Future and Popularity of the Spanish Monarchy

[Duc_et_Pair]

I have seen her with my very own eyes on that fateful day in September 2001 when two planes crashed into the Twin Towers. I was in the marina of Sitges in Catalonia and saw her -inaudible- with the headline 'Guerra en EE.UU.' with continous switches to 'Nueva York'. That was the first time I have seen her, all day long with such a dramatic live ticker running. So the current Queen of Spain was on television years before her marriage to Don Felipe.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Why single out Letizia as "the COMMONER queen?" With three exceptions(Elizabeth II, Margrethe, maybe Mathilde) they are all commoner queens now!

Probably because no one expected the future King of Spain a commoner? Spain was seen as a similar monarchy as Belgium or Liechtenstein with a more traditional choice of partners.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I have seen her with my very own eyes on that fateful day in September 2001 when two planes crashed into the Twin Towers. I was in the marina of Sitges in Catalonia and saw her -inaudible- with the headline 'Guerra en EE.UU.' with continous switches to 'Nueva York'. That was the first time I have seen her, all day long with such a dramatic live ticker running. So the current Queen of Spain was on television years before her marriage to Don Felipe.

Yes, she was, I never disputed that. She went to NY and Iraq as a field reporter. But its not that every Spaniard knew who she was at the time or felt her face was familiar.

 

[Princess of Durham]

IMO, it is also a fine line between people accepting/liking/being proud of, one of their own AND then actually seeing them propelled into such a position in a royal family. What was the former feeling can easily turn to a certain jealousy, resentment and sneering. IOW, a bit of "why her and not me" or "she is no better than me" resentment. We've seen it enough in other situations. If the person coming into that position of a perceived high position/status is also perceived as higher status there does not seem to be the same "rules" for them as for lesser beings. JMHO

 

[Winnie]

IMO, it is also a fine line between people accepting/liking/being proud of, one of their own AND then actually seeing them propelled into such a position in a royal family. What was the former feeling can easily turn to a certain jealousy, resentment and sneering. IOW, a bit of "why her and not me" or "she is no better than me" resentment. We've seen it enough in other situations. If the person coming into that position of a perceived high position/status is also perceived as higher status there does not seem to be the same "rules" for them as for lesser beings. JMHO

Very thoughtful insight. Yes, some people can be very jealous and resent others for their "lucky" marriage. See it all the time. Does cause snarky and nasty remarks by the "why her" and "what does he see in her", "my body is so much sexier", type of remarks. But people like that will never change and they do sometimes change other weak mined people's opinions. I truly believe that the sort of person that has to find fault constantly with others had extremely nasty pessimistic turgid parents and they followed suit. Shame, they really think they are superior to all because parents let them think they were. Silly in the overall scheme of the world. But, on the other hand, Letizia knew roughly what she was getting into by marrying royalty except I don't think she realized that her own thoughts and personality would be curtailed to the extent it was.

 

[Fürstin Taxis]

Letizia didn't told Felipe off, he interrupted her and she said 'let me finish'. And people pretended as if she castrated him in front off journalists
At least her words weren't counted like Masako's, who 'dared' to speak some seconds more than Naruhito.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

IMO, it is also a fine line between people accepting/liking/being proud of, one of their own AND then actually seeing them propelled into such a position in a royal family. What was the former feeling can easily turn to a certain jealousy, resentment and sneering. IOW, a bit of "why her and not me" or "she is no better than me" resentment. We've seen it enough in other situations. If the person coming into that position of a perceived high position/status is also perceived as higher status there does not seem to be the same "rules" for them as for lesser beings. JMHO

Especially compatriots have that effect. Mary and Máxima lesser because they are "exotic". Mathilde and Stéphanie of course already belonged to the elite. So Mette-Marit, Letizia and Catherine can trigger negative comments indeed.

