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  #241  
Old 08-19-2021, 09:18 AM
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I'm wondering too if the granting of dukedoms upon marriage will be discontinued following the Noos scandal involving Inaki/Cristina former duchess de Palma de Mallorca.
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  #242  
Old 08-19-2021, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by AnaC View Post
Choosing the mother's surname first is not an exception, years ago the father's surname was the default and parents had to petition if they wanted the mother's surname first. Now parents must choose the surname order, there's no default. The law contemplates the option of a hyphenated surname but under conditions that I don't think would be met in this case.
Mbruno may have been referring to social custom, rather than law. Among children born within the first year following the amendment to the naming law, only 0.5% of parents chose for their children to bear the mother's surname first.


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Originally Posted by AnaC View Post
There's no comparison between Leonor's (hypothetical) children and Elena's and Cristina's, who are dynastically irrelevant.
When Elena's first child was born it was very possible that he would someday accede to the throne, given that Felipe was then still unmarried.
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  #243  
Old 08-19-2021, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
I'm wondering too if the granting of dukedoms upon marriage will be discontinued following the Noos scandal involving Inaki/Cristina former duchess de Palma de Mallorca.
That would be my expectation. The dukedom policy was invented for the marriages of Infantas Elena and Cristina. Previous Infantas/Infantes whose marriages were considered equal and whose spouses moved to Spain had their spouses created Infantes/Infantas of Spain, until King Juan Carlos put an end to that policy with his Royal Decree 1368/1987 which denied the status of Infanta/Infante to spouses.

As I wrote in another thread: My prediction is that unless the monarchy is considerably more secure by the time the Infanta Sofía marries, no title of nobility will be granted to the Infanta or her spouse, who will at most become an Excmo. Sr. Likewise, in contrast to Jaime de Marichalar and Iñaki Urdangarin, my guess is that a spouse of Infanta Sofía will not become even a part-time working royal. I think the King, in the present conditions, will minimize the risk of royal scandal by keeping the number of family members who are viewed as royals pared down.
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  #244  
Old 08-19-2021, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
That would be my expectation. The dukedom policy was invented for the marriages of Infantas Elena and Cristina. Previous Infantas/Infantes whose marriages were considered equal and whose spouses moved to Spain had their spouses created Infantes/Infantas of Spain, until King Juan Carlos put an end to that policy with his Royal Decree 1368/1987 which denied the status of Infanta/Infante to spouses.
The late Infanta Pilar was the 1st to receive a dukedom when she was made Duchess of Badajoz in 1967 and my guess is Juan Carlos followed his fathers example.
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  #245  
Old 08-19-2021, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
The late Infanta Pilar was the 1st to receive a dukedom when she was made Duchess of Badajoz in 1967 and my guess is Juan Carlos followed his fathers example.
I meant in relation to equal/dynastic marriages whose issue were included in the line of succession. In relation to unequal marriages, Infante Jaime was the first Infante/Infanta to receive a dukedom for his morganatic spouse to share. He married Emanuela de Dampierre in 1935 and she became Duchess of Segovia. However, Infante José Eugenio had received a countdom for his morganatic wife two years earlier, in 1933. The marriages of Infantas Pilar and Margarita were also considered unequal and their issue were excluded from the line of succession.
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  #246  
Old 08-19-2021, 10:49 AM
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The mothers surname fiorst was also done for the present duke of Alba and i beleive one of his brothers. And i agree the for Leonor's children the mother'f forenmae will come first except iof she marries another Bourbon but the it would twice Bourbon
That's correct. Both Cayetana's eldest son (the current duke of Alba) and her third son are Fitz-James Stuart y Martínez de Irujo, while the others are Martínez de Irujo y Fitz-James Stuart.

