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  #1081  
Old 04-06-2018, 06:46 AM
hofburg's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moby View Post
One thing's for sure, individual biases become clearest in situations like these. Fans and haters of each Queen speak for or against them.
Your 'analysis' seems to have left out another category of "fans". The ones, that despite Letizia's evident gross misconduct, try to present themselves as objective and unbiased.

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Originally Posted by moby View Post
I would think that the "intelligent" Spaniards know there is more to this than meets the eye, give both women the benefit of doubt, wish BOTH women acted more graciously, and that most of all, there are more pressing matters that should be debated.
I am positive the the intelligent (sans double quotation marks) spaniards know that one cannot spin this case in Letizia's favour, despite the attempts of some of her "objective" fans.


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Originally Posted by moby View Post
The ones viciously and loudly attacking Letizia and Leonor might be the loudest but it is no surprise, everybody knows Letizia has not been the most popular member of the Spanish RF.

Excellent point. Perhaps it's worth contemplating why she has been so, consistently, unpopular. All the other Crown Princesses and Princes in Europe (some are also queens now) have been immensely popular and loved in their own countries. Some of them, despite a rocky start.


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Originally Posted by moby View Post
Loudest doesn't mean smartest though, so I doubt they're representative of "intelligent Spaniards with good sense" that you were referring to.
Indeed it does not. The merit of written words as well as spoken ones,is derived from their content and relation to facts, not for the Speaker/Writer's tone.

Hence, disguising one's opinions and biases under under a veil of "objectivity" and "good will" in a "measured" tone is neither an indication of smartness nor of being genuine.
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  #1082  
Old 04-06-2018, 06:58 AM
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People who vehemently dislike Letizia are not objective about others more measured posts or those who see there are various interpretations of the video.
They only see that which supports their dislike.
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  #1083  
Old 04-06-2018, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Livia View Post
Whatever who orchestrate all this ... we have to congratule him, her or them, people didn't talk of Cristina's stellar visit to Spain and hubby, or Catalonia problems. Well played, press.
I guess Rajoy is one of those who is glad about the 'War of the Queens' taking all the headlines, Carles Puigdemont will not be extradited to Spain on rebellion charges, although he may still face action over a lesser charge of corruption. German judges have him released on bail pending a decision.

The latest video in slow motion, Leonor slapping away both hands, JC can't believe his eyes

https://www.huffingtonpost.es/2018/0...ia_a_23404633/
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  #1084  
Old 04-06-2018, 07:45 AM
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I'm a new member and i have been reading this thread for a while now and there are a couple of things that seems missing

First, one must understand that Spain like France Portugal Italy is latin country with its codes. It is what it is and it is a conservative patriarchal country where the respect of the elder is paramount. Those who support the monarchy as in fact the most conservative and the ones most likely to be offended by what has happened. By acting in public the way Letizia did, reflects negatively on the King who comes across like a wimp, and this is unacceptable in this society. The people who would be a bit modernist and be on the side of Letizia are generally republicans who would want to get rid of the monarchy. In effect, she is alienating the people who would support her status as Queen.

Whether she like it or not Doña Leonor is the Princess of the Asturias and she belongs to Spain. If she wants privacy, she'd better ask her husband and daughters to abdicate and they will have their privacy. Doña Elena and Don Felipe Froilan are there to pick up the responsibility if needed. You can have your cookie and eat it too.

Doña Sofia deserves respect. Letizia is queen not only because Doña Sofia stood by JC regardless of what she was going through to save the crown, but aslo because she was one of the few who supported Felipe when he decided to marry her

Those commoners who marry into royal families lack that sense of duty that is instilled into those who are born into it. They don't want to bite the bullets, they want to change the institution from within, if things don't go their way they want to divorce etc (cf The Princess of Wales). Why have a monarchy if the institution is devoided of everything that is its essence. If they want to be normal, good but then, no need for the monarchy and welcome to the republic.
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  #1085  
Old 04-06-2018, 07:47 AM
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I feel there is also a culture difference in play. Some posters see it as an irritation of individual A against individual B.