 

[Rudolph]

Disdain for the 'elite' and inherited privilege is the reason why republican movements such as the one in Spain have traction. I highly doubt if Letizia was a foreign princess the Spanish monarchy would suddenly be popular.

In some countries like Britain and Denmark both the monarchy and its individuals are popular while in other countries like Spain, some individuals are popular while the institution itself is under attack.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

There are people belonging to the very, very elite and popular, for an example the current Duke of Alba. King Juan Carlos -more elitist than him is not possible- has reached never-seen heights of popularity.

What especially Mette-Marit, Letizia and Catherine face is the puh... girl, don't think you are more than me-phenomenon. Máxima and Mary at least are from Buenos Aires or Hobart and have nothing in common with the Dane in Aarhus or the Dutch in Utrecht, so to say.

 

[Rudolph]

King JC's 'elite' status didn't keep him on his throne though. One of the reasons he abdicated was to make room for his increasingly popular son.

I guess my point is bloodlines don't keep monarchies popular. Bloodlines don't keep kings on their throne because if it did all of Europe would stil be monarchies.

 

[MARG]

I don't think that is actually much of a factor unless the monarch was guilty of gross legal or moral misconduct.

For many year's JC has appeared more and more frail and the reemergence of old accusations about general debauchery, which when added to a media that knows no bounds and a daughter accused of tax fraud and involvement and sundry other financial misconduct showing that you can never have enough money, well it just doesn't get much worse than that.

I do not believe JC abdicated because of "popularity" because he is still a very popular historical figure, but rather to give the monarchy the appearance of a clean slate.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

I agree with your last sentence 100% MARG.

 

[Mbruno]

Disdain for the 'elite' and inherited privilege is the reason why republican movements such as the one in Spain have traction. I highly doubt if Letizia was a foreign princess the Spanish monarchy would suddenly be popular.

In some countries like Britain and Denmark both the monarchy and its individuals are popular while in other countries like Spain, some individuals are popular while the institution itself is under attack.

There is certainly a segment of the Spanish people, including some Catalans, who identify with socialist ideals and are therefore ideologically opposed to the monarchy. However, many Catalan nationalists, who are actually ideologically conservative/right-wing, do not have so much a problem with "inherited privilege" per se, but rather with what they call "the Spanish State", which they identify with the monarchy and, in particular, with the Bourbon dynasty. Hence their "republicanism".

We need to keep things in perspective though. As I wrote before, opinion polls show that, not only King Felipe VI is personally popular (with an approval rating above 70 %), but also the monarchy as an institution is backed by over 60 % of the overall Spanish population. Catalonia is an isolated problem and, even in Catalonia itself, although I haven't seen polls about the monarchy specifically, there are recent polls showing that a majority of Catalans probably would vote NO in a hypothetical independence referendum.

Again, Rajoy's mistake was to have refused to allow a real referendum to take place, giving the separatists the alternative of using the local elections as an alleged proxy for the referendum. That made matters worse as, while the separatists would probably lose the referendum, they will on the other hand probably win the regional elections and claim a mandate for independence which they don't actually have.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

There are people belonging to the very, very elite and popular, for an example the current Duke of Alba. King Juan Carlos -more elitist than him is not possible- has reached never-seen heights of popularity.

What especially Mette-Marit, Letizia and Catherine face is the puh... girl, don't think you are more than me-phenomenon. Máxima and Mary at least are from Buenos Aires or Hobart and have nothing in common with the Dane in Aarhus or the Dutch in Utrecht, so to say.

It's unfortunate, but I think this is exactly how some people tend to think when a "commoner" is elevated above them into Royalty. On the one hand there is the appeal of the fairy tale, but the flip side is resentment.

I don't need to curtsy to the daughter of the man who delivered my mail. She is, after all, just like me!!

At least Mary and Maxima-though not born Royal-had the advantage of being from a far away country.

It's all very complicated but very interesting.

