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  #1161  
Old 10-03-2017, 03:43 PM
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Well, he didn't lie, but if he had added a few words about the unnecessary violence we witnessed on Sunday it would have been better, just saying.

Obviosuly he doesn't write his own speeches, at least not the most important ones and this one is clearly at the top of the list.

I like to think that when he talked about "the constitutional ways to express and defend different ideas within the law" he meant that the Constitution can be changed and that is the road to follow.
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  #1162  
Old 10-03-2017, 03:48 PM
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I truly wonder how this speech will go down, because as an outsider, I doubt this will go over well with the Catalonian peope at all. This is starting to have eerie resemblances with the Yugoslav war.
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  #1163  
Old 10-03-2017, 03:52 PM
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The King’s words are the words of the government. We couldn’t expect him to say anything more but the official line.
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  #1164  
Old 10-03-2017, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
It sounds like a speech clearly written by the Spanish government.
It was never going to be anything else. Felipe is not his father, in either temperament or circumstance. He’s gone out of his way to emphasize the strictly constitutional nature of the monarchy ever since he became King. He’s very well aware that if he wants to remain King his only option is to follow instructions from the elected government of Spain.

What else was the Spanish Head of State supposed to say except a reiteration of the position of the government?
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  #1165  
Old 10-03-2017, 04:06 PM
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In my opinion, at the beginning the government should have said two simple sentences:

1. You can hold the referendum, BUT it is illegal and the results will not be accepted by the government.
2. The only way to achieve independence is to change the current constitution and you are welcome to take that legal path.

After that all they needed to do is completely ignore the whole thing and just keep repeating their stance. The more importance and opposition the government presents the more power the separatist movement will gain, as we are currently witnessing.
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  #1166  
Old 10-03-2017, 04:07 PM
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Spain's King*Felipe VI demands Catalan leaders end their 'inadmissible disloyalty' in rare intervention
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  #1167  
Old 10-03-2017, 04:08 PM
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I have to say I thought that when I saw the pictures of violent clashes with police, why not simply let people vote but make clear it will change nothing? I guess partly because if so many people came out in support of independence in a vote that was counted with anything approaching accuracy it would give the independence call greater meaning and standing.
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  #1168  
Old 10-03-2017, 04:09 PM
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I think it's necessary that you understand something from abroad.

The Catalan government has breached the law, the Spanish law, but also the Catalan laws. They have invented their own laws outside of legality. That is not allowed in any democratic country.

In democracies there is separation of powers, and regardless of what the Spanish government says, those who are acting now are the judges.

All this is being investigated by the courts. On Sunday it was not the Spanish government that sent the police, it was a Catalan judge of a Catalan court, which is investigating all this.

The Catalan government should end up in jail, they know it, and some believe it would be good, because they would be "martyrs" of indpendence.

If the government unilaterally and illegally declares independence, they have no problem. One of the laws they invented gives them absolute immunity.

This news summarizes everything quite well.

What is really happening in Catalonia?

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/03...84_438952.html
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  #1169  
Old 10-03-2017, 04:41 PM
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Does a judge truly have the power to direct police officers? I would hope that is a misunderstanding. If it is not, the European Union should hastily discuss this huge problem in Spanish law so this might be changed as that is a clear violation of trias politica (separation of powers in: legislative, executive, and judicial powers) that I expected to be the basis for the democracy that the King claims to uphold.
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  #1170  
Old 10-03-2017, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camelot23ca View Post
It was never going to be anything else. Felipe is not his father, in either temperament or circumstance. He’s gone out of his way to emphasize the strictly constitutional nature of the monarchy ever since he became King. He’s very well aware that if he wants to remain King his only option is to follow instructions from the elected government of Spain.