But here that individual was Doña Sofía. For many Spaniards still La Reina.
It is simply so not done to act like Letizia did. She has overstepped an invisible line in society. Besides the fact that a mother and a grandmother have a different position, there is also something like dignity and decorum. Towards a Queen.

And we are in Spain. A mother can only see a blue sky when there is a blue sky. In Spain however a mother has superpowers and knows it’s going to rain (and she is always right, especially if you decided to leave the umbrella at home).

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  #1086  
Old 04-06-2018, 07:49 AM
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Congratulations on your first post, alvinking

And thank you bringing up the cultural aspect of the local reactions to this incident. Most educational.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alvinking View Post
I'm a new member and i have been reading this thread for a while now and there are a couple of things that seems missing

First, one must understand that Spain like France Portugal Italy is latin country with its codes. It is what it is and it is a conservative patriarchal country where the respect of the elder is paramount. Those who support the monarchy as in fact the most conservative and the ones most likely to be offended by what has happened. By acting in public the way Letizia did, reflects negatively on the King who comes across like a wimp, and this is unacceptable in this society. The people who would be a bit modernist and be on the side of Letizia are generally republicans who would want to get rid of the monarchy. In effect, she is alienating the people who would support her status as Queen.

Whether she like it or not Doña Leonor is the Princess of the Asturias and she belongs to Spain. If she wants privacy, she'd better ask her husband and daughters to abdicate and they will have their privacy. Doña Elena and Don Felipe Froilan are there to pick up the responsibility if needed. You can have your cookie and eat it too.

Doña Sofia deserves respect. Letizia is queen not only because Doña Sofia stood by JC regardless of what she was going through to save the crown, but aslo because she was one of the few who supported Felipe when he decided to marry her

Those commoners who marry into royal families lack that sense of duty that is instilled into those who are born into it. They don't want to bite the bullets, they want to change the institution from within, if things don't go their way they want to divorce etc (cf The Princess of Wales). Why have a monarchy if the institution is devoided of everything that is its essence. If they want to be normal, good but then, no need for the monarchy and welcome to the republic.
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  #1087  
Old 04-06-2018, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
she is always right
Is not the Queen of Spain ALSO a mother [and therefore 'ALWAYS' right'] ? Particularly in this instance where HER child is being manhandled [against the childs clearly expressed will].
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  #1088  
Old 04-06-2018, 08:11 AM
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Yesterday in a radio program they made two teams ... those who supported Sofia were generally older people ... who supported Letizia young people.

For the elderly, Sofía is a woman who endured Juan Carlos because it was her obligation ... for young women, Sofia gave a very bad example doing it.

For some Sofia is a professional because she was born a princess ... for others Letizia is a professional because before she has worked and has lived in real life.

Sofia will always be the queen who criticized homosexuals ... Letizia who opened the palace doors to them.

Sofia is the queen of post-Francoism (has been surrounded by people close to Opus Dei)... Letizia the queen of the 21st century ... and social change in Spain has been brutal.

Society changes, and regardless of whether people are conservative or progressive there are things that according to age are seen differently. It is true that young people are usually the most progressive, and also the most republican ... but it is also true that these people grow and mature ... and they can change their ideas , but not with the same values as the adults of today.

Operation Triunfo is a musical contest that triumphed 15 years ago in Spain and had a big success. A few months ago they decided to broadcast it again, and the people were quite pessimistic about whether they would succeed years later. The program has been a huge success, and it has been because it has managed to connect with the values that young people and a large part of the people now defend.

Spain moves between two generations ... those that were born in the Franco regime and grew up in it and with the principle of democracy, and those that were born fully in democracy... and the differences go much further than the different political ideologies.
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  #1089  
Old 04-06-2018, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alvinking View Post
I'm a new member and i have been reading this thread for a while now and there are a couple of things that seems missing

First, one must understand that Spain like France Portugal Italy is latin country with its codes. It is what it is and it is a conservative patriarchal country where the respect of the elder is paramount. Those who support the monarchy as in fact the most conservative and the ones most likely to be offended by what has happened. By acting in public the way Letizia did, reflects negatively on the King who comes across like a wimp, and this is unacceptable in this society. The people who would be a bit modernist and be on the side of Letizia are generally republicans who would want to get rid of the monarchy. In effect, she is alienating the people who would support her status as Queen.

