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  #1361  
Old 01-22-2018, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by lula View Post

But this week the Princess of Girona Foundation has announced its prize-winning election calendar and that the King and Queen will hand out the prizes in Girona in June as they do every year.
Wasn’t there some issue with Princess of Girona Foundation? Or maybe I’m confusing things with some other event.
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  #1362  
Old 02-23-2018, 03:05 PM
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Well this may be come good news for both the monarchy and the nation of Spain as a whole, there has been a poll showing that support for independence has declined with 53.9% of Catalonians against independence and only 40.8% really supporting independence in the autonomous region of Catalonia. Still Madrid and Barcelona have some talking to do in my opinion, Spain really should consider going from a unitary state to a federal state in my opinion but both the People's Party and the Citizens Party have me slightly worried. Let's just face it the People's Party is rather arrogant and they would never really agree to a federal state in Spain IMO plus the reason why I'm worried about the Citizens Party is because they do support the idea of having a referendum on the Spanish monarchy if they come to power. But enough of my opinion, what do you guys think?

-Frozen Royalist

Article showing the opinion poll: https://www.thelocal.es/20180223/the...dence-movement
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  #1363  
Old 03-05-2018, 03:58 PM
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Leonor, Princess of Asturias is of the House of Bourbon (Borbon). When she marries, does her husband change his surname to Borbon? Or does Leonor take her husband's name?

When Leonor becomes the Queen Regnant, will the Royal House remain Bourbon (Borbon) or will it change to the surname of her husband?
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  #1364  
Old 03-05-2018, 04:02 PM
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Typically in Spanish culture the wife retains her own name but any children would be _________ y____________. For example Felipe is Borbon y Grecia and Leonor is Borbon y Ortiz. I'm guessing that he'd retain his own surname.
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  #1365  
Old 03-05-2018, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by TLLK View Post
Typically in Spanish culture the wife retains her own name but any children would be _________ y____________. For example Felipe is Borbon y Grecia and Leonor is Borbon y Ortiz. I'm guessing that he'd retain his own surname.
But they can change the Order of the Names so that the mother's name come's first and then the father's name. This was done by the present Duke of Alba for example. Perhaps this would also be done for Leonor'sd children so that they remain de Bórbon.
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  #1366  
Old 03-05-2018, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
But they can change the Order of the Names so that the mother's name come's first and then the father's name. This was done by the present Duke of Alba for example. Perhaps this would also be done for Leonor'sd children so that they remain de Bórbon.
I was wondering about that. However, as you point out Spanish nobility (for whom a female heiress is not a recent phenomenon) already found a way to deal with it by changing the order of surnames. In the case of the deceased Duchess of Alba not only her eldest but also her third son goes by 'maternal' y 'paternal' instead of the other way around.
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  #1367  
Old 03-25-2018, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Update on Puigdemont: https://jyllands-posten.dk/indland/E...r-til-danmark/

Puigdemont will arrive in DK tomorrow, Monday and stay until Tuesday.

At present there is a Spanish warrant on his arrest, but a European warrant for his arrest was rescinded in December, which means he can travel freely outside Spanish territory as it is now.
(I assume that was as long as he stayed in Belgium.) - But now he's going to another country so the prosecution is Spain will ask the Supreme Court to issue an international warrant and ask Denmark to arrest and hand him over to the Spanish authorities.

- So can the Supreme Court in Spain issue such a warrant within basically 24 hours? - After which he must be expected to have left DK again?
If so, I wonder if he will even leave Belgium.

There has been no official government stance on such a situation, but the individual government parties are not particularly keen on him, as you can read in the previous post.
I can't see how Denmark can refuse such a warrant under these circumstances.
The only way to avoid that would be to deny him entry.

