Future and Popularity of the Spanish Monarchy

[ANNIE_S]

A new hint: the Catalan president Carles Puigdemont has just given an interview to BBC News stating his government is bound to make an unilateral declaration of independence "within days". Everything is happening really fast, but if the central government and the royal house knew about that interview beforehand, the speech must be considered under a new light.

 

[wyevale]

the speech must be considered under a new light.

Yes, as a rallying cry to the rest of Spain, not to 'self destruct'. If Catalonia does announce its secession from Spain, it will drop out of the EU, lose its currency [the Euro] and much of its foreign investment.
Spain will veto any application to rejoin the EU [which in any case will take YEARS].
This speedy exit will be a profound shock to the region, to Spain and to the EU, and will make Brexit look orderly and well organised...

God help us all...

 

[Al_bina]

King Felipe's speech was awkward. It was not shrewd to accuse Catalans of irresponsible behaviour and being a threat to Spain's social and economic stability.

 

[Somebody]

Especially the reference to the economic stability hints at what some of the Catalans are concerned about: that the main reason Spain wants to keep them is because of the money they bring in. Not a smart move...

 

[ANNIE_S]

The main reason they want to leave if because they don't want to be linked to poorer regions yeah how very democratic and respectable

Next to that the rest of Spain will vote to be separated from Extremadura which is only a waste of money and no productive at all and the rest of the world will have to endure it because every people has the right to self determination.

I'm sorry, but I'm watching my country tearing apart and I'm not in the mood to tolerate uninformed, Coelhian opinions on the right to decide and the almost mystical act of voting or any other nationalist propaganda. You are treating the Catalan independence movement as if it was Scotland while it actually is the Italian North League. We've been dealing with them for years, they have received (very unfairly) so much more than the rest of the regions and yet I have to endure moral superiority. No way.

 

[wyevale]

We've been dealing with them for years, they have received (very unfairly) so much more than the rest of the regions and yet I have to endure moral superiority. No way.

I understand your pain.. MANY Brits feel exactly the same about the Scots...

 

[Pranter]

Is this kinda like the whole Ireland/England thing? Or England/Scotland?


LaRae

 

[JR76]

Listening to a live translation on Euronews I got the impression that the King stressed
1. That Spain was stronger together and 2. That the referendum was unconstitutional.
My point all along, looking in from abroad, is that when things have gone so far as in Catalonia and Scotland both sides must work towards a compromise and the citizens must have their say in a democratic society. The referendum was unconstitutional yes but the use of force was unforgivable.
From what I've understood a majority of the inhabitants of Catalonia was against independence but the same majority also wanted a referendum to have a say and settle the matter for all. Maybe Felipe should have chosen other words but nobody can be surprised that he's for keeping the nation together.
I truly believe he's not pro a united Spain just for the sake of keeping his throne but because he sees it as the best for the country's citizens.

 

[Somebody]

The main reason they want to leave if because they don't want to be linked to poorer regions yeah how very democratic and respectable

Fair enough. That argument goes both ways! If that would be the only reason for people to be in favour of independence, I would love to argue with them and try to convince them that it would be a very bad reason and that the 'higher way' would be to stick together and bear responsibility for each other. However, I do think that (at least for some) there is more to that; the fact that they speak a different language is a clear sign of different cultures as well.

Next to that the rest of Spain will vote to be separated from Extremadura which is only a waste of money and no productive at all and the rest of the world will have to endure it because every people has the right to self determination.

Those of Extremadura expressing an interest to become an independent country, yes, others kicking them out, no!

I'm sorry, but I'm watching my country tearing apart and I'm not in the mood to tolerate uninformed, Coelhian opinions on the right to decide and the almost mystical act of voting or any other nationalist propaganda. You are treating the Catalan independence movement as if it was Escocia while it actually is the Italian North League.

Nor do I appreciate being called uninformed; I might not be Spanish but I lived in Spain (and would love to return some day) so that probably explains part of my interest in the topic.