Whether she like it or not Doña Leonor is the Princess of the Asturias and she belongs to Spain. If she wants privacy, she'd better ask her husband and daughters to abdicate and they will have their privacy. Doña Elena and Don Felipe Froilan are there to pick up the responsibility if needed. You can have your cookie and eat it too.

Doña Sofia deserves respect. Letizia is queen not only because Doña Sofia stood by JC regardless of what she was going through to save the crown, but aslo because she was one of the few who supported Felipe when he decided to marry her

Those commoners who marry into royal families lack that sense of duty that is instilled into those who are born into it. They don't want to bite the bullets, they want to change the institution from within, if things don't go their way they want to divorce etc (cf The Princess of Wales). Why have a monarchy if the institution is devoided of everything that is its essence. If they want to be normal, good but then, no need for the monarchy and welcome to the republic.
Thank you for words of wisdom, alviking. Brilliant post.
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  #1090  
Old 04-06-2018, 08:30 AM
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I think that the monarchy in Spain has a future. It needs to be cared for and well cared for. In Portugal many young people defend the restoration of the monarchy. I find this controversy exaggerated over this incident between Queen Letizia and Queen Sofia.
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  #1091  
Old 04-06-2018, 08:37 AM
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To me the Queen Emeritus of Spain, has proven repeatedly that she represents an antediluvian Spain, more in tune with the Francoist era, than the Spain we have watched develop in the modern era. Her Homophobia, her outbursts against Abortion, and her CLOSE links with Opus Dei clearly represent the PAST.. She does have buckets of 'Blue blood', but also 'cold blood', and she should {IMO}now retire ENTIRELY..
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  #1092  
Old 04-06-2018, 08:39 AM
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Sofia is a woman of her generation and so is Letizia. The question is, does the institution care about that. Just because you have a progressive Queen, the institution is suddenly equally progressive.

Sofia put up with JC's infidelty as most women of her generation and social status would have done, as 'right' as it was perceived back then, as 'wrong' is is perceived today, and rightly so. Same with regard to her views on homosexuality or abortion, it is the thinking of Sofia's generation. Lots of elderly people won't share the views of the younger generation because its not the world they grew up in.

Still, Sofia is much more than only a victim of JC's treatment, clinging on to her title. She put in years of hard work and personal sacrifices, same as JC, together they built the monarchy we have today, despite Franco, ETA and many other obstacles. I dare say without Sofia's effort and loyalty to her husband, Felipe very likely had a different job today. Of course mostly Sofia's generation remembers, that's a sign of the times, but as difficult she might be as MIL, Sofia has earned her place as Queen in the Spanish history books and deserves some respect for that, even from the younger generation. Same goes for Juan Carlos, his generation remembers, many of the young people do not.
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  #1093  
Old 04-06-2018, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lula View Post
Yesterday in a radio program they made two teams ... those who supported Sofia were generally older people ... who supported Letizia young people.

For the elderly, Sofía is a woman who endured Juan Carlos because it was her obligation ... for young women, Sofia gave a very bad example doing it.

For some Sofia is a professional because she was born a princess ... for others Letizia is a professional because before she has worked and has lived in real life.

Sofia will always be the queen who criticized homosexuals ... Letizia who opened the palace doors to them.

Sofia is the queen of post-Francoism (has been surrounded by people close to Opus Dei)... Letizia the queen of the 21st century ... and social change in Spain has been brutal.

Society changes, and regardless of whether people are conservative or progressive there are things that according to age are seen differently. It is true that young people are usually the most progressive, and also the most republican ... but it is also true that these people grow and mature ... and they can change their ideas , but not with the same values as the adults of today.

...
This, so true. Few countries in the world can match Spain's social transformation. Even academic research concurs with this. The World Values Survey, which monitors social change by measuring the differences in attitudes of people from different age groups, concluded that out of 80 countries, Spain had the largest difference in values between older and younger generations.

