Future and Popularity of the Spanish Monarchy

[moby]

highpriestess, thank you for the article! The writer articulated well what I've long observed in the Catalonian situation--that they seem to have an overblown sense of their importance and that it is hard to find a secessionist group that succeeded without violence and sacrifice involved. Plus it is fascinating that he made a fair comment about Palestine when he used to be the Israeli FM, such a great article.

[highpriestess]

You're welcome. Lots of interesting articles in La Vanguardia today. Here is one columnist's comment about Felipe's speech. He opined that Felipe's speech curtailed international support for Catalonia.

"The United States has finally made a definite statement. The note from Secretary of State Rex Tillersonel October 12 clears any ambiguity. Canada's Justine Trudeau has also ruled. The president of Mexico, Enrique Peña Nietohas said that he would never recognize an independent Catalonia. The King's speech had its flaws, but it has had its effects. There are no relevant international supports. There are no firm mediation offers. All that is left is the intoxications of the powerful Kremlin-funded Russia Today (RT) propaganda channel and officially classified in Moscow as a strategic Russian state structure. Catalonia is becoming ammunition for the destabilization maneuvers of the European Union. Was Vladimir Putinthe secret hope of the strategists of sovereignty? Hard to believe, since their contacts were going in another direction. Someone has been wrong on the invisible committee of sovereignty. Someone has miscalculated possible supports. Maybe someone has cheated them. Secretary of State Tillerson's note is conclusive."

Atrapados en el estadio

Reports on the National Day said that many guests/reporters congratulated Felipe for his speech. The number of guests at this year's reception was a record 1500 because more people wanted to show support for the crown. Those guests include many prominent businessmen from Catalonia.

According to another article, almost 600 companies have fled Catalonia in just 10 days.

[Duke of Marmalade]

Puigdemont continues his strategy to stall ...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-defying-spain

In a letter to Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, Puigdemont called for dialogue and a face-to-face meeting as soon as possible as he again claimed his government’s mandate to declare a republic. The reply was not the clear yes or no reply that Rajoy had demanded by 10 a.m. on Monday to clarify whether he had in fact declared independence in a speech to the Catalan parliament last week.

Now Rajoy has the choice to agree to dialogue or to remain firm and start the process of taking away the autonomous status or he decides to play ping pong and sets another ultimatum.

[M. Payton]

I am just reading this thread as I do not have much to offer in the way of knowing much about what is going on for I like learning and this is what I am currently doing here, yet this comment hit home with me and my gov about leaders playing ping pong with the laws of the country and how they make decisions.......I sincerely hope the PM of Spain stands firm in his decision of 10am today......a former president of this country played the game of ping pong with Syria and lost......so I hope this does not happen in Spain, we need strong leaders with conviction and intelligence to govern our countries in this day and age of terror and unknown happenings.

[Duke of Marmalade]

Catalan president Carles Puigdemont ignores Madrid's ultimatum
Puigdemont refuses to clarify whether he has actually declared independence and reiterates his call for talks

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rids-ultimatum

If this escalates, bad timing for the King who has one of his most important event this week, the PoA Awards.

[wyevale]

I read yesterday of the Catalan separatists plans for Civil insurrection [basically it's supporters blockading and occupying the Ports, Airports, transport hubs, Media outlets, energy suppliers, Government Buildings and other key locations]. They plan to paralyse the province and FORCE Central Govt to capitulate or forcibly remove civilian protesters [and garner the Worlds approbrium AGAIN].
What isn't clear is precisely when this action is planned for.. perhaps Spanish members may have a better idea.
The article on civil insurrection was in Catalan, and I don't have the ability to translate it, for which I apologise

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by wyevale

I read yesterday of the Catalan separatists plans for Civil insurrection [basically it's supporters blockading and occupying the Ports, Airports, transport hubs, Media outlets, energy suppliers, Government Buildings and other key locations]. They plan to paralyse the province and FORCE Central Govt to capitulate or forcibly remove civilian protesters [and garner the Worlds approbrium AGAIN].
What isn't clear is precisely when this action is planned for.. perhaps Spanish members may have a better idea.
The article on civil insurrection was in Catalan, and I don't have the ability to translate it, for which I apologise

You can use Google Translator to get a rough translation. Normally it is not very good, meaning iit will be full of grammar mistakes and wrongly translated words or expressions, but at least you should be to get the general meaning in the text.