However, I do understand how you (and many others) so much wish for the country to stay united (and you probably are even more concerned about the police interventions of last Sunday). I also would love to see that - but not at all costs. Unfortunately, I don't think the king's speech has contributed to a solution but instead worsened the situation. To be clear: I don't think that a different speech would have been the solution but it might have been a small step in the direction of a solution instead of backwards. It is a hard road ahead and I really hope that wise people will be found/stand up to find ways for reconciliation.

I've stated my position on independence movements before (in short: there should be a reasonable path with lots of safeguards making it possible if an overwhelming majority (2/3rds?) of the population of the region that strives for independence wishes so - knowing fully well what the consequences are; as it is easy to vote for a 'general idea' but something different if it truly costs you). The current actions of the Catalan government should clearly be condemned but that is also true for the actions of the Spanish government. Yet, not giving any perspective to the people for independence (I don't think they will have a 2/3rd majority any time soon!) but instead responding with oppression is unwise.

We've been dealing with them for years, they have received (very unfairly) so much more than the rest of the regions and yet I have to endure moral superiority. No way.

I understand that the 'advantages' have been used to appease the independence movements; so yes, it is very logical that it creates frustration among Spaniards from other region. I don't think giving in will ever be considered 'enough', so the only solution would be a realistic path to independence (which I hope would not happen but that's not up to me), how undesirable that prospect might be. That would also eliminate the current unfairness. Of course, the same opportunity should be offered to other regions as well: hopefully all regions show to have the desire to remain part of Spain(because of their love of Spain not because of oppression).

 

[ANNIE_S]

You don't dialogue with those who deliberately break the law, and dialogue with them just because they have broken the law. They have seats at the Spanish Parlament, there are ways to propose a Constitution change that would allow them to vote, or support a transition to a Federal State that other political groups would actually support. They have declined the lawful way (as Felipe has noted on his speech btw) because they know it would take YEARS (who on his right mind would create a new country in a month?) and they rely most of their popular support on people's anger and quick succession of events, just like any other nationalism (Brexit anyone?)

I would have appreciated also a self criticism from Felipe as the highest representant from the State about the shameful way this whole thing was handled and at first considered the speech very harsh, but when the Catalans authorities are anouncing an unilateral declaration of independance at the same time, what dialogue is left for? It's pretty obvious they are just heading for their objetive and won't negotiate, they know perfectly all their acts can be punished by Spanish laws and yet they do it, which means (Margaery Tyrell speaking) "they have no intention to face such consequences".

I know we all like to be for dialogue and words and good willing stuff, but this has got to a point when we must be realistic and assume that's utopic. Unless they recapacite during the next few days, they are either heading to independence or to Court. And if it's independence, things can go even worse.

 

[PetticoatLane]

A king totally out of his depth.

This was not a speech, it was a lecture aimed entirely at one side only! Like a father scolding an errant child! I have no sympathy for separatism, I'm a Brit of Scots descent. But the Spanish government have committed unbelievable blunder after unbelievable blunder in the last few days. Felipe has not helped anything tonight, in fact he's done the opposite.

It would have been entirely possible for him to say he believes in the unity of Spain and the rule of law, while also trying to heal some wounds, re-build some bridges, urge peaceful dialogue and negotiation. He chose not to do so. A colossal mistake.

Had the British government asked Elizabeth II to make a speech of this kind after the Scottish referendum, I truly believe she would have refused. Her secretaries would have been frantically negotiating with the government to go a different way.

Felipe clearly does not have the strength of character to do so. Extremely disappointing.

 

[Somebody]

Yes, it would have been much better if that dialogue had started way earlier, so all of this could have been avoided. Moreover, rewarding this kind of behaviour (such as declaring independence, which is a nightmare scenario - or the use of violence in the past) with 'negotiation talks' also doesn't seem right. Although punishing the Catalan people isn't either...

Unfortunately, the national government response has made it worse instead of better. As has been said before, why all this oppression? It was illegal (and therefore had no meaning) and did not take place according to officials, so why the use of violence to prevent something that is not happing (according to themselves) from happening; that only legitimizes the referendum. For saying that they wanted to keep the country united, this was exactly the opposite what they should have done even in this tough situation.

