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  #1101  
Old 04-06-2018, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
I suspect the tension between the two Queens at the Easter Mass was partly due to Cristina's expected presence at the anniversary Mass. Sofia won that battle and Letizia wasn't happy. Then throw in Sofia's own unhappiness at not being allowed to see her granddaughters as often as she'd like, while Letizia's own mother can. That must explain her frustration when Letizia stepped in to block the photograph.

The pot was already boiling before the disagreement over the photograph took place.
Why? Cristina showing up at the Anniversary mass is no surprise, it's her grandfather after all, a man Letizia has never met.
And where will people draw the line? What happens when JC and Sofia pass, will there be a controversy about Cristina attending the funerals? People should move on from this discussion, Cristina remains a member of this family, a fact that won't go away, no need to constantly quarrel about that.
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  #1102  
Old 04-06-2018, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
To me the Queen Emeritus of Spain, has proven repeatedly that she represents an antediluvian Spain, more in tune with the Francoist era, than the Spain we have watched develop in the modern era. Her Homophobia, her outbursts against Abortion, and her CLOSE links with Opus Dei clearly represent the PAST.. She does have buckets of 'Blue blood', but also 'cold blood', and she should {IMO}now retire ENTIRELY..
If Letizia is really a "progressive" then she should advocate the end of the monarchy. It is as simple as that.

Doña Sofía has no "cold blood". In her 40 years as Queen of Spain she has shown a heart, commitment, empathy and an immense sense of duty.

Note that in Belgium the King refused to sign the Abortion Act. Note that in Luxembourg the Grand-Duke refused to sign the Euthanasia Act. In Spain Doña Sofía ventilated carefully worded opinions and yes, you know: she can do that because she is a citzen of Spain. She is not the head of state. She has no role in Government. She has a total different position than the named monarchs on the throne.
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  #1103  
Old 04-06-2018, 09:41 AM
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Franco's Spain was a patriarchal and conservative society... and the generational change is not over yet, but today's society is very different.

There are Spanish regions, especially in the north, where traditionally matriarchy has been strong. Spaniards have the surname of the father and the mother, and now they can be placed in the order you want.

Last Women's Day, Spain celebrated the largest gatherings in support of women in Europe. Universities have many more women than men.

Spaniards are mostly social Catholics, by tradition, by cultural customs ... but fewer and fewer are habitual practitioners.

So the topics are not real, or at least do not correspond to the current reality.

Even historically the Spanish monarchy did not leave the woman aside ...

The laws of the Crown of Castile allowed women to reign and so Isabel the Catholic reigned and then her daughter Juana reigned.

The Salic Law that forbade reigning women was introduced by the Bourbon dynasty, of French origin.

Later the law was changed so that Isabel II reigned, and her husband had the title of King.

The current Spanish Constitution says that the husband of the queen will be prince consort ... and that is because they copied from the other European monarchies, instead of following the Spanish tradition.
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  #1104  
Old 04-06-2018, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by WillVictoria View Post
One theory I've seen floated around other places is that prior to the photo-op the infantas were shaking hands with well wishers outside, and that Sofia Sr. made them to leave abruptly so the photo could be taken. That would explain why Letizia passed in front of them, in order to shake hands with those who were "jilted" (for lack of a better term) by the infantas in favor of the photo-op

In that case, it might be that Sofia Sr. and Letizia had very different ideas as to what was the best use of the girls' time. While Sofia wanted them to take pictures, Letizia possibly thought it should have waited until the girls finished shaking hands. While it doesn't excuse these women's behavior, I think both women believed their focus (whether it be photos or shaking hands) was best for the girls/appearance.
I agree, the "girls" were shaking hands and talking to people on the side-line.
What I see is that Sophia notices the photographer and grabs out for the kids. I think she used the kids to get a good picture. Why doesn't she act like the "past" queen and not the current?
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  #1105  
Old 04-06-2018, 09:59 AM
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Duc, Queen Sofía fulfilled her institutional role as Queen, as someone who was educated from the cradle for it ... but outside of her official life, she has had little contact with Spanish society.

For years the legend spread that she lived in London, because people only saw her in official acts. In Madrid she lives very close inside Zarzuela, only in Mallorca she does a little more social life.

You can find many comments from people who find Juan Carlos in a restaurant, or Felipe and Letizia in the movies, or Letizia buying... but it's very strange to find news like that about Sofia.
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  #1106  
Old 04-06-2018, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by alvinking View Post
I'm a new member and i have been reading this thread for a while now and there are a couple of things that seems missing

First, one must understand that Spain like France Portugal Italy is latin country with its codes. It is what it is and it is a conservative patriarchal country where the respect of the elder is paramount. Those who support the monarchy as in fact the most conservative and the ones most likely to be offended by what has happened. By acting in public the way Letizia did, reflects negatively on the King who comes across like a wimp, and this is unacceptable in this society. The people who would be a bit modernist and be on the side of Letizia are generally republicans who would want to get rid of the monarchy. In effect, she is alienating the people who would support her status as Queen.