Given that her second son is treated as the heir of his maternal great-grandfather (duke of Híjar and all the titles (in practice) attached to it) to avoid the title from fully merging with the dukedom of Alba for future generations, it makes sense that for him the Fitz-James Stuart surname wasn't put first - unlike for brother #1 and #3 (probably considered the spare for the duke of Alba title if the current duke wouldn't have had any children).
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  #247  
Old 09-08-2021, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The situation the other European kingdoms is the same as in Spain: The legal title of the queen consort does not include the word Consort, but nonetheless there is a clear difference in constitutional function between a queen regnant and a queen consort.
One of my pet peeves with royal watching is the a-few-years-old tendency by some to style the wife of a king as queen consort.
Queen consort is a position not a title.
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  #248  
Old 09-08-2021, 01:11 PM
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One of my pet peeves with royal watching is the a-few-years-old tendency by some to style the wife of a king as queen consort.
Queen consort is a position not a title.
I don't mind queen consort but I my pet peeve is when a certain British paper refers to Letizia as the Spanish Monarch
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  #249  
Old 09-08-2021, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
One of my pet peeves with royal watching is the a-few-years-old tendency by some to style the wife of a king as queen consort.
Queen consort is a position not a title.
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
I don't mind queen consort but I my pet peeve is when a certain British paper refers to Letizia as the Spanish Monarch
It seems that in their minds, a queen or king who is not styled "Consort" is necessarily a monarch. There was also talk that if the late husband of Queen Margrethe II of Denmark had been styled King without "Consort" it would have made him a monarch. Apparently it is not always understood that European monarchies do not apply the style "Consort" to those who hold the position of queen consort/king consort.



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Originally Posted by AnaC View Post
As An Ard Ri explained the heir was his father and not don Carlos. In any case it doesn't matter if he was created an Infante or if he had been born an Infante (as the King's brother, for example), his wife wouldn't be an infanta unless the King created her an infanta. Besides the title of Queen Consort, the only title shared after marriage in the Spanish Royal Family is that of Pince or Princess of Asturias.
Precisely. The Royal Decree of 1987 includes that Infanta/Infante and HRH apply to children of the King/Queen and children of the Princess/Prince of Asturias, but the provision does not apply to their spouses.



Quote:
Article 3

1.

The King's sons and daughters not possessing the Dignity of Prince or Princess of the Asturias, as well as the children of the latter Prince or Princess, shall be Infantes or Infantas of Spain, respectively, and shall be addressed as Your Royal Highness. Their spouses, whilst they continue being so or stay a widower or widow, shall be entitled to the form of address and honours The King, as a gracious decision, may grant them, pursuant to the powers vested upon Him by paragraph f) of Article 62 of the Constitution.


2.

Likewise, The King may grant the dignity of Infante or Infanta and the form of address of Your Royal Highness to those persons he shall deem fit of such a grace given the exceptional circumstances that concur.


3.

Except as provided in the present Article and the preceding one hereof, and save as provided in Article 5 hereof for members of the Regency, no person whatsoever may:

a) Use the title of Prince or Princess of the Asturias or employ any other title whatsoever traditionally attached to the Successor to the Crown of Spain;

b) Use the title of Infante or Infanta of Spain.

c) Receive the forms of address and honours pertaining to the Dignities mentioned in paragraphs a) and b) above.
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  #250  
Old 09-08-2021, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
It seems that in their minds, a queen or king who is not styled "Consort" is necessarily a monarch. There was also talk that if the late husband of Queen Margrethe II of Denmark had been styled King without "Consort" it would have made him a monarch. Apparently it is not always understood that European monarchies do not apply the style "Consort" to those who hold the position of queen consort/king consort.
That is definitely the case. From what I've seen on social media it originated in two certain English speaking nations where: 1. Someone made an announcement that he now regrets about his future wife being styled as Princess Consort and 2. People, because of some very sloppy reporting, can't seem to fathom the notion that titles aren't personal but transferable and that there have been numerous queens before the current one and that there, G*d willing, will be many after.
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  #251  
Old 09-08-2021, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
That is definitely the case. From what I've seen on social media it originated in two certain English speaking nations where: 1. Someone made an announcement that he now regrets about his future wife being styled as Princess Consort and 2. People, because of some very sloppy reporting, can't seem to fathom the notion that titles aren't personal but transferable and that there have been numerous queens before the current one and that there, G*d willing, will be many after.



The RD 1368/1987 says that the "consort of the King of Spain" is styled Queen, but the Spanish constitution actually uses the term "Queen consort" explicitly while not assigning any specific title to the "consort of the Queen", thus making a distinction between the two types of queens.



Quote:
Artículo 58

La Reina consorte o el consorte de la Reina no podrán asumir funciones constitucionales, salvo lo dispuesto para la Regencia.
In fact, it is a matter of linguistics. "Queen" may refer to the Head of State, the wife or widow of the Head of State, or, in some countries, the wife of a Head of State upon abdication. The ambiguity is solved by adding a qualifier such as Queen consort, Queen dowager, Queen emerita, etc.


I don't see anything wrong with adding a determiner/qualifier when linguistically required.
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