At the moment there might not be a lot of dialogue left (hopefully that will change in the future) but compassion for his people (including the ones that have very different points of view) is something that I would expect from any monarch; so completely ignoring the violence (which in practice means condoning it) was the worst he could do.

We just can hope that somehow reasonable people will stand up and that the peace will be restored and a path forward is constructed in which all voices (including both the Catalans pro-independence and those against) to be heard.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

The main reason they want to leave if because they don't want to be linked to poorer regions yeah how very democratic and respectable

This is not new in Europe. In Germany we have a federal system, eg Bayern, one of the wealthiest states has gone to court several times to change the system of payments to Berlin/redistributing the money to the other, poorer states. But we were talking early times, Bayern has no serious claim for independence and it's about money, as usual. The problem is in the process of being solved politically.
This point seems to have passed in Spain for many months, maybe years, a fault of all parties involved to let it come so far, including the crown when the monarch could still have acted as a moderator, knowing very well the strong separatist movement/resentment of the central government or the crown.
I missed in Felipe's speech a strong call to condemn violence of any form and a reflection of how this mess was created, something he did during the election desaster during the past year. He presented himself as Rojoy's tool in this speech.
I think that a change of constitution in Spain has been put on hold for far too long, maybe a change to a federal system would have made a difference.
Spain's King Felipe VI condemns Catalan authorities | Daily Mail Online

 

[lula]

The King has been making calls to dialogue for years, has visited Catalonia much more than other regions, makes his speeches there in Catalan (which Juan Carlos never did) ... the king also has been harassed years by the Catalan independentists. They are the ones who whistle at soccer games, who burn his photos or use them to simulate their death, who make all kinds of cruel jokes about the Royal Family, including children.

In September the Catalan government reached a breaking point, where dialogue for dialogue no longer serves, because they have transgressed all laws.

They have not only organized an illegal vote that goes against the Spanish laws, they have taken Catalan laws, voted by the Catalans in referendum and have passed on them, to create new laws, that the population has not voted and everything without the legal guarantee of the Catalan Parliament itself.

The law they have approved has little of democracy, not only because of the process employed, but also because of its contents. They declare themselves immune to the law, do not comply with the separation of powers, seek to seize all the property of the Spanish State in Catalonia... and a whole series of things that are outside international law.

The Catalan government and its publicity apparatus are not ashamed to tell lies to citizens. Although the European Union has been saying for years that if they leave Spain they will be left ... they continue to say that they will continue to be part of it. And like that many promises in which they involve third parties and that legally are not viable. They promise an idyllic independence, when the process would be terribly complicated and normal citizens will suffer the consequences.

The Catalan government is lost ... they have reached a point where they have no choice but to declare their independence unilaterally ... because the other option would be to recognize that they have lied to the people and the consequence will be that those people will turn against them. In addition their independence gives them immunity, while staying in Spain will take them to jail.

The King's message yesterday was for the Catalans, to tell them they can not trust a government that violates the laws they have democratically voted, a government that drives them to face each other. They need to rely on democracy and the rule of law to defend their ideas.

 

[moby]

Ridiculous how Catalunya has been hijacked by a corrupt, minority government who impose their views on all. But then again this populist wave has been going on throughout the world in the past couple of years. Unfortunately people who want a silver bullet solution to their own problems buy into the shenanigans of politicians who want to exploit sentiment for their political gain.

I believe the King was reaching out to the "silent majority" who are worried about what is happening and whom he felt needed the reassurance. They are the ones also who have been reduced to silence and discredited by the current government. It is also unfortunate that because the latter does not make for interesting news, the Anglo media will play the Catalan independence movement to maximum drama. Police violence is never the answer, but anybody who thought the Guardias and the Policia would stand down in the face of civil disobedience obviously do not know how steadfast these guys are in doing their jobs. Sadly, the media was waiting for these scenes, those who voted most likely knew perfectly well this what would happen, and Puigdemont and company were likely hoping for this narrative (Francoist Spain being oppressive, etc etc) kind of angle in the media.

