarded by a living member of the Royal/Duke/Nobility that still exists today, who has to be from the same country his grandfather was, and in a ceremony.
He has all the papers proving his nobility and origins, but he would like to have this title as well because he considers it is a high honor to be the descendant of such nobility.

My question for you is...how can enter in contact with one or several members of the Austrian Nobility, still alive today, and I saw there are plenty...I don't know German or Austrian language, and I would really like to help him regain his title, if possible of course.

So if you can give me any hints, email address of royal secretary houses or anything that could be useful to enter in contact with them I would highly appreciate!

Thank you!
Anca
 
I do not think archduke equals a king in rank. The title of archduke is limited to the Habsburgs and was definitely inferior to a reigning sovereign.

Only part of modern day Austria was an archduchy. The Archduchy of Austria consisted of today's Upper and Lower Austria, more or less. The other areas were duchies and crownlands. As much as I would love to see a restoration in Austria, to speculate on titles and dignities for a monarch in present day Austria is just too outlandish. I hope that that will change.

Here you find more information about the development of the "Archducal House" of Habsburg/Austria:

The World of the Habsburgs - Almost a crown: The Austrian archducal coronet


From the text:
The prefix ‘arch-’ always signifies pre-eminent status: just as an archbishop ranks above a bishop, the archduke came before the normal dukes in the realm. The title stems from the forged Privilegium Maius commissioned by Duke Rudolf IV of Habsburg in 1359, and is regarded as a reaction to the Golden Bull of Emperor Charles IV, which laid down the modalities of the election and coronation of the Holy Roman and German kings – and denied the Habsburgs an electoral vote. The young and ambitious Rudolf was prepared to forge documents in order to consolidate his dynasty’s status and created the title of Archduke of Austria. This underscored the special status of the Habsburgs as being directly after the electors, but before the other imperial princes.

More about how the forgery was detected, dealt with and how it happened that the Archducal House became legitimate... follow the link.
 
...I am from Romania, the translator/interpret for an American friend, who is the grandson, descendant, of the Baron Neumann, Austrian who lived in the 1850s.
Hi Anca,

I live in Arad and as you know the Neumann barons lived here.
As far as I know the grandson of Baron Francisc Neumann(Baron Feri-as he was known) regained some properties here in Arad but he sold them and was not really interested in his connections to Arad.
Austria, Hungary and Romania are now all republics so they cannot give or give back noble titles. The Neumann's title is hereditary so technically your friend is a baron and he is entitled to use his title.
Best wishes,

Andrew
 
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Speaking of titles, I just noticed that in the information that is released by the Luxembourg government about the Grand Ducal Family that CC is listed as Archduke of Austria and Prince of Bar. I am unfamiliar with the Bar title and I don't believe it is a traditional part of the titles of an Archduke.

Can someone clarify this information for me?

It is a very old story, that of the county (later duchy) of Bar and the county (now Grand duchy) of Luxembourg.

It goes back to the death of Charlemagne when his son Lothar inherited the middle of Charlemange's realm, while his brothers took over France and Germany. That was around 800. Bar and Luxembourg were part of Lothar's realm.

In 915 Wigeric of Ardennes became the Count Palatine of Lotharingia, which included Luxembourg and Bar. On his death Luxembourg was given to his son Siegfried as a county while his eldest son Frederick inherited the county of bar and the duchy of Upper Lorraine.

Over the centuries the reigning families of Bar, Luxembourg and Lorraine intermarried repeatedly and often the inheritance moved via the female line.

In 1240 Henry V. of Luxembourg married Marguerite de Bar. From this marriage two lines of the House of Luxembourg emerged:

- the main line which ended with Elisabeth of Luxembourg, niece of emperor Siegismund and granddaughter of emperor Charles IV. of the Holy Roman Empire. She had been given Luxembourg as a forfeit from her uncle, who couldn't pay her to get it back. She was later disposed by duke Philip of Burgundy. Sigismund's daughter Elisabeth of Bohemia married into the Habsburg family and brought a claim to Luxembourg with her. When the dukes of Burgundy died out in the male line, Luxembourg came with Maria of Burgundy to her Habsburg-husband, thus the claims merged.

