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  #1221  
Old 10-05-2017, 05:58 PM
Heir Apparent
 
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Quote:
huge blow to tourism
Hotel Bookings in Barcelona are down by 35% already...
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  #1222  
Old 10-05-2017, 06:04 PM
Majesty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
Hotel Bookings in Barcelona are down by 35% already...
Hasn't the city of Barcelona had anti-tourism campaigns? I read that Barcelonians were suffocated by hordes of tourists. Now the city will have a break.
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  #1223  
Old 10-05-2017, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
the city will have a break.
Dreaming of a break, and the REALITY of one, is rather different, as the City will discover.. the loss of revenue WILL hurt...
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  #1224  
Old 10-05-2017, 06:15 PM
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I don't understand why the King had to make a statement at all if he was going to make one which is so one-sided. I understand that monarchs can't go against the government but likewise they are not simply spokespeople for governments who must speak out for the government at every turn.

There is a way to take a middle ground and if Felipe wasn't going to do that he could have said nothing.

That said I don't understand why the Spanish government is so determined to stop the vote, wouldn't it be better to put effort into campaigning for a united Spain?

I have to say I do think the Catalan government is wrong to get people to vote in a referendum which has no legal standing and needs to realise it can't go on making its own rules to suit its self.
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  #1225  
Old 10-05-2017, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
Hotel Bookings in Barcelona are down by 35% already...
Not surprising. I know from my personal experience. Catalonia and Barcelona are a very popular destination for high school and university graduation trips in Croatia. Before the terrorist attack in Barcelona 2,5 million euros worth high school trips had been planed for beginning of September. After the attack most schools canceled and many rescheduled for October. Now they are all again cancelling, including two schools I work with. This means that next year the school and the parents won’t even take Barcelona in consideration, they’ll go to Italy or France instead. Same thing happened with Greece and they are still not getting the contracts they had before.
And this is only tiny Croatia.
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  #1226  
Old 10-05-2017, 06:50 PM
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lula, thanks for the insight on the economy. Interesting what's happening with Sabadell and La Caixa and the government's move to facilitate transfer of companies.

I'm in Barcelona now and what I see in the media and the reality on the ground are so, so very different. Before the referendum at least there were people banging on pots and pans at 10 pm or so, today there's none. If I didn't know half of them are working towards independence, I wouldn't have any idea about it as there are barely any signs of it on the street. Everything is business as usual. I don't know if there's any country in the world that has managed to become independent in a short time and without any blood spilled so IMO, so nothing's gonna happen. I wish the rest of the world can see how bizarre it is that the media makes Barcelona seem like it's chaotic at the moment, as it's really not.

I honestly think now that King Felipe is on the right, you have to stamp down blatant rebellion and be firm about defending the constitution. The best to hope for from his speech is to get the anti-Independence, pro-Spain silent majority groups to be brave about speaking out. If he has accomplished that with his speech then well done.

I really do think that some Catalans have an inflated sense of importance--counting the benefits they give to the rest of the country without counting how the investment the government has made in the region to even make that possible. Plus the anti-tourists sentiment the past year, although understandable, is also puzzling especially if any of those protesting against it are pro-independence. Hasn't the local government purposefully promoted tourism throughout the years to generate income and what do they think will happen should they become independent? Tourism would basically be something Madrid can't pull out, so they better be extra nice to tourists asap. lol
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  #1227  
Old 10-06-2017, 03:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yashal View Post
Speaking of Girona...
...

That's quite interesting because of the Princess of Girona Foundation. Tomorrow the Chamber of Commerce of Girona (one of the founding members back in 2009) will decide whether they will drop their patronage.

And they are out. Apparently they decided it yesterda and not today as the article was claiming.
Their role in the Foundation was pretty much only institutional but still it's a big decision as they were among the founding members.

The articles says they've released an official statement but I haven't been able to find it. They ask the Crown to reflect on and finally assume its arbitrator role or to look for somebody who can take it.