[wyevale]

I did exactly that with the article in Catalan, and 'got the jist of it'. If I can find it again, i'll post the translation here..

[Duke of Marmalade]

Catalonia leader Puigdemont 'unclear' on independence – Spain - BBC News

the ping pong continues for now, Madrid gives Catalonia until Thursday to back away from secession.

[PetticoatLane]

The lack of leadership on the part of all involved is utterly embarrassing and shameful.

I include in this list the king, whose odd hectoring and schoolmasterish style in telling the Catalans off helped not one iota, and of course the European Union. We have been told time and time again that the whole point of the EU is to ensure this kind of thing doesn't happen. Its record so far on this question is stunning in its utter ineptitude.

[wyevale]

The EU really is looking 'like a rabbit caught in the headlights' over this...

It cannot support illegal referenda in one of its member states, and certainly doesn't want Europe to splinter into 90 odd mini states in the near future [which is likely to happen if Catalonia wins independence]. Others will demand the same, Flanders, Corsica, the Basque Country. The list of potential 'statelets' is ENDLESS.
Equally it is hemorrhaging support amongst those who are anti the 'status-quo' especially Millennials who imagine 'independence' for their region IS Nirvana and that the Nation State is 'Fascist'
The sudden hatred for the EU is very noticeable amongst the Scottish Nationalists...and [given its lack of support for Catalonia] is likely to be replicated amongst secessionists across this Continent.

[moby]

Hmmm... interesting perspective though it is not uncommon to see comments about the lack of leadership and criticism of the King and Rajoy.

Me as a government person though see the opposite. I was so-so with Rajoy but now see him favorably. Puigdemont wanting to negotiate shows who's winning in all this. You don't negotiate when you are winning. I admire Rajoy's strong stance in the issue and his refusal to negotiate. You simply don't negotiate with people whose core objective is to slice out a chunk of your territory and who choose to do so by marketing Catalonia as an oppressed region.

Same with the King and his speech. I don't know but I see it all as very "Spanish" so nothing about Rajoy's move or the King's speech, or the guardias and policia's actions against the referendum voters and organizers strike me as particularly shocking. You really, really do not mess with Madrid.

We shall see, if the King and Rajoy manage to preserve Spain as it is, then they would have done a great job. We see in recent history the lengths Spain will go to to keep the state in tact.

[camelot23ca]

Originally Posted by PetticoatLane

The lack of leadership on the part of all involved is utterly embarrassing and shameful.

I include in this list the king, whose odd hectoring and schoolmasterish style in telling the Catalans off helped not one iota, and of course the European Union. We have been told time and time again that the whole point of the EU is to ensure this kind of thing doesn't happen. Its record so far on this question is stunning in its utter ineptitude.

To me poor leadership all around was a foregone conclusion after the crisis happened because it’s the same group of people who allowed things to get to a crisis point in the first place. The announcement of the referendum didn’t come out of nowhere. It’s not like a massive earthquake or a nuclear accident where a period of chaos and official ineptitude is understandable.

There’s no solution as such to the Catalan situation and I guess it’s possible that things are going to have to completely blow up before rebuilding can start but IMO there were plenty of opportunities over the past couple of years for any of the official actors on this stage to rise to the occasion and find a workable way forward. This would involve compromise and hard sells to both sides and no one would come out completely happy but that’s how life works if you’re trying to avoid a catastrophe.

[highpriestess]

First of all, a king doesn't "lead" in a parliamentary monarchy.

