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  #21  
Old 07-21-2020, 07:06 AM
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I assume Monaco is a link because of his driving career.
Hadn't thought of that and there was me think it was the weather
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  #22  
Old 07-21-2020, 05:50 PM
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Congratulations to Eleonore and Jerome! It looked like a nice occasion despite the circumstances.
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  #23  
Old 07-21-2020, 06:06 PM
eya eya is offline
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Pictures from the Wedding and from the lunch after shares the mother of Eleonore

https://www.instagram.com/p/CC6259mFg1k/


and from the bride


https://www.instagram.com/p/CC7rYikl6Yi/
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  #24  
Old 07-22-2020, 09:46 AM
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Quite an original match for a Habsburg, esp. for one of this standing. Of course they have been together for some time and they look very happy in the wedding photos (as they do in all none-wedding photos we have seen over the last years). I am looking forward to their religious wedding, once the Corona situation allows it. I guess it will be in Mariazell but who knows... Monaco was also not a predictable choice.

The caption of Getty refers to Francesca Thyssen-Bornemisza and not to Francesca Habsburg. I think this has been going on for some years now.

None of the outfits are to my taste, but Eleonora looks very happy in her dress & would look good in a paper bag and Francesca does what she does and as always looks like the life of the party.

Judging from Eleonora's instagram page they have hired Luc Castel for the photos. I believe he often delivers photographs to Point de Vue magazine.
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  #25  
Old 07-25-2020, 09:58 AM
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Yes looking forward to the Religious Wedding as I'm hoping the dress code will be a vast improvement on the Civil ceremony in Monaco.
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  #26  
Old 07-25-2020, 10:15 AM
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Francesca does what she does and as always looks like the life of the party.

Judging from Eleonora's instagram page they have hired Luc Castel for the photos. I believe he often delivers photographs to Point de Vue magazine.
I can assure you: She IS the life of every party
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  #27  
Old 07-25-2020, 12:26 PM
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That I know - in that case the consistent thing would be not to allow a second marriage (sacrament); as it would be impossible to marry someone that is still married. However, the 'solution' of an annulment requires the assumption that the marriage should never have taken place i.e. technically never took place (as it requires some kind of reason why that marriage was invalid from the start). I don't see what valid reason this groom would have to claim that.

Options are:
- Defect of form (invalid marriage ceremony: unlikely to be the case)
- Defect of contract (no intention to be married for life: given that they divorced rather quickly, they could probably argue so - but was that truly the case from the start? And if so, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of marriage...)
- Defect of will (some kind of error: unlikely imho)
- Defect of capacity (not allowed to marry: unlikely as well)

In general, I wonder what the most common ground is for annulment as it seems quite a few royals have been able to 'get' an annulment.
AFAIK there are two more reasons for an anulment that are accepted. One is one of the couple did not plkan to stay married for life and the other is that one did not plan to have children or did not plan to raise them Catholic. Nowadays, if they can find the right bishop, the last one is easy if the couple has had no children.

A friend of mine was divorced but the church wanted her to go on working for them, so the bishop "ordered" her to declare the stuff about the children...
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  #28  
Old 07-25-2020, 12:41 PM
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One is one of the couple did not plkan to stay married for life
Isn't that a rather strange reason given that everyone knows that the Catholic Church considers marriages being for life? Sounds like buying a car and returning it for having wheels.
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  #29  
Old 07-25-2020, 12:41 PM
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AFAIK there are two more reasons for an anulment that are accepted. One is one of the couple did not plkan to stay married for life and the other is that one did not plan to have children or did not plan to raise them Catholic. Nowadays, if they can find the right bishop, the last one is easy if the couple has had no children.

A friend of mine was divorced but the church wanted her to go on working for them, so the bishop "ordered" her to declare the stuff about the children...
Both are part of the 'Defect of contract' - the second one on the list. However, this example shows how annulment can be 'arranged' - and lying about your motives is approved and sometimes even encouraged by some bishops just to obtain the desired result.

This is my main problem with the whole annulment system; while annulment makes sense in cases where the groom or bride truly had no input in getting married (forced marriages); in most other cases it is a divorce but the church finds away around it to call it something different so they can uphold the idea that they are against divorce and remarriage while still allowing it to happen. Rather hypocritical.
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  #30  
Old 07-25-2020, 12:49 PM
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This is my main problem with the whole annulment system; while annulment makes sense in cases where the groom or bride truly had no input in getting married (forced marriages); in most other cases it is a divorce but the church finds away around it to call it something different so they can uphold the idea that they are against divorce and remarriage while still allowing it to happen. Rather hypocritical.

My Problem with the annulment system is that it is needed at all. Why no simply accept a civil divorice like the other Churches (at last here in Germany do) do it.
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  #31  
Old 07-25-2020, 01:50 PM
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My Problem with the annulment system is that it is needed at all. Why no simply accept a civil divorice like the other Churches (at last here in Germany do) do it.

The Roman Catholic church was ruled for centuriers by Italian popes. Rarely a French one popped up because the French king enforced that. So the church does what the Italians think is right, the old Italians, and they are not yet ready to accept a more modern solution.