 

[Mbruno]

It's unfortunate, but I think this is exactly how some people tend to think when a "commoner" is elevated above them into Royalty. On the one hand there is the appeal of the fairy tale, but the flip side is resentment.

I don't need to curtsy to the daughter of the man who delivered my mail. She is, after all, just like me!!

At least Mary and Maxima-though not born Royal-had the advantage of being from a far away country.

It's all very complicated but very interesting.

I'm not so sure that is a relevant issue in Europe. I have known and worked with many people in or from Spain and have been to the country several times and never heard any objection to Letizia based on her commoner background or previous profession as a journalist. I heard comments though that she is (or was) perceived as being "cold" and distant, or too obsessed with fashion or with her body.

Ironically, I see the kind of attitude you mentioned in many US royal watchers though. It suffices to say that many US posters in TRF for example cannot possibly accept that "someone like Sofia Hellqvist" can now be a princess of Sweden.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Re: the former Sofia Hellqvist, that is not an attitude exclusive only to Americans or posters here at TRF. Take a gander at the comments of some international members at other message boards and blogs.

As to the reason(s) for it? Well there are some fairly shocking photos of Sweden's newest princess online...or there used to be anyway before the SRF successfully launched Project Cleanup. To imply that posters who found(and still find) Carl-Philip's choice of a wife and princess surprising are being unfair is a tad disingenuous, imo.

But that is a subject for another thread.

 

[Rudolph]

Well someone must marry 'up'. Whether Letizia , Daniel or Stephanie they're HRH because of marriage and not by birthright.

Its only a relatively recent trend in monarchies where royal-noble/commoner marriages are considered socially equal.

And because I'm willing to wager not many people in Spain still believe in the divine right of kings, I'm not sure what Letizia 'social status' has to do with it.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[...] to make room for his increasingly popular son.

[...]

Who on himself, is a 100% royalborn gentleman too...



You seem to see this as 'commoner' vs 'elite' but that is not what I intended. The question was why Letizia and Mette-Marit got so much negativity in comparison with "colleagues". One explanation is that someone from the own social group leaves its ranks and now suddenly is "higher". Then the mechanism, duh... who do you think you are??? starts working. That Máxima and Mary escaped this phenomenon is because they are not from the own social group. Both of them come from the total other side of the world, the southern hemisphere, a total different culture, did not even speak the language when they entered the scène. They were never "one of them" and remained "exotic" so to say.

 

[Rudolph]

Who on himself, is a 100% royalborn gentleman too...



You seem to see this as 'commoner' vs 'elite' but that is not what I intended. The question was why Letizia and Mette-Marit got so much negativity in comparison with "colleagues". One explanation is that someone from the own social group leaves its ranks and now suddenly is "higher". Then the mechanism, duh... who do you think you are??? starts working. That Máxima and Mary escaped this phenomenon is because they are not from the own social group. Both of them come from the total other side of the world, the southern hemisphere, a total different culture, did not even speak the language when they entered the scène. They were never "one of them" and remained "exotic" so to say.

And what is the explanation for the negative press of 100 percent royals?

It seems many people are twisting and turning the class system to suit their particular biases.

Can't have it both ways.

 

[Rudolph]

You can single out any royal and point to negativity. Mary of Denmark has entire websites and blogs dedicated to her demise and yet it has no impact. The Duchess of Cambridge is more popular than either the Princes of Wales or the Duchess of Cornwall no matter the comments in the Daily Mail.

It seems the blood royals of Spain have cause the monarchy there more headaches than Letizia ever has.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

How can you ever see a news anchor whom came in your living room, presenting the news as "Her Majesty The Queen of Spain"? It is really that phenomenon. It is too close. I think Doña Letizia makes perfect contact with the people but it is the uneasy feeling of heyyy... who am I waving to? Are we all playing some theatre or so? She is not what she pretends she is. Mathilde and Stéphanie do not have this phenomenon. Someone who is raised at the Château d'Anvaing or the Château de Losange definitely is not like "our social group". In Anvaing or in Villers-La-Bonne-Eau the two families were already met with respect and recognition before any Philippe or any Guillaume was in sight.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

You can single out any royal and point to negativity. Mary of Denmark has entire websites and blogs dedicated to her demise and yet it has no impact. The Duchess of Cambridge is more popular than either the Princes of Wales or the Duchess of Cornwall no matter the comments in the Daily Mail.