What else was the Spanish Head of State supposed to say except a reiteration of the position of the government?
He was supposed to show some compassion for those who were unjustly brutalized by the police. Even 'civil disobedience' should not lead to a police force using unnecessary violence to their own people (who they probably don't even view as their own people). It surely is possible to both uphold your position and condemn the violence that was used - as Duke of Marmelade, wyevale and Yashal also missed in this speech. A king is to unite not divide his people. Unfortunately, king Felipe is not up to that task at probably one of his most critical moments of his reign so far.

Some are giving the King the benefit of the doubt in that he is just representing the government point of view but if he would not agree he wouldn't hold the speech. So, I do think that he fully supports this stance. Had he not, he would not have held this speech as there was no requirement for him to do so. The way he delivered his speech also was a clear sign of his enormous zeal in condemning the actions of the Catalan government and indirectly those who support them (and not of the Spanish government or the police).
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  #1171  
Old 10-03-2017, 05:02 PM
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A new hint: the Catalan president Carles Puigdemont has just given an interview to BBC News stating his government is bound to make an unilateral declaration of independence "within days". Everything is happening really fast, but if the central government and the royal house knew about that interview beforehand, the speech must be considered under a new light.
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  #1172  
Old 10-03-2017, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
the speech must be considered under a new light.
Yes, as a rallying cry to the rest of Spain, not to 'self destruct'. If Catalonia does announce its secession from Spain, it will drop out of the EU, lose its currency [the Euro] and much of its foreign investment.
Spain will veto any application to rejoin the EU [which in any case will take YEARS].
This speedy exit will be a profound shock to the region, to Spain and to the EU, and will make Brexit look orderly and well organised...

God help us all...
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  #1173  
Old 10-03-2017, 05:38 PM
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King Felipe's speech was awkward. It was not shrewd to accuse Catalans of irresponsible behaviour and being a threat to Spain's social and economic stability.
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  #1174  
Old 10-03-2017, 05:53 PM
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Especially the reference to the economic stability hints at what some of the Catalans are concerned about: that the main reason Spain wants to keep them is because of the money they bring in. Not a smart move...
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  #1175  
Old 10-03-2017, 06:26 PM
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The main reason they want to leave if because they don't want to be linked to poorer regions yeah how very democratic and respectable

Next to that the rest of Spain will vote to be separated from Extremadura which is only a waste of money and no productive at all and the rest of the world will have to endure it because every people has the right to self determination.

I'm sorry, but I'm watching my country tearing apart and I'm not in the mood to tolerate uninformed, Coelhian opinions on the right to decide and the almost mystical act of voting or any other nationalist propaganda. You are treating the Catalan independence movement as if it was Scotland while it actually is the Italian North League. We've been dealing with them for years, they have received (very unfairly) so much more than the rest of the regions and yet I have to endure moral superiority. No way.
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  #1176  
Old 10-03-2017, 06:33 PM
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[QUOTE]We've been dealing with them for years, they have received (very unfairly) so much more than the rest of the regions and yet I have to endure moral superiority. No way.[QUOTE]

I understand your pain.. MANY Brits feel exactly the same about the Scots...
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  #1177  
Old 10-03-2017, 06:37 PM
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Is this kinda like the whole Ireland/England thing? Or England/Scotland?


LaRae
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  #1178  
Old 10-03-2017, 06:49 PM
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Listening to a live translation on Euronews I got the impression that the King stressed
1. That Spain was stronger together and 2. That the referendum was unconstitutional.
My point all along, looking in from abroad, is that when things have gone so far as in Catalonia and Scotland both sides must work towards a compromise and the citizens must have their say in a democratic society. The referendum was unconstitutional yes but the use of force was unforgivable.
From what I've understood a majority of the inhabitants of Catalonia was against independence but the same majority also wanted a referendum to have a say and settle the matter for all. Maybe Felipe should have chosen other words but nobody can be surprised that he's for keeping the nation together.
I truly believe he's not pro a united Spain just for the sake of keeping his throne but because he sees it as the best for the country's citizens.
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  #1179  
Old 10-03-2017, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANNIE_S View Post
The main reason they want to leave if because they don't want to be linked to poorer regions yeah how very democratic and respectable
Fair enough. That argument goes both ways! If that would be the only reason for people to be in favour of independence, I would love to argue with them and try to convince them that it would be a very bad reason and that the 'higher way' would be to stick together and bear responsibility for each other. However, I do think that (at least for some) there is more to that; the fact that they speak a different language is a clear sign of different cultures as well.

