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  #1341  
Old 12-22-2017, 04:22 AM
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It was very difficult in two months, they could change what the independentists have taken to get 40 years and millions of euros in public money.

The Catalan society is still split in half, the separatists win again in seats in Parliament, but not in votes, for an electoral law that they have never wanted to change (in most of the Spanish regions have changed) because it favors them.

But for the first time a national political and Constitutionalist party, Ciudadanos, has won the elections in Catalonia.

These months the independentists have continued in their bubble and have exploited their role as victims ... but now they will definitely have to face the results of their actions.

Several of their deputies are in jail or fled from justice and can not vote. They continue in their attempt to extort the Spanish state, without understanding that justice will continue with its work independently of politics.

Catalan policy will remain blocked in that loop without solving the real problems of citizens, and its economic crisis with the flight of companies, the loss of employment and tourism will continue.

We will see how long it takes for the Catalans to vote again.
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  #1342  
Old 12-22-2017, 05:21 AM
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I find it interesting that Puidgemont referred to the elections yesterday as a victory of the "Catalan republic" over the "Spanish monarchy". Likewise, several separatist politicians who spoke yesterday on Spanish TV consistently referred to the unionist camp as the "monarchist bloc", which is a term BTW that is also used by the non-separatist, but nevertheless pro-Republic party Podemos.

In other words, it seems to me that the separatists are now framing the issue in Catalonia not only as a contest between independentists and unionists, but also as a choice between a republic and the continuation of the monarchy, The monarchy therefore has become a central issue in the Catalan debate on par with the union properly, which is now seen as inherently associated with the monarchy, especially after King Felipe's televised speech earlier this year.
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  #1343  
Old 12-22-2017, 05:47 AM
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There has no doubt always been a considerable republican sentiment against the monarchy in the Catalan independence movement.
That's partly logic, because an independent Catalonia can't have the Spanish King as head of state, that would sort of defeat the purpose. So by necessity the movement would have to be republican.

Another things is that loyalty to the King almost also means loyalty to the union so to speak with the rest Spain.
So per definition monarchists are also anti-independence.

The third thing is that the independence movement needs to put a face on the opposition. Politicians come and go, even if the policy in regards to Catalonia remains more or less the same. But the King stay. So the King is a logic figure to direct the antagonism against.

And finally there is the fact that the King actually did speak against the independence movement, and in no uncertain terms.
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  #1344  
Old 12-22-2017, 05:48 AM
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The Catalan separatists have been attacking the Monarchy for years, it's nothing new. The monarchy is an excuse, they attack the Monarchy as a symbol of the State, because they believe that without the Monarchy their victory would be easier. The King is a more potent symbol than any politician.

It is also an attempt to bring the republican vote of Podemos that can give them the majority. Nor is it a secret of Podemos wants the Republic, and that attacks the monarchy or hides its attacks against it, according to its electoral interests. Their results in Catalonia have been bad, and their support in the rest of Spain is decreasing ... so if it suits them they will hide their attacks on the Monarchy again.
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  #1345  
Old 12-22-2017, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
There has no doubt always been a considerable republican sentiment against the monarchy in the Catalan independence movement.
That's partly logic, because an independent Catalonia can't have the Spanish King as head of state, that would sort of defeat the purpose. So by necessity the movement would have to be republican.

Another things is that loyalty to the King almost also means loyalty to the union so to speak with the rest Spain.
So per definition monarchists are also anti-independence.

The third thing is that the independence movement needs to put a face on the opposition. Politicians come and go, even if the policy in regards to Catalonia remains more or less the same. But the King stay. So the King is a logic figure to direct the antagonism against.