What will happen in Spain should Puigdemont be arrested and handed over to Spain?
After issuing new warrants on Friday, Puigdemont has been arrested in Germany - we'll see what happens now, Spain will most likely ask for extradition.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-german-police
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  #1368  
Old 03-26-2018, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
But they can change the Order of the Names so that the mother's name come's first and then the father's name. This was done by the present Duke of Alba for example. Perhaps this would also be done for Leonor'sd children so that they remain de Bórbon.
In Spain, these things are much easier... A couple may decide between them the order of names for their children. My friends recently decided that their kids names will maternal then paternal because the husband's name is too common (Gonzlez) while hers is not and she has no brothers who may pass on the name (Solares). But I think once you choose an order for one kid, it applies to all your kids. I like this egalitarian law that equally benefits noblewomen and non-titled folks.
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  #1369  
Old 03-26-2018, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
Leonor, Princess of Asturias is of the House of Bourbon (Borbon). When she marries, does her husband change his surname to Borbon? Or does Leonor take her husband's name?

When Leonor becomes the Queen Regnant, will the Royal House remain Bourbon (Borbon) or will it change to the surname of her husband?
In Portugal, the descendants of Queen Maria II retained the name Braganza ( in Portuguese, Bragança), although they were referred tio overseas as Braganza Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. A similar example are the Habsburg-Lorraine (Habsburg-Lothringen) in Austria. who were often referred to only as Habsburg..

We don’t know the names that Leonor’s children will bear, but my guess is that, if she marries another royal or a high ranking aristocrat, a compound name will be adopted for the dynasty. For example, if she married Prince Gabriel of Belgium, their children and their descendants could use the name Bourbon Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (Borbón Sajonia Coburgo y Gotha ? ) as in the Portuguese precedent. If, however, Leonor marries a commoner, I suspect her children will retain the family name Bourbon (by inverting the order of the maternal and paternal names as explained before and dropping the paternal name in the next generation ). I don’t know if there is a precedent for dropping the paternal name in Spanish royal history though.

The easiest solution of course would be for Leonor to marry another Bourbon as Queen Isabel II did.
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  #1370  
Old 03-26-2018, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
In Portugal, the descendants of Queen Maria II retained the name Braganza ( in Portuguese, Bragança), although they were referred tio overseas as Braganza Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.
When family names existed in the royal house of Portugal, nearly all consorts' family names became part of the surnames of their descendants. For instance, according to Parliament, the surname of King Carlos I (then Prince Carlos Fernando) was "de Bragança Saboya Bourbon Saxe-Coburgo Gotha":

Quote:
CORTES GERAES

SESSÃO SOLEMINE DO RECONHECIMENTO DO SERENISSIMO PRINCIPE REAL O SENHOR D. CARLOS FERNANDO

COMO SUCCESSOR DESTE REINO, CELEBRADA AOS 11 DE FEVEREIRO DE 1864

Reunidos pelas onze horas da manhã do dia de hoje n'este palacio, na sala das sessões da camara electiva, os dignos pares do reino e os senhores deputados da nação portugueza, segundo o disposto no artigo 1.o da carta de lei de 28 de janeiro do corrente anno, tomou a cadeira da presidencia o ex.o sr. conde de Castro, vice-presidente da camara hereditaria, e em observancia do artigo 2.o da mencionada carta de lei, designou para primeiro secretario o digno par do reino, conde de Peniche, e para segundo secretario o sr. deputado, Miguel Osorio Cabral, e tendo estes occupado os seus respectivos logares, declarou constituida a mesa das côrtes geraes e aberta a sessão. Feita a chamada pelo digno par secretario, verificou-se existirem na sala 66 dignos pares e 117 srs. deputados. O digno par secretario fez leitura dos autos do nascimento e baptismo do Serenissimo Principe Real o Senhor D. Carlos Fernando. Terminada a dita leitura, o ex.o sr. presidente, em voz alta e intelligível disse: «As côrtes geraes da nação portugueza reconhecem por successor do throno d'este reino, na conformidade do artigo 15.o § 3.o da carta constitucional da monarchia, a Sua Alteza Real o Principe D. Carlos, Fernando, Luiz, Maria, Victor, Miguel, Rafael, Gabriel, Gonzaga, Xavier, Francisco de Assis, José, Simão, de Bragança, Saboya, Bourbon, Saxe-Coburgo, Gotha, filho legitimo de Suas Magestades o Rei de Portugal e Algarves o Senhor D. Luiz I e a Rainha a Senhora D. Maria Pia de Saboya, sua augusta esposa?» […]