Whether she like it or not Doña Leonor is the Princess of the Asturias and she belongs to Spain. If she wants privacy, she'd better ask her husband and daughters to abdicate and they will have their privacy. Doña Elena and Don Felipe Froilan are there to pick up the responsibility if needed. You can have your cookie and eat it too.

Doña Sofia deserves respect. Letizia is queen not only because Doña Sofia stood by JC regardless of what she was going through to save the crown, but aslo because she was one of the few who supported Felipe when he decided to marry her

Those commoners who marry into royal families lack that sense of duty that is instilled into those who are born into it. They don't want to bite the bullets, they want to change the institution from within, if things don't go their way they want to divorce etc (cf The Princess of Wales). Why have a monarchy if the institution is devoided of everything that is its essence. If they want to be normal, good but then, no need for the monarchy and welcome to the republic.
I agree with everything you have said esp the last paragraph. I have had this problem with the younger royals in the British monarchy.
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  #1107  
Old 04-06-2018, 10:05 AM
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Lula. Thank you for your personal Spanish viewpoint. I always enjoy a citizen's interpretation of events of the subject country. You are right there and it can affect your personal life at some point. Not being Spanish, these event will never affect me personally or take food from my table or money from my investments but strangely it interests me as I am a mother, grandmother and close to being a great grandmother. Believe me this strong difference of opinion is in all countries now. I have seen exactly what it has done between my children and grandchildren as all have vastly different opinions on just about every subject [even their same religion] so I am extremely glad that I live half way across the country from them all. Since I only get to see them probably a week yearly they are all on best behavior and just a huge fun time. I feel sorry for some families [royals across the world included] that are going thru this and not understanding each other's minds or mentally mocking each other. Way back in my day we did mostly what parents told us to do in religion, politics, views, and didn't talk back or question. Not so today and whether right or wrong it is the way it is. I actually don't mind at all as I enjoy getting the texts from grandchildren in their mid 20s asking my opinion even though answer not what they always want to hear. But I would never accept disrespect of any kind especially in public. They know and respect my rules on that subject. Shame this nonsense happened with royals in Spain in public. Wrong. Probably more to story that was a prelude to this small scene which we don't know about, but as royals a stop should be made clear that never again in public. Disagreement iron out in private. Disrespect on either side is not acceptable ever. JMHO
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  #1108  
Old 04-06-2018, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lula View Post
Franco's Spain was a patriarchal and conservative society... and the generational change is not over yet, but today's society is very different.

There are Spanish regions, especially in the north, where traditionally matriarchy has been strong. Spaniards have the surname of the father and the mother, and now they can be placed in the order you want.

Last Women's Day, Spain celebrated the largest gatherings in support of women in Europe. Universities have many more women than men.

Spaniards are mostly social Catholics, by tradition, by cultural customs ... but fewer and fewer are habitual practitioners.

So the topics are not real, or at least do not correspond to the current reality.

Even historically the Spanish monarchy did not leave the woman aside ...

The laws of the Crown of Castile allowed women to reign and so Isabel the Catholic reigned and then her daughter Juana reigned.

The Salic Law that forbade reigning women was introduced by the Bourbon dynasty, of French origin.

Later the law was changed so that Isabel II reigned, and her husband had the title of King.

The current Spanish Constitution says that the husband of the queen will be prince consort ... and that is because they copied from the other European monarchies, instead of following the Spanish tradition.
Very informative, Lula, thank you.
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  #1109  
Old 04-06-2018, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
If Letizia is really a "progressive" then she should advocate the end of the monarchy. It is as simple as that.
Apparently, that was her position before she became Princess of Asturias, which makes her sound fake and opportunistic by joining an institution she didn't believe in.

Quote:

Doña Sofía has no "cold blood". In her 40 years as Queen of Spain she has shown a heart, commitment, empathy and an immense sense of duty.

Note that in Belgium the King refused to sign the Abortion Act. Note that in Luxembourg the Grand-Duke refused to sign the Euthanasia Act. In Spain Doña Sofía ventilated carefully worded opinions and yes, you know: she can do that because she is a citzen of Spain. She is not the head of state. She has no role in Government. She has a total different position than the named monarchs on the throne.
I agree. Although I see no problem in abortions in the first trimester (when it is legal in Spain to do it), I understand that many people with strong religious beliefs take the position that human life starts at conception and have a strong opinion against abortion at any time. Queen Sofía in that respect is no different from King Baudouin, or Queen Fabiola, or Grand Duke Henri. An important difference though is that King Juan Carlos never let his personal beliefs interfere with his constitutional obligation to sanction laws passed by the Spanish parliament, not least because he is not personally nor legally responsible for those acts. About that difference, he even famously remarked: " I am the King of Spain, not of Belgium", when he endorsed same-sex marriage.
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  #1110  
Old 04-06-2018, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Juliette2 View Post
Welcome alvinking!

