Future and Popularity of the Spanish Monarchy

[Mbruno]

If I were Felipe, i'd decline to read a speech written for me by Rajoy..who has only enflamed the situation.

Rather his own words will be the ones likely to calm the Nation. Obviously the speech must be approved by the Government, but a choice of words that satisfies both King and PM MUST be found, and by 9pm...

The Spanish constitution, I believe, says that the ministers are responsible for the King's actions. Having said that though, I remember an interview King Juan Carlos gave early in his reign where he said that a Spanish king cannot be like a Scandinavian or a British monarch in the sense that there are times when he will have to be more proactive in state affairs. Juan Carlos certainly was proactive when needed and I wonder if the police reaction we saw on Sunday would have happened the way it did if Juan Carlos were still king instead of Felipe.

The problem for Felipe is that the separatists and the republicans still identify the Bourbon monarchy with the unitary Castilian state or, worse than that, even with Franco's regime. So, there is no way the King can be an impartial, honest broker or a symbol of unity for them.

 

[lula]

Juan Carlos lived a historical moment, which is not the current one. He could intervene actively in political matters in which Felipe can not intervene, he must be much more prudent and follow more faithfully the constitution.

King Felipe has a difficult role, because it is a difficult time, and political parties lack sense of State.

Podemos republicans and independentists will criticize anything he says, no matter how rational and prudent his speech is ... because that is what they always does. On many occasions they have the answer prepared before listening to the speech.

PP, PSOE and Ciudadanos will support the King ... but in the end all use these issues in an electoral manner.

Today the independentists have organized strike ... the Spanish police and their families, the non-independence politicians and the journalists have been harassed.

Unfortunately it would not be strange that the day ended with burning photos of the King of Spain, which is one of the favorite activities of some of these groups.

 

[ANNIE_S]

I guess there needs to be a moderator, is there any figure in Spain who has a moral authority and is trusted to be impartial?

This should be the time to emphasize that such a role could be perfectly played by a monarch.

 

[wyevale]

such a role could be perfectly played by a monarch.

And His Majesty WILL.. but those viscerally opposed to him, and to a united Spain will not listen...

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

If I recall correctly, JC had political powers in the beginning, when the Spanish State was formed after Franco. He gave it back when everything was on the way. For that reason for a long time his voice had a lot to say but the times are different now and Felipe could not inherit this past.

How can he be a moderator when his position is the position of the government, imo both sides are far too deep now to be moderated by the King and no person with a separatist or autonomic mindset would accept him anyway.

In other countries its usually a kind of elder statesman, who has probably dealt with the other side before. Has every former PM had the same hardliner position than Rajoy or is there a moderate person of the past?
It would be difficult for a foreigner and I doubt Brussels is keen to send somebody.

 

[wyevale]

It would be difficult for a foreigner and I doubt Brussels is keen to send somebody.

Brussels is clearly closely allied to Spain, and therefore discredited [for Catalan Nationalists]. As you say it would be very difficult for a foreigner, but [just possibly] Barack Obama has sufficient respect [in Europe at least, if not 'at home'] to attempt it ?

 

[Yashal]

Live here in less than a minute

 

[Somebody]

Given the official response from the EU I don't think that 'Brussels' is in a position to do much. It would be great if they could find some elder statesman indeed.

I still think that the King could have this position if he was truly willing to listen to both sides, set his own interests aside, and look for the best for all involved. So far, he has clearly sided with 'Madrid' so it would be hard to convince the other party that he truly has their best interest (which might be becoming independent and a republic) at heart - and it would definitely be a risky business. Maybe Letizia can bring something to the table as someone who apparently had republican sentiments before meeting the King; so she should be able to sympathize.

 

[Somebody]

Wow, the King is really angry at the people in Catalunya! Not really the speech that would bring people together...

At the end he tries to say a few things to calm them down (I missed the first minute, so I might have said something similar at first as well) but his words are not really convincing and just seem to reiterate the 'Madrid' position. So, if there was any chance of him having a reconciliatory role (which was already very small), that moment has passed given his clear message that distances those who hold a different opinion: they just need to listen and behave (my interpretation of his words).