And finally there is the fact that the King actually did speak against the independence movement, and in no uncertain terms.
Scottish nationalism, however, has chosen a different approach. At least under Alex Salmond and now under Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP has said that an independent Scotland would remain a Kingdom in personal union with the monarch of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The most likely explanation is that, given QEIi's popularity i, the nationalists figured out it would be easier to win a referendum on independence if they didn't risk simultaneously antagonizing the monarchist electorate in the process.
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  #1346  
Old 12-22-2017, 07:02 AM
eya eya is offline
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What 10 of the Catalan aristocrats saying about the future of Catalonia and analyze the possible reform of the Constitution and the role of King Felipe .

http://www.revistavanityfair.es/real...iliarios/27789

https://translate.googleusercontent....16v-rPLuqJB2PA
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  #1347  
Old 12-22-2017, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Scottish nationalism, however, has chosen a different approach. At least under Alex Salmond and now under Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP has said that an independent Scotland would remain a Kingdom in personal union with the monarch of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The most likely explanation is that, given QEIi's popularity i, the nationalists figured out it would be easier to win a referendum on independence if they didn't risk simultaneously antagonizing the monarchist electorate in the process.
That's no doubt correct.

It makes you wonder what will happen when Charles becomes king, will they change their stance?
That's of course off topic in this tread.
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  #1348  
Old 12-22-2017, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Scottish nationalism, however, has chosen a different approach. At least under Alex Salmond and now under Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP has said that an independent Scotland would remain a Kingdom in personal union with the monarch of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The most likely explanation is that, given QEIi's popularity i, the nationalists figured out it would be easier to win a referendum on independence if they didn't risk simultaneously antagonizing the monarchist electorate in the process.
Scotland and England were separate countries with a shared monarch for a hundred years before they became one united country, and QEII is the Queen of sixteen different independent countries, so there's a precedent there. If she can be Queen if the UK, Queen of Australia, Queen of Canada, etc, why not have her be Queen of Scotland separate from the rest of the UK? At least in order to gain independence.

Spain's a bit different - while the country may have formed through the union of several kingdoms, Catalonia has a long history of being something distinct within something larger (be it Spain or Aragon), and King Felipe only reigns over one realm (Spain). The precedent for a Commonwealth of Realms isn't there, so there's more of a link between Republicanism and Independence in Catalonia than in Scotland.
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  #1349  
Old 01-14-2018, 09:42 PM
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Personally I think what the Kingdom of Spain needs is go from being a unitary state to a federal state just as the United Kingdom needs, I recommend Swiss style federalism.

Is anyone actually concerned about the Citizens Party, the reason I ask is because they have the highest approval ratings in the opinion polls for the next Spanish election in 2020. For those of you who don't know the Citizens Party does consider itself a republican party as well as a post-nationalist organization; this means that the Citizens Party would like to see a Third Spanish Republic that would rather be a global state in favor of supernationalism, as in something like a United States of Europe. So once again what do you think of the possibility of a Citizens Party Spain?

-Frozen Royalist
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  #1350  
Old 01-20-2018, 08:35 AM
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A little update on the Catalan issue: Politikere melder fra til Puigdemont: - Han har begået højforræderi - TV 2

As you probably know the leader of the Catalan separatists, Carles Puigdemont, is currently living in exile in Belgium.
Tuesday he will leave his exile for the first time to attend a debate a Copenhagen University.
It is one of the two Faeroese members of the Danish Parliament, who has invited Puigdemont to also visit the Parliament.

No members of the three Danish government parties will meet Puigdmont.
Henrik Dahl from Liberal Alliance says: "No, I won't (meet him). The Danish state communicate with the Spanish government in Madrid. He has committed high-treason".

Michael Aastrup Jensen from the Liberals says: "No. I'm not. If I did I would interfere with Spanish (domestic) affairs. To be honest I don't think we from the Danish Parliament should do that".

Naser Khader from the Conservatives says he hasn't got time.

These are the foreign affairs spokesmen from the government parties and they are the ones who would normally meet an opposition leader of a foreign country.
The various MP's have fairly free hands in inviting visitors to the Parliament, also controversial persons.
There is a considerable separatist movement on the Faeroe Islands, which is no doubt why the Faeroese member invited Puigdemont. But they have problems really selling the message of independence. Because the Danish governments have made it clear that the Faeroe Islands can have independence any time they want, provided there is a very clear majority. And the transition period will be max 4 years, after that the Faeroe Islands are to be considered a foreign country and Denmark will have no obligations in regards to upholding sovereignty, providing advanced hospital care, and education above high school level and so on for Faeroese citizens.
- That is not particularly palatable to the Faeroese...