Second, Felipe's speech made the case for Spain's position. After Oct 1, Spain's image took a beating abroad and Spanish people were not sure what would happen. His speech rallied support for Spain both internally and abroad. I was taken aback by Felipe's hard stand. But judging from the reaction of my Spaniard friend and reports from Spain, it was well received by Spaniards. Catalans who support independence did not like it but Catalans who want to stay in Spain liked it.

Third, his position wasn't different from his father's in 1981 during the coup: "The Crown stands by the Constitution." He swore to uphold the Constitution twice: Once when he turned 18. Once when he was proclaimed king. Upholding the Constitution and guarding the unity of Spain are his duties according to Spanish Constitution. If he doesn't fulfill them, most Spaniards would start asking what they need him for.

[Duke of Marmalade]

Originally Posted by camelot23ca

To me poor leadership all around was a foregone conclusion after the crisis happened because it’s the same group of people who allowed things to get to a crisis point in the first place. The announcement of the referendum didn’t come out of nowhere. It’s not like a massive earthquake or a nuclear accident where a period of chaos and official ineptitude is understandable.

There’s no solution as such to the Catalan situation and I guess it’s possible that things are going to have to completely blow up before rebuilding can start but IMO there were plenty of opportunities over the past couple of years for any of the official actors on this stage to rise to the occasion and find a workable way forward. This would involve compromise and hard sells to both sides and no one would come out completely happy but that’s how life works if you’re trying to avoid a catastrophe.

Absolutely agree!!

Latest news:
Two Catalan independence leaders taken into custody by Spanish national court

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...overnment/yyyy

[wyevale]

From 'El Confidencial'

A Deputation of the Grandees of Spain, a group of some 400 noblemen, proclaims its "full loyalty" to the King and his defence of the unity of Spain, "which today is threatened by those who, falsifying the past and belittling the laws, threaten to destroy so much of the life we have in common ".
"Catalonia took the name of Spain before its name as a "Hispanic Brand," and, over the centuries, "together with the other Hispanic territories formed the oldest nation in Europe", emphasized in an institutional declaration that affirms: "From that moment, all the Spaniards, of any origin, have been partners of a same collective History".

[JR76]

Originally Posted by wyevale

From 'El Confidencial'

A Deputation of the Grandees of Spain, a group of some 400 noblemen, proclaims its "full loyalty" to the King and his defence of the unity of Spain, "which today is threatened by those who, falsifying the past and belittling the laws, threaten to destroy so much of the life we have in common ".
"Catalonia took the name of Spain before its name as a "Hispanic Brand," and, over the centuries, "together with the other Hispanic territories formed the oldest nation in Europe", emphasized in an institutional declaration that affirms: "From that moment, all the Spaniards, of any origin, have been partners of a same collective History".

Oldest nation in Europe? Given that the unification of Spain was ratified as late as 1715 I'd say its one of the younger nation states of Western Europe.

[highpriestess]

This article gives a real in-depth history of Catalonia's independence movement, the parties make up the coalition, why the right wing party and a Marxist party became bed fellows, their motivation, how Madrid/Rajoy mishandled it... It also explains why Madrid justifiably refuses mediation. It's the best articulated and objective article I've read so far on the subject.

https://www.fastcompany.com/40479515...fied-by-brexit

After knowing all the parties involved, especially CUP, I'm fearing for Catalonia.

[wyevale]

Tomorrow could well be one of the most important days in the history of Spain, and of its monarchy...
Lets hope it is not one of the most violent...

[BELTRANEJA]

The Spanish constitution works perfectly well, has a process to carry out the withdrawal of autonomous Community management, this is not automatic, and has a time. Initially this history of independence,it had lot of support, but in less of one month, more than 700 companies have left Catalonia, some important, some even with an antiquity of centuries, have left, This has caused that many followers of the independence , have decided to abandon the demonstrations and others, because their jobs is in dangerous