In not so long times past, the daughter of Karl would never have married this guy, just as Karl himself would not have married the daughter of a mere Baron. He was heir and then Head of the House of Habsburg-Lorraine, who according to the House laws has the right to call himself the Emperor, as that title from 1806 onwards was connected to the Headship of the House and not of lands to be ruled over. Just like "Archduke/duchess of Austria" was not longer connected to Austria (which only had one! reigning Duke, the "Arch"-part was fake anyway, but accepted), but to the House of Habsburg.


So for "monarchists", this is a mesalliance of a daughter out of a "mesalliance" anyway, so does it matter if the groom has been married previously in a Catholic church???

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Both are part of the 'Defect of contract' - the second one on the list. However, this example shows how annulment can be 'arranged' - and lying about your motives is approved and sometimes even encouraged by some bishops just to obtain the desired result.

This is my main problem with the whole annulment system; while annulment makes sense in cases where the groom or bride truly had no input in getting married (forced marriages); in most other cases it is a divorce but the church finds away around it to call it something different so they can uphold the idea that they are against divorce and remarriage while still allowing it to happen. Rather hypocritical.

Interesting post - I wasn't aware of that! Thank you.
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  #32  
Old 07-25-2020, 03:11 PM
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IMO it' s a matter of money.
We all know that Rainer in 1992 gave some obulus to Rome and Caroline got rid of the Junot marriage.....
Only pity that Stefano was already dead
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  #33  
Old 07-25-2020, 03:45 PM
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My Problem with the annulment system is that it is needed at all. Why no simply accept a civil divorice like the other Churches (at last here in Germany do) do it.

The Roman Catholic Church views marriage as a sacrament, which other churches do not (at least not Protestant churches).

Because of that, a marriage performed in a Catholic church can only be undone (annulled) by the church. As I understand it, representatives of the church study the case to determine if the rules or conditions for a valid, sacramental marriage were met. Obviously, this can't be done by a civil authority unfamiliar with those rules and conditions.

Another analogy - because the Roman Catholic Church closed the door and locked it, only it has the key to unlock it.

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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
So for "monarchists", this is a mesalliance of a daughter out of a "mesalliance" anyway, so does it matter if the groom has been married previously in a Catholic church???

You make a good point regarding the traditional monarchists, but it may be that the couple themselves want to be married in the Catholic church, meaning an annulment was necessary.
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  #34  
Old 07-25-2020, 04:00 PM
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You make a good point regarding the traditional monarchists, but it may be that the couple themselves want to be married in the Catholic church, meaning an annulment was necessary.
I assume that it's the couple themselves who wish to be married in the Catholic Church. Either from religious beliefs or tradition or even "just what's expected". This is especially as it is the bride's first wedding and it may be what she wants - the full works.

Just as an aside, I do find it interesting when what would seem on the surface to be a "good" match today would be considered a *very* unequal match in the past, as in the case of the bride's parents.
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  #35  
Old 07-25-2020, 04:05 PM
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Just as an aside, I do find it interesting when what would seem on the surface to be a "good" match today would be considered a *very* unequal match in the past, as in the case of the bride's parents.
Absolutely! Think of the uproar when Archduke Franz Ferdinand married Countess Sophie Chotek! And she was much more aristocratic than Francesca, who was born a mere Baroness!

I enjoy it when former royals marry former royals, but I see nothing wrong when they find happiness with a non-royal, as Eleonore has.
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  #36  
Old 07-25-2020, 04:11 PM
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Just as an aside, I do find it interesting when what would seem on the surface to be a "good" match today would be considered a *very* unequal match in the past, as in the case of the bride's parents.
Let's just say that Regina and Otto weren't thrilled about the marriage...
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  #37  
Old 07-25-2020, 04:13 PM
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Let's just say that Regina and Otto weren't thrilled about the marriage...
Didn't some of the family refuse to attend the wedding ceremony?
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  #38  
Old 07-25-2020, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
The Roman Catholic Church views marriage as a sacrament, which other churches do not (at least not Protestant churches).

Because of that, a marriage performed in a Catholic church can only be undone (annulled) by the church. As I understand it, representatives of the church study the case to determine if the rules or conditions for a valid, sacramental marriage were met. Obviously, this can't be done by a civil authority unfamiliar with those rules and conditions.

Another analogy - because the Roman Catholic Church closed the door and locked it, only it has the key to unlock it.
Shouldn't they look into that when they conduct the marriage instead of afterwards when the couple wants out and is looking for an 'acceptable' reason?! Do they also study marriages that remain in-tact to ensure they are all valid, sacramental marriages? If not, shouldn't they do so if somewhat regularly they find upon further examination -in the case of a divorce- that marriages were invalid?!
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  #39  
Old 07-25-2020, 04:21 PM
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Shouldn't they look into that when they conduct the marriage instead of afterwards when the couple wants out and is looking for an 'acceptable' reason?! Do they also study marriages that remain in-tact to ensure they are all valid, sacramental marriages? If not, shouldn't they do so if somewhat regularly they find upon further examination -in the case of a divorce- that marriages were invalid?!
I've often wondered that myself.
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  #40  
Old 07-25-2020, 04:37 PM
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Wasn't Gabriela of Habsburg marriage annulled following her divorce?
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