It seems the blood royals of Spain have cause the monarchy there more headaches than Letizia ever has.

Yes Rudolph, open up the gates, let the flood of commoners come in, no any requirement, no standards, We Are All Equal (But Some Are More Equal Than We), hurrah! And see how fast the monarchies tumble down. Du moment that there is no any difference anymore between "us" and "them", then the whole raison d'être of a monarchy has gone. It is as simple as that.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The newspaper El País summed up a few paradoxes regarding today's elections in Catalonia.

1. A referendum in seats, not in votes?
Separatists see these elections as a starting point for independence. But in a referendum it is about the number of votes pro and contra. Every vote has the same weight. In these elections this is not like that: in the electoral district Barcelona, the most densely populated but at the same time the less pro-independent district, one vote has only half of the value of a vote in the electoral district Girona. For the separatists a majority in seats is enough, even if there is no majority in votes. That could possibly mean that the new Catalan Parliament declares independence while the majority of the Catalans have not voted for it... At the end of the process there will be a real referendum. But then it is not about the question pro or contra independence. The question will be: pro or contra the new Catalan Constitution.

2. Tearing apart from Spain requires less votes than the appointment of a new Ombudsman
The half plus one of all seats is enough to declare independence, so claim the separatists. The most important decision imagineable so requires less votes than a reform of the Statute of Autonomy (2/3rd of the votes), a reform of the electoral system (2/3rd of the votes) or even the appointment of a new Ombudsman (3/5th of the votes).

3. Who has the right to make the decision?
Do not have all Spaniards the right to decide about the future of their country? If one claims that it is only a matter of the Catalans themselves, what to do when in Barcelona and Tarragona the separatists will most likely not win a majority? Have the people of Barcelona a say and so remain part of the Kingdom of Spain? When the argument is: "Catalonia is an unity and the Catalonian Parliament decides" what then about the similar argument: "Spain is an unity and the Spanish Parliament decides"?

4. Breaking away from Spain but at the same time remain in Spain
The separatists announced they will break away from Spain. At the same time they will run for the Spanish Parliament during the coming general elections (December). This means the separatists wants -paradoxically enough- to be represented in the very Parliament of the very Kingdom of Spain they want to break with.

 

[lula]

Spain is Spain and the "wife of" is always criticized... It is more related to how the Spanish society is, that with the person occupying the position. Recent history is an example.

I think the most popular queen of Spain was Maria de las Mercedes, wife of Alfonso XII, and because she died tragically at age 18.

The second wife, Maria Cristina, was poorly received, despite exercising her role very well after the death of her husband, the critics were not totally forgotten.

Also Victoria Eugenia or Sofia were members of royalty, but they were foreign, had another religion and were seen as cold and distant women who do not fit into Spanish society and customs.

Letizia is criticized with other arguments, but is the same. In her case aggravated by the development of gossip press, of which she has become a priority objective, and internet.

Queen Sofia has taken 40 years to be popular in this country during that time she was always identified as a cold woman, only the birth of her grandchildren and her cooperation work in recent years have changed that.

Even after the scandal of Juan Carlos and Noos, sectors faithful to her husband, have accused her for not knowing how to educate her children, allow their marriages or not to keep her family together.

Who does not belong to the royal family by birth is always in a more complex position, the external element that is easier to blame the problems.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

The newspaper El País summed up a few paradoxes regarding today's elections in Catalonia.