It seems pretty clear there is no international warrant out for Puigdemont or that he must enjoy some kind of immunity supplied by the Belgian state? Also outside Belgium?

It will be interesting to see if Puigdemont will meet the Chairman of the Parliament or any members of the Presidium. I.e. second, third and so on chairmen.
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  #1351  
Old 01-21-2018, 11:46 AM
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Update on Puigdemont: https://jyllands-posten.dk/indland/E...r-til-danmark/

Puigdemont will arrive in DK tomorrow, Monday and stay until Tuesday.

At present there is a Spanish warrant on his arrest, but a European warrant for his arrest was rescinded in December, which means he can travel freely outside Spanish territory as it is now.
(I assume that was as long as he stayed in Belgium.) - But now he's going to another country so the prosecution is Spain will ask the Supreme Court to issue an international warrant and ask Denmark to arrest and hand him over to the Spanish authorities.

- So can the Supreme Court in Spain issue such a warrant within basically 24 hours? - After which he must be expected to have left DK again?
If so, I wonder if he will even leave Belgium.

There has been no official government stance on such a situation, but the individual government parties are not particularly keen on him, as you can read in the previous post.
I can't see how Denmark can refuse such a warrant under these circumstances.
The only way to avoid that would be to deny him entry.

What will happen in Spain should Puigdemont be arrested and handed over to Spain?
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  #1352  
Old 01-21-2018, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Update on Puigdemont: https://jyllands-posten.dk/indland/E...r-til-danmark/

Puigdemont will arrive in DK tomorrow, Monday and stay until Tuesday.

At present there is a Spanish warrant on his arrest, but a European warrant for his arrest was rescinded in December, which means he can travel freely outside Spanish territory as it is now.
(I assume that was as long as he stayed in Belgium.) - But now he's going to another country so the prosecution is Spain will ask the Supreme Court to issue an international warrant and ask Denmark to arrest and hand him over to the Spanish authorities.

- So can the Supreme Court in Spain issue such a warrant within basically 24 hours? - After which he must be expected to have left DK again?
If so, I wonder if he will even leave Belgium.

There has been no official government stance on such a situation, but the individual government parties are not particularly keen on him, as you can read in the previous post.
I can't see how Denmark can refuse such a warrant under these circumstances.
The only way to avoid that would be to deny him entry.

What will happen in Spain should Puigdemont be arrested and handed over to Spain?
As much as I believe in self-determination I think that Puigdemont should be arrested for trying to tear apart a nation that is already having some issues. Did he honestly think that this would end well for anybody? Ugh, I really do hate the separatist movements in Europe.

-Frozen Royalist
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  #1353  
Old 01-21-2018, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Frozen Royalist View Post
As much as I believe in self-determination I think that Puigdemont should be arrested for trying to tear apart a nation that is already having some issues. Did he honestly think that this would end well for anybody? Ugh, I really do hate the separatist movements in Europe.

-Frozen Royalist
Puidgdemont should be on trial for high treason!!Nada less.
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  #1354  
Old 01-21-2018, 07:18 PM
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More on Puigdemont. Now legal experts have been asked to comment on what would happen should Spain issue a European warrant (under Schengen) on his arrest.

Det er tvivlsomt, om Puigdemont kan udleveres fra Danmark til Spanien, mener ekspert - TV 2

https://jyllands-posten.dk/indland/E...ekspraesident/

Should the Spanish Supreme Court issue such a warrant, it will be in Denmark within minutes. And should Puigdemont be in Denmark or enter Denmark, he will be arrested.

He will then be taken to court where he will be placed in custody for a period of up to four weeks, while the Spanish prosecution supply details for him being handed over to the Spanish authorities.
It is then up to the Spanish prosecution to make a case for such a deportation. - And that may be tricky.
There is a list with 32 crimes that merit an immediate extradition and the crime has to carry a sentence of minimum one year on Spain.

While he will no doubt face more than a year in prison, his crime may not be on the list, so it's also a question of whether it's a crime in Denmark. You usually don't extradite people for something that is not considered a crime in your own country.