I know well all the countries you mentioned except Portugal and I have to admit that what you say is true but less and less so. Believe me, grandparents nowadays are mostly "used" as babysitters and providers of privileges that younger generations don't have anymore (real estate, good pensions, etc.). It's a sad state of affairs. Rudeness and condescension have replaced respect and support of the elders.
Also the Older generation who has the years under their belt so to speak and know better should do the same for the younger generation. It goes both ways if you want an honest relationship with each other.

Seriously I think there are many factors to this family and now things have boiled over, from reading here and elsewhere it seems that Letizia has put her foot down in regards to Cristina and Inaki in wanting them close to the throne. I don't blame her, yet *the royal family of Juan Carlos IMHO wants to give them a pass and let by gones be just that, so they steal, they are family and we always let family do as it pleases*, just take a look at Juan Carlos and all his shenanigans as an example. The royal family of Juan Carlos will *Never* forgive Letizia for that, for making Cristiana and Inaki now outsiders with no royal perks to their name, they are out for her blood and Queen Sofia is the leader of the pack. No doubt in my mind that this is coming to fruit as Inaki will soon be going to prison and I bet everyone will blame Letizia for what he did......Juan Carlos's family is corrupt and without shame for they put themselves above everyone else in Spain and I think Felipe/Letizia are working to bring Spain out the of dark ages into the world of today.

Letizia will not crumble under this for she is one very strong tough lady and in keeping Cristian and Inaki from Felipe's family ensure that her daughter will inherit the throne without criminals behind it.
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  #1111  
Old 04-06-2018, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by M. Payton View Post
Also the Older generation who has the years under their belt so to speak and know better should do the same for the younger generation. It goes both ways if you want an honest relationship with each other.

Seriously I think there are many factors to this family and now things have boiled over, from reading here and elsewhere it seems that Letizia has put her foot down in regards to Cristina and Inaki in wanting them close to the throne. I don't blame her, yet *the royal family of Juan Carlos IMHO wants to give them a pass and let by gones be just that, so they steal, they are family and we always let family do as it pleases*, just take a look at Juan Carlos and all his shenanigans as an example. The royal family of Juan Carlos will *Never* forgive Letizia for that, for making Cristiana and Inaki now outsiders with no royal perks to their name, they are out for her blood and Queen Sofia is the leader of the pack. No doubt in my mind that this is coming to fruit as Inaki will soon be going to prison and I bet everyone will blame Letizia for what he did......Juan Carlos's family is corrupt and without shame for they put themselves above everyone else in Spain and I think Felipe/Letizia are working to bring Spain out the of dark ages into the world of today.

Letizia will not crumble under this for she is one very strong tough lady and in keeping Cristian and Inaki from Felipe's family ensure that her daughter will inherit the throne without criminals behind it.

Cristiana and Iñaki are a matter for the Spanish courts. Cristina was acquitted of any criminal charges against her (hence, she is legally innocent) and had to pay a fine. Iñaki was found guilty and is awaiting the execution of his sentence pending an appeal, which is a fundamental human right extended to all citizens in a liberal democracy. Most likely, his appeal will fail and he will go to jail. I don't see why posters here want to make a connection between Letizia's tantrum in Mallorca and Cristina, when there is none.

Queen Sofía is neither corrupt, nor a criminal. Your sweeping generalizations then that "JC's family is corrupt" and "kept Spain in the dark ages" are totally uncalled for. JC was actually a very progressive monarch who did a lot to modernize Spain.
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  #1112  
Old 04-06-2018, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Why? Cristina showing up at the Anniversary mass is no surprise, it's her grandfather after all, a man Letizia has never met.
And where will people draw the line? What happens when JC and Sofia pass, will there be a controversy about Cristina attending the funerals? People should move on from this discussion, Cristina remains a member of this family, a fact that won't go away, no need to constantly quarrel about that.
I'm not quarreling about Cristina's presence. I was only suggesting Letizia may have been unhappy about it.
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  #1113  
Old 04-06-2018, 02:08 PM
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Another video from Letizia's side in church. I guess the lip-readers will be studying what Letizia's says
(sorry if its been posted)
https://youtu.be/nZg_WhK70es
https://twitter.com/jordipoch96/stat...84839023853568
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  #1114  
Old 04-06-2018, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by polyesco View Post
Another video from Letizia's side in church. I guess the lip-readers will be studying what Letizia's says
(sorry if its been posted)
https://youtu.be/nZg_WhK70es
https://twitter.com/jordipoch96/stat...84839023853568
Do not push me Sofía!
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  #1115  
Old 04-06-2018, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Cristiana and Iñaki are a matter for the Spanish courts. Cristina was acquitted of any criminal charges against her (hence, she is legally innocent) and had to pay a fine. Iñaki was found guilty and is awaiting the execution of his sentence pending an appeal, which is a fundamental human right extended to all citizens in a liberal democracy. Most likely, his appeal will fail and he will go to jail. I don't see why posters here want to make a connection between Letizia's tantrum in Mallorca and Cristina, when there is none.