I'll digress a bit but I wonder how they will take into account Spain's rapid changes in molding Leonor for her future role.
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  #1094  
Old 04-06-2018, 08:45 AM
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Several posts containing personal attacks on fellow posters and some emptry posts have been deleted.
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  #1095  
Old 04-06-2018, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
To me the Queen Emeritus of Spain, has proven repeatedly that she represents an antediluvian Spain, more in tune with the Francoist era, than the Spain we have watched develop in the modern era. Her Homophobia, her outbursts against Abortion, and her CLOSE links with Opus Dei clearly represent the PAST.. She does have buckets of 'Blue blood', but also 'cold blood', and she should {IMO}now retire ENTIRELY..
Like i said, Spain is a patriarchal conservative country. One of the title of the King is His Most Catholic Majesty, a title awarded by the Pope. The Queen of Spain has le privilège du blanc, so this is not a value judgement, but it is not surprising that her value are in line, with those of the catholic church, be it abortion, position vis à vis homosexuality, or the Opus Dei. It is what it is.
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  #1096  
Old 04-06-2018, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leidi View Post
[B]
4. Anniversary Mass for Don Juan de Borbón
No one knows when their relationship went sour but Sofía has tried to be a peacemaker between Cristina and her brother, trying to convince Felipe to at least allow her back into the family life, Letizia disagrees and that's why at said funeral (which Cristina attended, the family welcoming with open arms except for F&L) the two Queens didn't talk or even look at each other at all.

5. The Palma Incident of this year.

The only one I give Letizia the point is the Cristina situation, apart from that it's just yet another demonstration of how controlling and obsessive she is with her daughters.
I suspect the tension between the two Queens at the Easter Mass was partly due to Cristina's expected presence at the anniversary Mass. Sofia won that battle and Letizia wasn't happy. Then throw in Sofia's own unhappiness at not being allowed to see her granddaughters as often as she'd like, while Letizia's own mother can. That must explain her frustration when Letizia stepped in to block the photograph.

The pot was already boiling before the disagreement over the photograph took place.
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  #1097  
Old 04-06-2018, 09:09 AM
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I do not follow the SRF very much so I'm not exactly in the know. Do you think that Spain was not ready for Felipe and Letizia when JC abdicated? Is there resentment about that?
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  #1098  
Old 04-06-2018, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by alvinking View Post
Like i said, Spain is a patriarchal conservative country. One of the title of the King is His Most Catholic Majesty, a title awarded by the Pope. The Queen of Spain has le privilège du blanc, so this is not a value judgement, but it is not surprising that her value are in line, with those of the catholic church, be it abortion, position vis à vis homosexuality, or the Opus Dei. It is what it is.
Exactly. Plus, her views are shared by many contemporary, living people. It's a ruse to say that some views are "in the past."
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  #1099  
Old 04-06-2018, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by alvinking View Post



Doña Sofia deserves respect. Letizia is queen not only because Doña Sofia stood by JC regardless of what she was going through to save the crown, but aslo because she was one of the few who supported Felipe when he decided to marry her.
.
Exactly. To state that Sofia a troublemaker, as another forum member has done, is absurd. If Sofia wanted to cause trouble she had plenty of opportunity to do so, long before April 1, 2018, and long before Letizia arrived on the scene.
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  #1100  
Old 04-06-2018, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alvinking View Post
I'm a new member and i have been reading this thread for a while now and there are a couple of things that seems missing

First, one must understand that Spain like France Portugal Italy is latin country with its codes. It is what it is and it is a conservative patriarchal country where the respect of the elder is paramount. [...]
Welcome alvinking!

I know well all the countries you mentioned except Portugal and I have to admit that what you say is true but less and less so. Believe me, grandparents nowadays are mostly "used" as babysitters and providers of privileges that younger generations don't have anymore (real estate, good pensions, etc.). It's a sad state of affairs. Rudeness and condescension have replaced respect and support of the elders.
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