Quote:
(Borbón Sajonia Coburgo y Gotha ? )
The Belgian royal family apparently uses Saxe-Coburg and not Saxe-Coburg and Gotha as their family name. King Leopold I is referred to as Leopold of Saxe-Coburg in the Belgian Constitution and in a royal decree, and the website of the Belgian royal family uses "House of Saxe-Coburg".

Quote:
The constitutional powers of the King are hereditary through the direct, natural and legitimate descent from H.M. Leopold, George, Christian, Frederick of Saxe-Coburg, by order of primogeniture.

http://www.lachambre.be/kvvcr/pdf_se...GrondwetUK.pdf

Art. 4. Les Princes et Princesses, issus de la descendance directe de Sa Majesté Léopold, Georges, Chrétien, Frédéric de Saxe-Cobourg qui ne sont pas visés par les articles 1er à 3, portent à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils le portent, de leur nom de famille, les titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance.

Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

House of Saxe-Coburg

In the 19th century, this branch acquired a real European dimension. Descendants of Francis, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld (father of King Leopold I) who died in 1806, ascended to the thrones of Belgium, Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Portugal and Bulgaria. Thanks to his family ties (he was in particular the uncle and mentor of Queen Victoria of Great Britain), and as Head of State of a neutral country, King Leopold I exerted great influence on diplomacy in Europe from 1831 to 1865. He was one of the most respected statesmen of his age, known as the “Nestor of Europe.”

https://www.monarchie.be/en/royal-fa...of-the-dynasty
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  #1371  
Old 03-26-2018, 09:54 AM
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My apologies here but as interesting as it is about how active dynasties use their names and about various foundations in the name of members of the Spanish Royal Family but it seems to me we're not really on topic here at the moment in my opinion.

With the arrest of Puigdemont and the possible upcoming chaos in Catalonia, how do we see this affecting the Spanish monarchy and all of Spain itself of course?

The Citizens Party, known as Ciudadanos in Spanish, is an increasingly popular party in Spain that advocates for Spanish Unionism but at the same time a good portion of the leadership of the party advocates for a referendum on the monarchy and said advocators are republicans themselves. So what do Spanish monarchists do if they come to power?

Then of course there are the recent incidents with lese-majeste in the country involving a rather "charming" rapper who supported groups that are known for extreme violence along with defaming the royal family itself. Are more Spaniards coming in defense of this man advocating for a republic or are people just seeing this guy as just a man out of his mind?

Also there are the continuing scandals involving the king's sister with her being barred from moving to Portugal, could this affect the monarchy's popularity?

Once again I apologize for being a buzzkill and interrupting the recent discussions here but I feel that this needs to be discussed here.

-Frozen Royalist
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  #1372  
Old 03-26-2018, 11:03 AM
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1- The detention of Puigdemont is a judicial issue, and it will be the justice who decides.

Now the independentists are frustrated, they can not agree among themselves to form a government, because on the one hand, continuing to challenge legality will only bring them more problems and on the other hand they can not recognize that they deceived people. For the moment, they preferred to continue attacking the Spanish state, because otherwise the mass would turn against them.

2 - Ciudadanos are not more republican than the PSOE, who have been supporting monarchy for 40 years. In Spain it is not populist to declare itself a monarchist, but as long as the monarchy functions only the radical left and the pro-independence will openly oppose the monarchy.

For example, now Podemos is losing positions in the polls, and the attacks on the monarchy allow them to keep the votes of the most republican ... in the previous elections, they worried about covering up their republicanism so as not to lose the moderate votes that only wanted social changes.