- the younger branch of the Luxembourgs which held several titles in France, most notably the count of Ligny-en-Barrois, a part of the county of Bar. In 1435 Louis of Luxembourg married Jeanne de Bar, great-granddaughter of Robert I. of Bar in direct male line (through Robert's eldest son Henri and Henri's eldest son Robert). Thus, when the male-line of Bar died out in 1431, Louis claimed Bar for his wife.

But alas, he hadn't counted on his wife's cousin Yolanthe of Aragon, queen consort of Naples, the daughter of Yolanthe of Bar, queen of Aragon. Yolanthe was quite a political force in medieval France, as she was married to the head of the House of Anjou which controlled the western part of mediterranean Europe. Her second son Rene had married the heiress of Lorraine and Yolanthe managed to have him announced official heir of her uncle Louis of Bar.

For 3 years Louis of Luxembourg and René of Anjou-Lorraine struggled, but when René captured Louis' brother Jean the struggle ended with the contract of 1434 which handed over Bar to Lorraine.

Franz Stephan of Lorraine was a direct line descendant René de Anjou-Lorraine and had inherited the titles of duc de Lorraine et Bar, which he brought into the Habsburg-Lorraine pool of titles. Thus, any male-line descendant of Franz Stephan is a Prince de Lorraine et de Bar.

Luxembourg belonged to Habsburg till the French revolution and stayed French till Napoleon's French empire collapsed. At the Congress of Vienna the emperor of Austria ceased his rights of Luxembourg, which was created a Grand Duchy as well as his rights to the Austrian Netherlands to the new king of The Netherlands. The current Grand Duke is a male-line descendant of this king.

Thus I guess for historical reasons the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg still recognizes the title of the duke of Bar with his family being prince/princesse de Bar. I wonder why they don't add the Lorraine title as well, though.
 
Prince Lorenz is using his 3 titles for the different places he is working for :
Archduke of Habsbourg-Este
Prince of Belgium
Duke of Bar
 
Une petite correction, Maria-Olivia: Is the proper title Archduke of Habsbourg-Este, or Archduke of Austria-Este? I believe that it is the latter, as Habsbourg is the family name but the title is Archduke/duchess of Austria.
 
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That's correct; the proper title is Archduke of Austria-Este.
 
Franz Stephan of Lorraine was a direct line descendant René de Anjou-Lorraine and had inherited the titles of duc de Lorraine et Bar, which he brought into the Habsburg-Lorraine pool of titles. Thus, any male-line descendant of Franz Stephan is a Prince de Lorraine et de Bar.

Luxembourg belonged to Habsburg till the French revolution and stayed French till Napoleon's French empire collapsed. At the Congress of Vienna the emperor of Austria ceased his rights of Luxembourg, which was created a Grand Duchy as well as his rights to the Austrian Netherlands to the new king of The Netherlands. The current Grand Duke is a male-line descendant of this king.

Thus I guess for historical reasons the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg still recognizes the title of the duke of Bar with his family being prince/princesse de Bar. I wonder why they don't add the Lorraine title as well, though.

Thank you, Kataryn! I'm very interested in the Habsburgs.....

Can you please specify which king the current Grand Duke is descended from in the male line?
 
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Thank you, Kataryn! I'm very interested in the Habsburgs.....

Can you please specify which king the current Grand Duke is descended from in the male line?


It's king William I. of the Netherlands, prince of Oranje who was a member of Wellington's commanding staff during the fights against Napoleon and was created king of the Netherlands in 1815.
 
It's king William I. of the Netherlands, prince of Oranje who was a member of Wellington's commanding staff during the fights against Napoleon and was created king of the Netherlands in 1815.

Thank you, Kataryn!

I got confused a bit earlier... I thought you said the King of the Netherlands was descended from Franz Stephan! I racked my brains to think which child of FS the King of the Netherlands was descended from....
(I know Catholic and Protestant royals back then seldom married unless one converted, and as far as I know, the Habsburgs certainly never changed their religion for whatever purposes in the course of their history).

But of course you meant that the current Grand Duke of Luxembourg uses the titles of the Duchy of Bar because Luxembourg was part of the Habsburg/Habsburg-Lorraine lands :).
 
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Weren't most holy roman emperors of Austria decended from empress Maria Theresa who had inherited the title from her father but was used by her husband Francis I of Lorraine
 
Most of the Holy Roman Emperors were ancestors of Maria Theresia; only three Holy Roman Emperors were descendants from her and Emperor Franz I, namely their sons Josef II (from 1765 to 1790) and Leopold II (from 1790 to 1972) and their grandson Franz II (from 1792 to 1806).