1. A referendum in seats, not in votes?
Separatists see these elections as a starting point for independence. But in a referendum it is about the number of votes pro and contra. Every vote has the same weight. In these elections this is not like that: in the electoral district Barcelona, the most densely populated but at the same time the less pro-independent district, one vote has only half of the value of a vote in the electoral district Girona. For the separatists a majority in seats is enough, even if there is no majority in votes. That could possibly mean that the new Catalan Parliament declares independence while the majority of the Catalans have not voted for it... At the end of the process there will be a real referendum. But then it is not about the question pro or contra independence. The question will be: pro or contra the new Catalan Constitution.

2. Tearing apart from Spain requires less votes than the appointment of a new Ombudsman
The half plus one of all seats is enough to declare independence, so claim the separatists. The most important decision imagineable so requires less votes than a reform of the Statute of Autonomy (2/3rd of the votes), a reform of the electoral system (2/3rd of the votes) or even the appointment of a new Ombudsman (3/5th of the votes).

3. Who has the right to make the decision?
Do not have all Spaniards the right to decide about the future of their country? If one claims that it is only a matter of the Catalans themselves, what to do when in Barcelona and Tarragona the separatists will most likely not win a majority? Have the people of Barcelona a say and so remain part of the Kingdom of Spain? When the argument is: "Catalonia is an unity and the Catalonian Parliament decides" what then about the similar argument: "Spain is an unity and the Spanish Parliament decides"?

4. Breaking away from Spain but at the same time remain in Spain
The separatists announced they will break away from Spain. At the same time they will run for the Spanish Parliament during the coming general elections (December). This means the separatists wants -paradoxically enough- to be represented in the very Parliament of the very Kingdom of Spain they want to break with.

I think in the end this will be less about independence and more about the concessions and special agreements that Catalonia will get out of Madrid. I doubt many Catalans have a problem with feeling catalan while living in Spain, its all about money and political power.
It's Felipe's job to recite like a mantra that the spanish unity is not negotiable but that's it. That is what Rajoy asks of him, he even sent him to the US to get this sentence out of Obama.
The rest is now a tug of war about money, power, influence.

 

[An Ard Ri]

I think its far too early and also unfair to start accessing Letizia's role as queen consort as she has only been in that role a little over a year!

 

[Lee-Z]

^^^^^^^^
i agree, lot's of opinions about the Spanish RF will be remnants from a longer period than just K.Felipe's reign.
And like was mentioned in another thread, before she became queen, Q.Letizia (and her husband) were kept on a tight leash and didn't have much chance of gaining experience like some of their fellow-ne-monarchs had..

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

^^^^^^^^
i agree, lot's of opinions about the Spanish RF will be remnants from a longer period than just K.Felipe's reign.
And like was mentioned in another thread, before she became queen, Q.Letizia (and her husband) were kept on a tight leash and didn't have much chance of gaining experience like some of their fellow-ne-monarchs had..

I beg to differ. Don Felipe had a high profile and an own agenda as The Prince of Asturias. He was not at all kept on a tight leash. I have the idea that from all Heirs of his generation, he was the most independent.

 

[Mbruno]

I beg to differ. Don Felipe had a high profile and an own agenda as The Prince of Asturias. He was not at all kept on a tight leash. I have the idea that from all Heirs of his generation, he was the most independent.

I don't know if Letizia was kept on a tight leash when she was Princess of Asturias. However, I'm pretty sure it must be difficult to be under the shadow of a dominating figure like Queen Sofia.

 

[Lee-Z]

I beg to differ. Don Felipe had a high profile and an own agenda as The Prince of Asturias. He was not at all kept on a tight leash. I have the idea that from all Heirs of his generation, he was the most independent.

Well, be that as it may, if the Spanish abolish the monarchy tomorrow, next week or next month, it's not going to be because they had a commoner for their queen for a year.
And if Q.Letizia is queen for 40 years and *then* the monarchy is abolished, it will more likely have to do with other things than the fact that Q.Letizia is not royal-born...