La Cambra de Comerç sale de la Fundació Princesa de Girona
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  #1228  
Old 10-06-2017, 03:34 AM
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Precisely that foundation is an example of the great effort that King Felipe has made during years to understand and be close to the Catalans.

Its activities are dedicated to support young people, and help in their training and business development. And so far the main beneficiaries have been Catalan youth.

These are political decisions ... but the foundation is a private entity, funded mainly by large companies with interests throughout Spain. In the last years they are developing activities throughout Spain.

That game can do both parts ... another of the founders is the Dalí Foundation. If there is an icon of Gerona and around its figure is developed tourism there, is Salvador Dalí. And Dalí left his inheritance, all his work and the rights to the Spanish state. Will they return that too? Or will they make an illegal seizure?
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  #1229  
Old 10-06-2017, 07:36 AM
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So what could be a solution?
Rajoy can't move without questioning the authority of the state and the constitution, the Catalan government would have to take the first step but this would be admission of defeat.
A mediator from within or outside Spain?
The next step would be the impeachment of the catalan government, probably on Monday, when the parliament plans to meet to announce independence, Madrid evoking §155 and taking away the autonomous status.
Worst case, there are arrests, and the nationalists finally become martyrs. It would lead to massive, possibly violent protests. This could be the trigger to even more chaos.
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  #1230  
Old 10-06-2017, 08:21 AM
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Catalan crisis: Spanish court bars MPs' independence move - BBC News

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  #1231  
Old 10-06-2017, 09:49 AM
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The government of the Generalitat is beginning to get entangled in its own trap, and its lies begin to emerge. The search for mediation and the appeal to dialogue is just a strategy to gain time, because not even between them they agree.

On Sunday they felt successful because their strategy of setting a trap for the Spanish police worked ... but with the days, everything is changing.

Silent Catalans are rebelling, the false wounded have been discovered, money is fleeing from Catalonia, tourists cancel their reservations. They have harassed the police, the civil guard, their families and children so brutally, that thousands of Spaniards are going out to defend them.

As you say Duke, they would be happy with an arrest (before or after their destination will be prison) because they need martyrs for the cause. They are running out of arguments, and they need to continue mobilizing their masses.

I believe that the members of the Catalan government are not going to back down, they prefer to appear as heroes to their followers, if only for a while and that leads to disaster in Catalonia... to admit that they were wrong.

On the other hand, the more sunk the Catalan independence government, the easier it will be for the Spanish government to apply the law.

The violence I will be inevitable. The CUP a group of the radical left is in the Catalan government, they are the ones that most pressure their partners with the most radical ideas, and have shown previously that they can be violent. For the moment, for the sake of independence, they are teaching their followers to be peaceful. But nobody really knows how long that will last if things do not go the way they want.
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  #1232  
Old 10-06-2017, 12:20 PM
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The moment the independistas become violent, it would be the end for them. Yet I've never seen peaceful revolutions for secessions that succeeded.
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  #1233  
Old 10-06-2017, 12:54 PM
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I'd like to give the King my unequivocal congratulations. He spoke primarily in defence of the Law, without respect for which there is no such thing as a civilised society and without which no government of any kind is legitimate. This goes beyond saving the territorial integrity of Spain, the constitutional monarchy or the King himself, it's about stopping anarchy and illegal power-grabs.

The Catalan government acted illegally, and, what is more, in fully conscious contempt of the law, as upheld by the courts, in holding the referendum. The result has no value.

I hope with all my heart that the situation calms down and Puigdemont's balloon bursts as the risks and angers of secession become evident. Felipe VI may yet be credited with averting a disaster with his brave clear and simple message down the line.

Viva El Rey!
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  #1234  
Old 10-07-2017, 07:12 AM
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Speaking up for Catalonia’s ‘silent majority’


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  #1235  
Old 10-07-2017, 07:25 AM
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The demonstrations for Unity today in Madrid look HUGE, and the 'white' demonstrations [for dialogue betwixt opponents] in Barcelona also seem very well supported.