The Holy Roman Emperor had to be a man, so Maria Theresia couldn't be elected Empress (while at her father's death she inherited all his other titles and lands); so when Emperor Karl VI died the Electors elected as Holy Roman Emperor Karl VII (of Bavaria) and at Karl VII's death in 1745 they elected Maria Theresia's husband Franz.
Thus she was Empress only because she was the wife of the Holy Roman Emperor (but instead she was Archduchess of Austria, Queen of Hungary and Bohemia, etc etc in her own right).
 
Archduke Peter Ferdinand of Austria, gave up of all titles and dinastic rights?

Dear all,

I've read on the New York Times", 1919 (pls see attached) that Archduke Peter Ferdinand Habsburg of Austria, Grand Duke of Tuscany, gave up (or relinquished) his dynastic titles. Is it true?

Wikipedia (and some other books) don't remember this fact ....
Archduke Peter Ferdinand of Austria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Peter Ferdinand von Österreich-Toskana

but on
Großherzogtum Toskana
I read:
Großherzöge von Toskana (Habsburg-Lothringen)
Annexion durch das Königreich Sardinien-Piemont – der formelle Titel des Großherzogs von Toskana ging an die Kaiser von Österreich, die ihn bis 1918 in ihrem Titel führten.
... it therefore seems that the wikipedia in german language confirms the passage of title of Grand Duke of Tuscany to the Emperor of Austria.
:eek:

Someone can explain to me, or give me a titles of books, that explain these renunciations? :ermm:

Thank for all infos
Attached Files
 

Attachments

  • rinuncia toscana Pietro Ferdinando.pdf
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As far as I know, after the Habsburg Law of 1919 all the members of the former Imperial Family, in order to be allowed to enter in Austria or to live in Austria and to retain their asstes owned in Austria, were required to renounce all their dynastic claims and to accepte the status as private citizens.
Many Archdukes didn't accept to comply with these provisions and were forced to exile; most notably Emperor Karl I and his immediate family; his son Archduke Otto was allowed to return in Austria in the 1960s only after he signed an official declaration renouncing all his dynastic claims.
Other Archdukes instead did; among them were Archduke Franz Salvator and Archduchess Marie Valerie and their children. Apparently also Grand Duchess Alicia of Tuscany, Archduke Peter Ferdinand and his family did. In fact, later they all continued to live in Austria and retained their personal properties there (included many castles, in the case of Franz Salvator and Marie Valerie).
So I think that the articled you attached refers to the renounciation to the Austrian throne in accordance with the 1919 Habsburg Law and that such renounciation doesn't have anything to do with the defunct Grand Duchy of Tuscany.
 
but Wikipedia reports that Peter Ferdinand had already before renounced his dynastic, and particular, title as Grand Duke titular of Tuscany in 1918.

on german Wikipedia under "Großherzogtum Toskana"
I read:
"Großherzöge von Toskana (Habsburg-Lothringen)
Annexion durch das Königreich Sardinien-Piemont – der formelle Titel des Großherzogs von Toskana ging an die Kaiser von Österreich, die ihn bis 1918 in ihrem Titel führten" = Grand Dukes of Tuscany (Habsburg-Lorraine)
Annexation by the Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia - the formal title of Grand Duke of Tuscany went to the Emperor of Austria, which led him to 1918 in their title
.

The title of Grand Duke was relinquished in the hands of the Emperor of Austria (somebody told me..... this was made in order to have a pension of general or colonel in the Austrian army by Emperor....).
It is true? Could someone tell me some books, or other sources, about these renounces?
 
MAfan is right! The article is about Peter Ferdinand's renounciation of his dynastic claims to the Austrian-Hungarian throne in order to be allowed to remain in Austria as private citizen after the abolishment of the monarchy in 1918.