 

[lula]

That is not rol for the King, his image would burn a lot and would not have assured any results.

Catalonia already has very high levels of independence of the central government. And it has reached a point where the Spanish government does not have much room to negotiate, because in order to do so, the Constitution should be changed and all Spaniards should vote for it.

I hope that the speech of the king serves as support for those non-independentists catalans who at this moment feel alone, targeted and attacked.

 

[muriel]

Catalan vote illegal - Spanish king - BBC News

 

[Mbruno]

Wow, the King is really angry at the people in Catalunya! Not really the speech that would bring people together...

At the end he tries to say a few things to calm them down (I missed the first minute, so I might have said something similar at first as well) but his words are not really convincing and just seem to reiterate the 'Madrid' position. So, if there was any chance of him having a reconciliatory role (which was already very small), that moment has passed given his clear message that distances those who hold a different opinion: they just need to listen and behave (my interpretation of his words).

It sounds like a speech clearly written by the Spanish government.

 

[wyevale]

I regret the absence of ANY reference to the violence employed by the Guardia Civil, let alone condemnation of it...

 

[ANNIE_S]

It sounds like a speech clearly written by the Spanish government.

Absolutely. Like if the government had hidden behind him. This is awful.

I appreciate the support to non-nationalists catalans that, just like Lula says, are the real losers of this situation. But this is nothing, means nothing (apart from ratifying further and harsher actions by the government) and will improve nothing.

What an horrendous week for Spain. I'm devastated.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

The King looks stressed out and affected by the situation. He's between a rock and a hard place.

 

[lula]

The King is not angry with the people of Catalonia ... the king is "angry" with the Catalan government that has impeached the Spanish and Catalan laws, and has committed numerous illegalities. He has defended the Constitution and the law, which is what any public servant must defend.

He has told the independentists that if they want to defend independence, they must do it within the law, which gives them the democratic resources to do so.

To non-independists catalans, he has shown support.

http://www.casareal.es/ES/Actividades/Paginas/actividades_actividades_detalle.aspx?data=13335

 

[Muhler]

Well, little sympathy for the Catalan separatist movement there. The leaders are being blasted well and truly!
Was there even a call for mutual restraint and calm?

The King could hardly say anything that would go against the Spanish government and Parliament, but this was very much a broadside.

Wonder how this will be received in Barcelona tonight? Demonstrations?
Is there a risk the Catalan separatist leaders will be arrested?

 

[ANNIE_S]

Tonight's Spain's king Felipe VI speech in a few bullet points:

https://twitter.com/x/status/915297619433459713

- Hard attack on "reckless Catalan authorities".
- Condems their "irresponsible behaviour and inadmissible disloyalty".
- "They have broken the democratic principles of rule of law and ndermined harmony and coexistence in Catalan society itself".
- "Law and Constitution will be respected".
- To those (mainly non pro independence catalans) "who feel helpless now: you are not alone".
- "I express my commitment as King with the unity and permanence of Spain".
- "These are difficult times, but we will overcome them. These are very complex moments, but we will move forward".
- He did not urge to Catalan and Central Government to dialogue.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

https://www.ft.com/content/76b00a7b-8e7b-3f91-a274-aa49007f4d0f

no condemnation of violence.

 

[Yashal]

Well, he didn't lie, but if he had added a few words about the unnecessary violence we witnessed on Sunday it would have been better, just saying.

Obviosuly he doesn't write his own speeches, at least not the most important ones and this one is clearly at the top of the list.

I like to think that when he talked about "the constitutional ways to express and defend different ideas within the law" he meant that the Constitution can be changed and that is the road to follow.

 

[wyevale]

At least there was no announcement of 'direct rule' from Madrid, or suspension of Catalan autonomy.. but a 'missed opportunity' I think.. no expression of regret at the injuries suffered by civilians, no attempt to spread balm....He called for unity but only criticised one side. The rule of law MUST be applied to all, including Baton wielding Policemen, or it is NOTHING...