The ineptitude of Spanish politicians in many aspects and their inability to generate consensus, only reinforces the idea that this country is better with a Monarchy.

3 - The rapper is praised by his people, the populists of Podemos and the independentists ... who also manipulate reality to attack the Monarchy. But the lyrics of his songs have been published in numerous media, in which he wants the members of the Royal Family and numerous people to be murdered, kidnapped or suffer a terrorist attack. The reality is that his biggest condemnation is not for attacking the Monarchy, but for attacking a private person who denounced him.

4- The gossip and absurd stories about Cristina are that ... they do not have any relevance. People are more worried about the judicial situation of Urdangarín.
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  #1373  
Old 03-26-2018, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Frozen Royalist View Post
My apologies here but as interesting as it is about how active dynasties use their names and about various foundations in the name of members of the Spanish Royal Family but it seems to me we're not really on topic here at the moment in my opinion.

With the arrest of Puigdemont and the possible upcoming chaos in Catalonia, how do we see this affecting the Spanish monarchy and all of Spain itself of course?

-Frozen Royalist
I think that’s a question that will take years to answer. IMO chaos or unrest, especially if it goes on for a long period of time, is never good for government institutions, including monarchy, because by definition the situations it leads to are unpredictable. If you’re a monarch of a prosperous, stable country you and your advisors, in consultation with, (and more likely under the direction of), the elected arms of government, can come up with a medium to long term plan for the institution. And then things should be ok as long as you don’t over step and stick to the plan.
OTOH, can anyone confidently predict what the situation in Spain will be six months from now, let alone a year, five years, ten years and so on? I think all the Royal House can do under these circumstances is come up with some sort of plan, recognize there are many things forthcoming completely beyond its control and hope for the best. I think there are a few things the SRF could be doing better to optimize its longer term viability, but I also recognize they could do everything perfectly and the political scene could shift however many years from now and the institution could suddenly be in real danger.
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  #1374  
Old 03-26-2018, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by moby View Post
In Spain, these things are much easier... A couple may decide between them the order of names for their children. My friends recently decided that their kids names will maternal then paternal because the husband's name is too common (Gonzlez) while hers is not and she has no brothers who may pass on the name (Solares). But I think once you choose an order for one kid, it applies to all your kids. I like this egalitarian law that equally benefits noblewomen and non-titled folks.
The Duchess of Alba's children have different orders. The eldest and third so have maternal then paternal and al others the other way around.
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  #1375  
Old 03-27-2018, 07:54 AM
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I think their order of surnames were not decided using the Spanish gender equality law which allowed parents to pick the order of names that has to be the same for all children (law implemented since 1990s) but through some legal process.
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  #1376  
Old 03-28-2018, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by lula View Post
1- The detention of Puigdemont is a judicial issue, and it will be the justice who decides.

Now the independentists are frustrated, they can not agree among themselves to form a government, because on the one hand, continuing to challenge legality will only bring them more problems and on the other hand they can not recognize that they deceived people. For the moment, they preferred to continue attacking the Spanish state, because otherwise the mass would turn against them.
Germany got caught in a bad position here, there is lots of discussion about what happens next, in German law there is no 'treason' in the way there is in Spanish law, it has to be directly related to violence of the person accused what is not the case with Puigdemont.

Since Merkel will comply with the Spanish request, it has to be on the basis of 'fraud'.
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  #1377  
Old 03-28-2018, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Germany got caught in a bad position here, there is lots of discussion about what happens next, in German law there is no 'treason' in the way there is in Spanish law, it has to be directly related to violence of the person accused what is not the case with Puigdemont.