I think you are confusing here some things. Peter Ferdinand was a legitimate male member of the Imperial House of Habsburg. Thus he was an AD and had therefore as all other male members a claim to the Austrian - Hungarian throne since his birth.
As far as the Grand Duchy of Toskana is concerned: Tuscany was a so - called secondogeniture of the Habsburgs. Meaning: it was given to a cadet branch of the Habsburgs and not the main branch. The last GD of Tuscany was Peter Ferdinand's father Ferdinand IV. . He was GD for exactly ONE YEAR. He became GD after his father (and therefore Peter Ferdinand's grandfather) Leopold II: officially renounced. You can read about this in the German Wikipedia.
But after the annexion the title (and remember just the title !) went to Emperor Franz Joseph I. Or to be more specific FJ. refused to give up the claim of his house to Tuscany and therefore used the title until his death. Look up "Großer Titel" of FJ in Wikipedia. There you can read all his titles. So did his successor Emperor Karl I. It was a bit like the English kings who called themselves even Kings of France after they lost the 100 year - war. But in fact FJ. and Karl and the whole House of Habsburg did no longer rule over Tuscany.

The article you posted doesn't mention if Peter Ferdinand ever had to offically renounce his hypothetical claim to the throne of Tuscany and I doubt he ever did. If you are looking for sources you probably have to ask governmental departments in Italy. The Republic of Austria just has renounciations of all dynastic claims to the Imperial Throne of Austria and the private assets linked with it.
 
I also wonder, if it were a renounciation to the throne of Tuscany, why had Grand Duchess Alicia to renounce to it? After all she didn't have any claim to it.
And also, if it were a renounciation to the Tuscan throne the claims as Titular Grand Duke would pass to Peter Ferdinand's son Gottfried and not to the Emperor.
Last bu not least, in 1918 the claimant to the Tuscan throne and title of Grand Duke wasn't Peter Ferdinand but his older brother Joseph Ferdinand. How could Peter Ferdinand renounce to something he didn't have yet and pass it to the Emperor?
 
In fact, ....as usually in the House of Habsburg..., not everything is clear!

I think that H.I.R.H. Alicia renounce to the throne of Tuscany because she was the wife, or the widow, of the Grand Duke of Tuscany (she was born royal princess of the house of Bourbon-Parma as H.R.H. Princess of Bourbon Parma) .

I have always heard that the branch of the Grand Dukes of Tuscany gave up this title in the hands of the Emperor of Austria around 1918 in order to have a salary as colonel of the Imperial Army.
This facts occurred in 1918 and the Emperor is still on the imperial Throne ( for short time but enough for accept this renunciation from his cousin).
I suppose that this future "ex" (and last of this cadet line) Gran Duke of Tuscany, as cadet branch of the large Imperial House, before the renounce of this particular title in the 1918 year, wasn't very rich: for him take an entry in the payroll of Imperial House was a good idea! .... or it was done simple for political reasons (as sample the diplomatic relations with the Kingdom of Italy)
It 's true ?

Then, I think, that the former Grand Duke of Tuscany , after having renounced for himself and his descendants the title of Grand Duke of Tuscany in the hands of the Emperor (1918 yr) also give up, for him and all his descendants, the titles of Archdukes of Austria and Princes of Hungary , and all other royal titles, upon the request of the Republic of Austria and in order to maintain his private fortune and estate in the new austrian republican state (1919 yr).... so I understand by reading the text of Article dates and the New York Times . It 's true ? D you agree with this interpretation about these facts?

I've read, in some sources, that Karl, the son of Otto, still today use the title of Grand Duke of Tuscany as imperial heir! It is correct?
 
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I'm sorry, but...I've carefully re-read the article you attached.
It clearly says that the Archdukes have "renounced all their royal prerogatives under the act of April 3 last, and have declared themselves faithful citizens of the republic". It also is written that the article was published on 29 October 1919.
It is clear that it refers to the renounciation under the terms of the 1919 Habsburg law, as I've written in my first reply.
 
ok, so I only have to figure out if what Wikipedia says is true, that is to say:
he has renounced to the title (or to the inheritance of the tilte) of Grand Duke of Tuscany in favor of the Emperor in 1918 before his renounce to all his other dynastic titles in the 1919 year, along with some others Archdukes of the Imperial House? Thank you
 
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This question was also answered on Nobiliana. Same exact post.
 
What is the correct last name of the Archduke Karl: Habsburg-Lorraine or Habsburg-Lothringen? Also, where did Lothringen become a part of the Habsburg name? Please explain the history.

If someday Hungary should become a monarchy, would the Habsburg Archdukes still have the title of Archduke of Austria and Royal Prince of Hungary?
 
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