I don't know if the King could have done a better job, we obviously don't know what he thinks but it seems clear his idea of monarchy and its relevance is not along Queen Elizabeth's line of keeping quiet on anything political but more along his father's line of delivering a statement and making clear the position of the monarchy when things get rough politically. Then again, the modern Spanish Royal House is intrinsically linked to politics, much more so than its neighbors.

By the way somebody pointed that it there's more to the independence movement than the economic reason and that speaking a different language is a sign of a different culture. However, lots of countries in the world have people with different ethnicities and languages and they coexist and are united under a shared idea of national unity. I was in Barcelona last week (and will be back again tomorrow, which should be interesting) so this is completely anecdotal but it seems like most pro-independence citizens I spoke with have an overinflated sense of Catalunya's economic capacity and that its potential is enough to withstand whatever happens next if they become independent. I find this thinking selfish (because they do not back their sentiment with hard studies and are putting succeeding generations' futures in jeopardy) and arrogant (complete underestimation of the role of Madrid and EU in their economic prosperity). It is a sad business all in all.

 

[An Ard Ri]

The entire situation is a huge mess and very,very worrying.

 

[asma]

He was supposed to show some compassion for those who were unjustly brutalized by the police. Even 'civil disobedience' should not lead to a police force using unnecessary violence to their own people (who they probably don't even view as their own people). It surely is possible to both uphold your position and condemn the violence that was used - as Duke of Marmelade, wyevale and Yashal also missed in this speech. A king is to unite not divide his people. Unfortunately, king Felipe is not up to that task at probably one of his most critical moments of his reign so far.

Some are giving the King the benefit of the doubt in that he is just representing the government point of view but if he would not agree he wouldn't hold the speech. So, I do think that he fully supports this stance. Had he not, he would not have held this speech as there was no requirement for him to do so. The way he delivered his speech also was a clear sign of his enormous zeal in condemning the actions of the Catalan government and indirectly those who support them (and not of the Spanish government or the police).

Well said ...uniting people required the condemnation of faults of each side but the speach was all condmnation of catalon faults ..the king only choice was to talk and express opinions of the government ....not to talk at all will expose him to critisize from spanish people ,indead a very difficult situation for him and he prefered to take the government side for his own benefit and saving his reighn.

 

[lula]

The King is the head of the Spanish State ... what should be his attitude before a coup of State?

The king in his speech supported the Catalans, those who were independentists and the millions who are not, defended the Catalan laws that the Catalans voted ... he did not support a government that is breaking the law and organizing a coup of State.

Should Juan Carlos have been sympathetic and supported to the coup militia of 23F?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Would it have been seen as taking sides by condemning any violence?

At least this is a position that should speak for both parties.

 

[An Ard Ri]

The media all seem to be one sided just reporting on Pro Independence rallies are there any anti Independence Pro unity ones taking place?

 

[lula]

Duke, the problem is that words like "dialogue" or "violence" have been so poorly used in recent days that probably they have been deliberately avoided.

When there has been a condemnation of violence, in general, the independentists have used it only as a condemnation of the police action, not recognizing their violent acts.

Moby, the economic issue is interesting ... those who support the independentists are convinced that their government has everything prepared, as they are convinced that they will continue in the European Union or that the Barca will be able to continue playing in the League (even though the European leaders and the Spanish league deny it).

A biomedical company announced yesterday its transfer from Barcelona to Madrid, and today its value has gone up 30%.

The banks based in Catalonia are falling heavily in the stock market, and there are Spaniards who by boycott or fear of losing their savings are starting to change their money from banks.

La Caixa is an icon in Catalonia, but more than 80% of its business is in the rest of Spain. According to the press, they have everything prepared to move to Madrid if there is independence. There are big Catalan companies that will have to leave an independent Catalonia if they want to survive ... because without being in Spain or in the European Union their future in very black.

 

[lula]

An Ard Ri, on Saturday there were demonstrations in favor of the unity of Spain in all Spanish cities, including Barcelona.

In Catalonia, non-independents are a silent majority. Their government is in favor of independence, have been promoting Catalan and despising Spain for 40 years ... so for them, free expression is much more difficult, and they can suffer attacks from the most radical independentists.