Quote:
Next to that the rest of Spain will vote to be separated from Extremadura which is only a waste of money and no productive at all and the rest of the world will have to endure it because every people has the right to self determination.
Those of Extremadura expressing an interest to become an independent country, yes, others kicking them out, no!

Quote:
I'm sorry, but I'm watching my country tearing apart and I'm not in the mood to tolerate uninformed, Coelhian opinions on the right to decide and the almost mystical act of voting or any other nationalist propaganda. You are treating the Catalan independence movement as if it was Escocia while it actually is the Italian North League.
Nor do I appreciate being called uninformed; I might not be Spanish but I lived in Spain (and would love to return some day) so that probably explains part of my interest in the topic.

However, I do understand how you (and many others) so much wish for the country to stay united (and you probably are even more concerned about the police interventions of last Sunday). I also would love to see that - but not at all costs. Unfortunately, I don't think the king's speech has contributed to a solution but instead worsened the situation. To be clear: I don't think that a different speech would have been the solution but it might have been a small step in the direction of a solution instead of backwards. It is a hard road ahead and I really hope that wise people will be found/stand up to find ways for reconciliation.

I've stated my position on independence movements before (in short: there should be a reasonable path with lots of safeguards making it possible if an overwhelming majority (2/3rds?) of the population of the region that strives for independence wishes so - knowing fully well what the consequences are; as it is easy to vote for a 'general idea' but something different if it truly costs you). The current actions of the Catalan government should clearly be condemned but that is also true for the actions of the Spanish government. Yet, not giving any perspective to the people for independence (I don't think they will have a 2/3rd majority any time soon!) but instead responding with oppression is unwise.

Quote:
We've been dealing with them for years, they have received (very unfairly) so much more than the rest of the regions and yet I have to endure moral superiority. No way.
I understand that the 'advantages' have been used to appease the independence movements; so yes, it is very logical that it creates frustration among Spaniards from other region. I don't think giving in will ever be considered 'enough', so the only solution would be a realistic path to independence (which I hope would not happen but that's not up to me), how undesirable that prospect might be. That would also eliminate the current unfairness. Of course, the same opportunity should be offered to other regions as well: hopefully all regions show to have the desire to remain part of Spain(because of their love of Spain not because of oppression).
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  #1180  
Old 10-03-2017, 07:34 PM
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You don't dialogue with those who deliberately break the law, and dialogue with them just because they have broken the law. They have seats at the Spanish Parlament, there are ways to propose a Constitution change that would allow them to vote, or support a transition to a Federal State that other political groups would actually support. They have declined the lawful way (as Felipe has noted on his speech btw) because they know it would take YEARS (who on his right mind would create a new country in a month?) and they rely most of their popular support on people's anger and quick succession of events, just like any other nationalism (Brexit anyone?)

I would have appreciated also a self criticism from Felipe as the highest representant from the State about the shameful way this whole thing was handled and at first considered the speech very harsh, but when the Catalans authorities are anouncing an unilateral declaration of independance at the same time, what dialogue is left for? It's pretty obvious they are just heading for their objetive and won't negotiate, they know perfectly all their acts can be punished by Spanish laws and yet they do it, which means (Margaery Tyrell speaking) "they have no intention to face such consequences".

I know we all like to be for dialogue and words and good willing stuff, but this has got to a point when we must be realistic and assume that's utopic. Unless they recapacite during the next few days, they are either heading to independence or to Court. And if it's independence, things can go even worse.
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