It is good to see...https://youtu.be/KbXekjo4UJ0
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  #1236  
Old 10-07-2017, 07:52 AM
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the monarchy in Spain is guaranteed for many years. Last Sunday in Spain we were all scared of what we saw on television, the referedum was unconstitutional, had been declared by the judges illegal for violating the constitution, was infringing powers that correspond to all Spaniards, a few wanted to appropriate the will of all the Spanish people. On Monday they were threatening, neither President of the Government nor anyone spoke, this was disconcerting, the only judges acting and the police, but on Tuesday when the King came out with a serious, very hard tone, and he remember that those Catalan politicians were against of the law, violating the law, ... and he said that this was unacceptable, antidemocratic, had fractioned Catalan society ,and the peaceful coexistence of people, and pointed to the authorities who were guilty .... Seriously, everything he calmed down, the next day we were all more calm, with the security of our state and law and our institutions, with patience that is what the Spaniards have, and we were all calm .. people in the street said, "HE has spoke very well, "" very well done, "and everyone repeated the words of the King," unacceptable "" irresponsibility "...... I think his message reassured us all, united us, and our fears disappeared. I think he has shown that the Spanish monarchy is very useful and necessary .
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  #1237  
Old 10-07-2017, 08:37 AM
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I have read many commentators in West-European newspapers being surprised or disappointed that King Felipe played the card of the Government.

Of course the King did. He had no any other option. The King reigns, the Government rules. As in any constitutional monarchy. The commentators showed a surprising lack of understanding for the freedom a constitutional King has to speak out: namely none.

When Flanders wants to break away from Belgium, King Philippe will speak the words the Prime Minister has sanctioned. He has no other option. When Bavaria wants to leave the Bundesrepublik Deutschland, the Bundespräsident will speak the words the Chancellor has sanctioned. He has no other option. When rich and overwhelmingly "Remain" London wants to break away from the UK, the Queen will speak the words sanctioned by the Prime Minister. She has no other option.

Would King Felipe have exceeded the bandwith the Government allowed, he would risk a constitutional clash with the Government. And he has nothing to gain with that because trying to become in love with the Catalonian separatists is useless: they want a republic anyway, no matter what the King would have said and no matter which tone was used.
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  #1238  
Old 10-07-2017, 09:32 AM
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Don Carlos Javier de Borbón-Parma y Orange-Nassau, the Duke of Parma and Piacenza gave a comment on the situation in Spain and suggested the old Carlist ideal of a federalization of Spain: link. Don Carlos reminded that he was a Spanish citizen himself.

The Duke's comment translated:


To my dear Carlists,

During the last months, and especially since last August in which criminal terrorism did hit Barcelona, a city I feel a special fondness for and of which I can not speak without extreme affection for being the city where my father Carlos Hugo passed away, and in which I introduced my son Carlos Enrique to you.

I have been very aware of the events that were happening in Spain without wanting to express myself because I had the hope that the democratically elected politicians and all citizens would fulfill their obligations for seeking the communion and not the confrontation.

Unfortunately it has not been so, and in the light of the events that are taking place, aware of the obligations that lie with me as a representative of the historical legacy of the Carlist dynasty, with the memory of my predecessors, with the sacrificed and persistent loyalty shown to them for two centuries by thousands and thousands of Spaniards, and ultimately with the historical significance of Carlism, but also as a Spanish and European citizen, I feel urged to move and share with you the following reflections in order to help to outline a path different from that of confrontation already predicted.

Let us remember our longstanding traditional proposal, which is more necessary than ever. Federalism, as an updated expression of the fortitude of the old kingdoms, is the solution that can guide the aspirations of the different nationalities that live in Spain.

The specific moment we live in is worrying. The situation in Catalonia shows that the political authorities, both the Spanish Government and those of the Generalitat, lead us to a scenario of confrontation and fracture. And in no case is it permissible for those who have the responsibility of governing to lose control over events.