Because, agitating for independence isn't really against the law in Denmark as such. And calling for a referendum sure isn't, in fact that's how it's supposed to be. In reality there is little legislation about that in Denmark.
It is simply assumed that if a part of Denmark wish to gain independence, there will be a referendum about it. The details of such a referendum are very specific though.
So Spain will have to convince a Danish court that Puigdemont has attempted a kind of coup de etat and as such must face trial.
And since Spain hasn't really succeeded in demanding him extradited from Belgium on similar grounds, that may be a problem.

- So a warrant would IMO be more of a way to harass him and force him to stay in Belgium.
It is also IMO an open question as to whether Spain really wants to put him on trial - at least right now - or would be more interested in the whole thing calming down a bit more.

The far left Unity List here in DK, has said that he should not be extradited to Spain in case of a warrant. (That's really up to the court to decide but of course the judge may by accident "overhear" what the political will is...)
No other parties have said anything yet, and since there is no situation yet, nor has the government.
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  #1355  
Old 01-22-2018, 04:36 AM
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This is a forum about the future of the Spanish Monarchy, not about the absurdities of Puigdemont... that will unfortunately lengthen in time. Or he will be a fugitive all his life, or if he returns to Spain his destiny will be prison ...

Muhler, in Spain, it is not illegal to organize a referendum, as long as it is organized within the laws. Organizing it illegally and illegally obtaining data from citizens is obviously illegal.
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  #1356  
Old 01-22-2018, 08:50 AM
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Thanks for your reply, Lula.

Yes, I realize that, but the Catalonian issue is regrettably very much about the future of the Spanish monarchy. Hence the reason why I posted.
That also includes what happens to Puigdemont - who is now in Denmark.

It would IMO be unfortunate should Puigdemont be extradited to Spain now.
Much better to wait after the next general election and after a possible new proper and legally correct referendum in Catalonia.

--------

ADDED: https://jyllands-posten.dk/internati...oldelsesordre/

The Spanish Supreme Court will not issue an international warrant.
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  #1357  
Old 01-22-2018, 11:44 AM
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The Spanish monarchy is more secure than the Dutch or Belgian monarchy. The very same Catalonian question made the Spaniards rally around the King. It has given the new King the platform to raise his profile and set a footprint in the machinery of state. Thanks to Puigdemont c.s.
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  #1358  
Old 01-22-2018, 12:09 PM
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Quite frankly, the agitation that has taken place in the Spanish region of Catalonia as of late has been beyond any reasonable campaign for a cause, even one as divisive as independence, and even if they had succeeded in detaching Catalonia from Spain, I think the result would had been a more secure Spanish monarchy. A monarchy that is not at the heart of such a conflict would serve as a rallying point for every Spaniard who would wish to solidify their country against any further existential threats.
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  #1359  
Old 01-22-2018, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Spanish monarchy is more secure than the Dutch or Belgian monarchy. The very same Catalonian question made the Spaniards rally around the King. It has given the new King the platform to raise his profile and set a footprint in the machinery of state. Thanks to Puigdemont c.s.
That seems like a very optimistic take on things so early in the process. The portion of the Spanish population that has rallied around the King - for now - was never the problem in the first place.

With his speech Felipe has irrevocably tied the Spanish monarchy to the issue of Catalan independence. It was quite a political speech and, as all politicians know, even the most inspiring rhetoric needs to be followed by hard work and then ideally a victory. I think it would be hard to describe the results of the second Catalan vote as anything other than a loss for both Rajoy and the King.

When were Felipe and Letizia last in Catalonia? Are there any plans for them to return? Felipe did make it clear Catalonia is part of Spain and he is their King, after all. If the monarchy is truly such an effective rallying point then that’s where they should be spending a lot of time, making a point of showing the people there what a valued part of Spain they are.
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  #1360  
Old 01-22-2018, 05:41 PM
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King Felipe made a purely Constitutional speech, not a political one ... the laws are the same for everyone regardless of political ideology.

Catalonia was the Spanish region that most visited the King in 2017.

Catalonia is in an open electoral process, and generally the Head of State never visits regions in these circumstances, so that his presence is not understood as in favor or against any political option.

But this week the Princess of Girona Foundation has announced its prize-winning election calendar and that the King and Queen will hand out the prizes in Girona in June as they do every year.
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