Queen Sofía is neither corrupt, nor a criminal. Your sweeping generalizations then that "JC's family is corrupt" and "kept Spain in the dark ages" are totally uncalled for. JC was actually a very progressive monarch who did a lot to modernize Spain.
Queen Sofia has for years now supported Inaki and what he did, if that is not corrupt I do not know what is. This situation is not just what happened at the Easter service, I in my own opinion think many *factors* are the result of this situation or what ever anyone calls that made things come to a head between both queens. There seems to be on going tension between the 2 ladies and both are it seems very strong willed and determined to have their own way in regards to the girls. Letizia is first and foremost the mother and Sofia is the grandmother only.

Juan Carlos has done many things to help Spain yet he and others in the family seem to think what Inaki has done is okay by their very actions in supporting him. I for one do not think that people are all stupid in the fact that Cristina was found not guilty by the courts.......she was married to the man, she is very well educated and an intelligent woman...anybody that thinks for one second that she was not involved in that,give me a break. When I say dark ages it is the attitude that I am referring to, just because someone is an elder or the head of a family does not mean that they are always right and can do as they please, if that was the case then I would do as I please for I am the head of my family and I respect others in my family to live their own lives, Sofia does not for she wants it seems to me to use those girls for her image in public by *her very actions*.

This is not just *one* thing that did this, no way, you can see the way they relate to each other, how they stand far apart, in videos out there you see the tension between them......so mothers and mothers/in/laws do not like each other or get along......so what, yet Sofia had no business using those girls for her image by wanting *another picture* of them and how many pictures does one need each time there is an event somewhere......I see Sofia as a person out for her own image these days as she is having a hard accepting that there is someone else in the limelight and doing whatever it takes to be in the spotlight again.
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  #1116  
Old 04-06-2018, 02:34 PM
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Do not push me Sofía!
I'd be really surprised if Letizia addresses her MIL as 'Sofia'.
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  #1117  
Old 04-06-2018, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Cristiana and Iñaki are a matter for the Spanish courts. Cristina was acquitted of any criminal charges against her (hence, she is legally innocent) and had to pay a fine. Iñaki was found guilty and is awaiting the execution of his sentence pending an appeal, which is a fundamental human right extended to all citizens in a liberal democracy. Most likely, his appeal will fail and he will go to jail. I don't see why posters here want to make a connection between Letizia's tantrum in Mallorca and Cristina, when there is none.

Queen Sofía is neither corrupt, nor a criminal. Your sweeping generalizations then that "JC's family is corrupt" and "kept Spain in the dark ages" are totally uncalled for. JC was actually a very progressive monarch who did a lot to modernize Spain.
People conveniently forget that Franco left JC absolute power in Spain and that it was JC the one who gave that out so we could have democracy.

He and Sofia really had tough times when they came to Spain, had to deal with a lot of stuff and had to keep an eye on their backs because someone could backstab them at any given moment.

But hey, let's forget all about that and focus on the couple who has done nothing to win the favor of the Spanish people.
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  #1118  
Old 04-06-2018, 02:36 PM
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Oh dear, more fuel to the fire! I have to say Letizia does not look good in that new video. She seems to quite literally square up to Sofia who ends up walking away, Sofia looks like she just wants to get away from them all by the end of it. I mean in this situation who can she turn to, her notorious philandering husband?
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  #1119  
Old 04-06-2018, 02:44 PM
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I have a question. Why did JC and Sofia abdicate if they’re so popular?

From an outsider perspective, Felipe and Letizia seem to be doing a bang up job.
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  #1120  
Old 04-06-2018, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
To me the Queen Emeritus of Spain, has proven repeatedly that she represents an antediluvian Spain, more in tune with the Francoist era, than the Spain we have watched develop in the modern era. Her Homophobia, her outbursts against Abortion, and her CLOSE links with Opus Dei clearly represent the PAST.. She does have buckets of 'Blue blood', but also 'cold blood', and she should {IMO}now retire ENTIRELY..
I don't agree with all of Queen Sofia's views & think she should have kept them to herself but I wouldn't call her antediluvian. There are many others who share them and keep in mind Juan Carlos and Sofia chose a constitutional monarchy over Franco's military dictatorship. I also think expecting her to retire entirely is a slap on the face considering all the good she has done. Based on Letizia's unpopularity I suspect she has her own share of "cold"' blood.
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