Only in the last years has emerged a political party, Ciudadanos, and some social movements that from Catalonia defend openly the membership to Spain.

In recent weeks, many famous Catalans, not suspected of being so, have been singled out as fascists for not supporting the referendum.

 

[moby]

The media all seem to be one sided just reporting on Pro Independence rallies are there any anti Independence Pro unity ones taking place?

I haven't seen any pro unity rallies in Madrid (I might have been asleep the whole weekend) but there are lots of Spanish flags on windows and on the day of the referendum, people were walking around using the flag as cape or tied to their purses.

But the majority usually doesn't go out to the streets, same reason why there were barely any anti-Brexit rallies. They feel like the fight is between the government, or the govt should fight for them, or they are just complacent.

 

[TLLK]

Duke, the problem is that words like "dialogue" or "violence" have been so poorly used in recent days that probably they have been deliberately avoided.

When there has been a condemnation of violence, in general, the independentists have used it only as a condemnation of the police action, not recognizing their violent acts.

Moby, the economic issue is interesting ... those who support the independentists are convinced that their government has everything prepared, as they are convinced that they will continue in the European Union or that the Barca will be able to continue playing in the League (even though the European leaders and the Spanish league deny it).

A biomedical company announced yesterday its transfer from Barcelona to Madrid, and today its value has gone up 30%.

The banks based in Catalonia are falling heavily in the stock market, and there are Spaniards who by boycott or fear of losing their savings are starting to change their money from banks.

La Caixa is an icon in Catalonia, but more than 80% of its business is in the rest of Spain. According to the press, they have everything prepared to move to Madrid if there is independence. There are big Catalan companies that will have to leave an independent Catalonia if they want to survive ... because without being in Spain or in the European Union their future in very black.

Lula thank you for sharing this news about the possible economic impact of the independence movement.

 

[lula]

Manifestations in defense of the unity of Spain on Saturday 30 in many Spanish cities.

Referéndum Cataluña 1-O: Gritos de "Puigdemont, a prisión" en la marcha de miles de personas en Barcelona contra el 1-O | EL MUNDO

Manifestaciones por la unidad de España en Madrid y otras ciudades, Telediario - RTVE.es A la Carta

Barcelona

https://www.elconfidencial.com/espa...n-barcelona-unidad-espana-referendum_1452751/

 

[AdmirerUS]

I also ask that forum members in Spain continue to send us sources to check out on the Catalonian issue. I find news coverage in the US to be slanted and the info shared here provides a more robust coverage of issues. I care far more about Spain than I did before I joined the Forums and I think that's a good thing?

 

[CSENYC]

Doesn't King Felipe know that saying things that are highly partisan, when your country is in crisis, is a good way to result in the monarchy being abolished, and that staying totally neutral and quiet is sometimes the best approach?

Maybe the former king of Greece could remind him.

 

[cepe]

He is a constitutional monarch therefore he speaks for the government.

He may, behind the scenes, have tried for an approach which spoke of the need for dialogue.

However, according to the rule of law in Spain (the Constitution) the referendum was illegal. So there was no way he could say it was ok.

And there is more to this than meets the eye of the outsider (like me). I have had overload of referenddi in the UK and I heard all the arguments. But Catalonia (like Scotland) would be on its own - not a member of a stable country, not a member of the EU, no currency.......

Scotland were asked and said no. It is a pity that even asking the question is not allowed by the constitution of Spain.

I feel that it is going to be very painful for the people of Spain.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Catalonian president attacks Spanish king for 'ignoring his people' after independence vote in televised speech
Catalonian president attacks Spanish king for 'ignoring his people' after independence vote | The Independent

“With this attitude you have disappointed many Catalans who held you in esteem. The constitution gives you a role as a moderator which you have failed to use.”

Puigdemont criticised the King both for echoing the government’s views and for failing to refer to the hundreds of injured during heavy-handed police actions against a illegal pro-independence referendum in Catalonia over the weekend.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Pro-Spain Catalonians make their voices heard