The current crisis has taken such a turn that it must be remembered that the fundamental priority to be defended, and defended by both sides of the conflict, is Concordia (oneness). If this harmony is broken, everything else will disappear, legality will disappear, the sense of community will disappear, and the possibility of solving any kind of problem will disappear, opening up all sorts of negative feelings that will enslave future generations in our beloved Spain.

I am convinced that the vast majority of citizens want a serene dialogue that leads to a pact. And this agreement is still possible within the framework of an updated Constitution and with respect for the aspirations of the Catalan people. This dialogue, from the will to achieve harmony, must take place now, before it is too late. I am sure that, and only then, this will lead to an immediate, future and lasting peace.

For all of the above, I ask my faithful Carlists that, whatever their feelings and sensibilities are, to refrain from participating in acts of confrontation, and whenever possible violence, that my occur, to the utmost extent of their possibilities, and offer mediation. Let us not polarize the situation. We must be the voice of calm and reason. I understand the deep emotions that can be triggered by the situation of today, but we must look to our history and draw the lessons that it offers us. Violence does not lead to durable solutions.

I ask all the Spaniards to look around and understand that there is no "them" because we are all a "we". I ask the political representatives who have the courage and greatness to resolve the dangerous situation that has led to Catalonia and the rest of the Spains, by the paths of harmony and negotiation.

My deep solidarity with those who are suffering the consequences of the confrontation created by this climate of tension.

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  #1239  
Old 10-07-2017, 09:44 AM
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There is something that is even above the government, which is the Constitution.

"The King is the Head of State, the symbol of its unity and permanence"

And a government alone can not change the Constitution, but the majority support of the Spanish citizens. According to the surveys, only 10% of Spaniards would be in favor of the independence of territories within Spain. The attack on the current government is mainly due to political interests, because the reality is that it does not have much margin to give to the Catalan independentists what they want.
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  #1240  
Old 10-07-2017, 09:55 AM
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As expected, Don Sixto Enrique de Borbón-Parma y Bórbon-Busset (the uncle of the Duke of Parma), the self-proclaimed leader of "traditional Carlism" stuck a less conciliatory tone (link):

Two days after the separatist referendum convened in Catalonia by a seditious and illegitimate autonomous government, we still do not know whether the de facto government of Spain is going to fulfill its duty and prevent their celebration.

These are serious hours. The pro-separatist propaganda unleashed abroad has not been counteracted by the means available to the State. The government of Mariano Rajoy seems to continue the suicidal policy of ignorance towards the authentic Catalan tradition and in concessions to nationalism, which for many decades has been preparing the explosive situation that has now been unleashed.

Catalonia is a fundamental and inseparable part of the Crown of Aragón, which integrates the Spanish Monarchy. It is a Spanish region. Any argument to the contrary ignores reality and contradicts history.

It is painful to see how the region which, since the eighteenth century, stood out as the most counter-revolutionary and anti-jacobin* in Spain, is today largely controlled by the most extremist revolutionaries and the most radical Jacobins. For the more Jacobin or liberal the authoritarian centralism is in the Catalan nationalism, therefore the more anti-Catalan it is.

In 1872 my great-uncle Carlos VII restored the fullness of the privileges of the Crown of Aragón, and amongst these the rights of the Principality of Catalonia. The liberal conspiracy, supported by the lodges and by the foreign powers, prevented the victory of the legitimate King of Spain, which would have avoided the subsequent disasters.

Today it is necessary to prepare to defend the unity of the Spains, above all other demands, as the Carlist always did when the country was in danger. I ask the Carlists and all the Spaniards of good will, when necessary, to collaborate with the security forces and the Armed Forces to stop the separatist attempt and preserve the unity and independence of the country, whatever the attitude finally taken by the current Government.

Let us bear in mind the duty that many of us have sworn - I, too, as a legionary knight - before the red and golden flag.

* = The Jacobins were the most extreme anti-Bourbon faction during the French Revolution.
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