Since Merkel will comply with the Spanish request, it has to be on the basis of 'fraud'.
Merkel has no role here. It is the German justice system which has a role.
The European Arrest Warrant leaves no room for a judgement on the content. This because in the European Union all memberstates have as starting point that they are all democracies with the rule of law. Otherwise an European Arrest Warrant issued by a German, or an Italian, or a Swedish judge would be subjected to interpretation as well by a fellow EU-state and that is not how it works.
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  #1378  
Old 03-28-2018, 05:12 AM
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Duke, the report of the Spanish judge does say that there was violence.

The German judge will make a decision based on the 70-page brief and the evidence provided by the Spanish judge. These days I have read several pieces of information in the foreign press, including the German one, and many times they are based on a rather partial account of everything that happened, coming from the publicity and agitation of independentists social networks.

For the foreign press there is only the day of the illegal referendum ... for the Spanish judge there are years of preparation, illegal activities with public money, repeated disobedience to judicial decisions and Spanish and Catalan laws, mobilization of masses of people, orders to the Catalan police to break the law, illegal investigation of members of the opposition, pointing out the opponents of independence ...

They are judged responsible for organizing and encouraging all that ... they controlled a police force of thousands of armed policemen who were ordered not to comply with their obligation, and those who tried to arm as an army (acquisition of weapons that was stopped by the Spanish government). They illegally financed the associations that gathered people to stop compliance with judicial decisions.

Today a newspaper publishes how the Civil Guard has collected hundreds of violent actions ... the launching of explosive devices, intimidation of the Spanish police and their families, cuts of roads and train tracks, threatening graffiti and attacks on nonindpeendentist political groups... and the inaction of the Catalan police by order of their leaders. There are many causes open in different courts for all these things.

One of the most scandalous cases was the harassment of a judicial commission days before the referendum. The associations financed by them were concentrated in the door of the building where the judicial commission was doing its work, the indepententist politicians encouraged them not to move. The judicial commission was locked up for hours and had to leave by the roof of the building ... all before the inaction of the Catalan police. The Civil Guard cars that participate in the commission were destroyed and the weapons that were inside were stolen.

They did not directly take a gun or beat anyone ... but they are the culprits and responsible for the mobilization of a police force and a human mass to coerce and avoid complying with court rulings. And all this is reflected in their own agendas (including every illegal step and when it was interesting or not that the streets were shaking), in recordings ordered by the judges, and in documentation boxes that the Spanish police prevented the Catalan police from burning.

At this moment, the judge and his family are victims of harassment and threats from the independentists. Probably his wife will have to leave her job in Barcelona and go to Madrid, so that they can maintain their security.

There is a very radical sector of the independence movement, which all of Spain and more the Catalan politicians knew existed, managed to appease them by convincing them that they would be independent, but as their expectations have been frustrated, violence has increased... at the same time the pro-independence politicians have always been pressured by this radical mass, they encouraged it and now they can come back against them.
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  #1379  
Old 03-28-2018, 05:20 AM
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Merkel has no role here. It is the German justice system which has a role.
The European Arrest Warrant leaves no room for a judgement on the content. This because in the European Union all memberstates have as starting point that they are all democracies with the rule of law. Otherwise an European Arrest Warrant issued by a German, or an Italian, or a Swedish judge would be subjected to interpretation as well by a fellow EU-state and that is not how it works.
Yes German judges will decide but even though there is no jugdement on the content, the charge must comply with German law what is not the case with 'rebellion':

Under Article 81 of the German Criminal Code, a crime similar to that of rebellion in Spain exists as “high treason”. However, it must be linked to a violent act.
Legal analysts believe that could make extradition problematic – but not to the extent that a German court will refuse Spain’s request altogether.
Therefore it is likely that Puigdemont would be extradited for the misuse of public funds what is an equal criminal offence in Germany.
http://www.euronews.com/2018/03/26/c...-than-belgium-
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  #1380  
Old 03-30-2018, 07:30 AM
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Henar Ortiz, the megamouth aunt of Queen Letizia has been tweeting her opinions yet again :whistling

https://www.bekia.es/realeza/noticia...independencia/

https://translate.google.com/transla...dependencia%2F
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