It might almost have been Rajoy speaking....

 

[Empress Merel]

I truly wonder how this speech will go down, because as an outsider, I doubt this will go over well with the Catalonian peope at all. This is starting to have eerie resemblances with the Yugoslav war.

 

[Rudolph]

The King’s words are the words of the government. We couldn’t expect him to say anything more but the official line.

 

[camelot23ca]

It sounds like a speech clearly written by the Spanish government.

It was never going to be anything else. Felipe is not his father, in either temperament or circumstance. He’s gone out of his way to emphasize the strictly constitutional nature of the monarchy ever since he became King. He’s very well aware that if he wants to remain King his only option is to follow instructions from the elected government of Spain.

What else was the Spanish Head of State supposed to say except a reiteration of the position of the government?

 

[Princess Larisa]

In my opinion, at the beginning the government should have said two simple sentences:

1. You can hold the referendum, BUT it is illegal and the results will not be accepted by the government.
2. The only way to achieve independence is to change the current constitution and you are welcome to take that legal path.

After that all they needed to do is completely ignore the whole thing and just keep repeating their stance. The more importance and opposition the government presents the more power the separatist movement will gain, as we are currently witnessing.

 

[Pranter]

Spain's King*Felipe VI demands Catalan leaders end their 'inadmissible disloyalty' in rare intervention

 

[tommy100]

I have to say I thought that when I saw the pictures of violent clashes with police, why not simply let people vote but make clear it will change nothing? I guess partly because if so many people came out in support of independence in a vote that was counted with anything approaching accuracy it would give the independence call greater meaning and standing.

 

[lula]

I think it's necessary that you understand something from abroad.

The Catalan government has breached the law, the Spanish law, but also the Catalan laws. They have invented their own laws outside of legality. That is not allowed in any democratic country.

In democracies there is separation of powers, and regardless of what the Spanish government says, those who are acting now are the judges.

All this is being investigated by the courts. On Sunday it was not the Spanish government that sent the police, it was a Catalan judge of a Catalan court, which is investigating all this.

The Catalan government should end up in jail, they know it, and some believe it would be good, because they would be "martyrs" of indpendence.

If the government unilaterally and illegally declares independence, they have no problem. One of the laws they invented gives them absolute immunity.

This news summarizes everything quite well.

What is really happening in Catalonia?

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/03/inenglish/1507025584_438952.html

 

[Somebody]

Does a judge truly have the power to direct police officers? I would hope that is a misunderstanding. If it is not, the European Union should hastily discuss this huge problem in Spanish law so this might be changed as that is a clear violation of trias politica (separation of powers in: legislative, executive, and judicial powers) that I expected to be the basis for the democracy that the King claims to uphold.

 

[Somebody]

It was never going to be anything else. Felipe is not his father, in either temperament or circumstance. He’s gone out of his way to emphasize the strictly constitutional nature of the monarchy ever since he became King. He’s very well aware that if he wants to remain King his only option is to follow instructions from the elected government of Spain.

What else was the Spanish Head of State supposed to say except a reiteration of the position of the government?

He was supposed to show some compassion for those who were unjustly brutalized by the police. Even 'civil disobedience' should not lead to a police force using unnecessary violence to their own people (who they probably don't even view as their own people). It surely is possible to both uphold your position and condemn the violence that was used - as Duke of Marmelade, wyevale and Yashal also missed in this speech. A king is to unite not divide his people. Unfortunately, king Felipe is not up to that task at probably one of his most critical moments of his reign so far.

Some are giving the King the benefit of the doubt in that he is just representing the government point of view but if he would not agree he wouldn't hold the speech. So, I do think that he fully supports this stance. Had he not, he would not have held this speech as there was no requirement for him to do so. The way he delivered his speech also was a clear sign of his enormous zeal in condemning the actions of the Catalan government and indirectly those who support them (and not of the Spanish government or the police).