Cdr. Alexander Ramsay and Princess Patricia of Connaught - 1919

[Marengo]

On 27 February 1919 Commander Alexander Ramsay married princess Patricia of Connaught, daughter of prince Artur of the UK, Duke of Connaught and Princess Luise Margaretha of Prussia. The couple married in the Westminster Abbey:

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[Menarue]

When I was living in what was then called Lourenço Marques in Mozambique I was living in a street called Princess Patricia Street, I had to ask who it was named after at the time as I had no idea, and it was exactly this Princess shown in that lovely wedding photo. It is nice to see her at last.

 

[hennybenny]

Who is the girl next to the groom? It's so unusual to see a member of a royal wedding party with long, loose hair. Are my eyes playing tricks on me?

 

[mariaanna415]

Who is the girl next to the groom? It's so unusual to see a member of a royal wedding party with long, loose hair. Are my eyes playing tricks on me?

yes she's got her hair down and I think it's Mary, Princess Royal even though she wasn't called that then. not sure but the age and nose fit and she was a bridesmaid at that wedding

 

[kak]

Princess Mary is on Patricias right. I believe the girl on Alexanders right is one of his relatives. I've seen a picture where everyone is identified, I'll have to see if I can find it. The smaller girl is Princess Ingrid of Sweden.

I found the picture and she is identified as Lady Ida Ramsay

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Is the Connaught Fringe Tiara still in Lady Patricia Ramsay's family? I saw a photograph of Lady Patricia wearing the Connaught Fringe Tiara at the coronation of King George VI in 1937.

 

[Tilia C.]

Is the Connaught Fringe Tiara still in Lady Patricia Ramsay's family? I saw a photograph of Lady Patricia wearing the Connaught Fringe Tiara at the coronation of King George VI in 1937.

There is nothing known about a sale of this tiara. So it could still be in the Family. But it also could have been sold privately.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Patricia wed Alexander.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPo1vZOt0eo

 

[Curryong]

The usual crowds on what looks like quite a chilly day in February. Many men still in uniform, and a full roll-up of royalty. Apart from Patricia being the Duke of Connaught's daughter and a popular figure in Canada, really all I know about this union is that it was the first royal wedding to take place in Westminster Abbey since Tudor times and that Lady Pat renounced her styling of Princess for the rank of Duke's daughter. At 32 she was quite an old bride by the Royal standards of the day, and produced one child, Alexander, who was born later that year.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Did Princess Patricia renounce her title before or after her marriage to Alexander Ramsey?

Princess Patricia's possible marriage prospects included King Alfonso XIII of Spain and Crown Prince Luis Felipe of Portugal. She could have been a Crown Princess or a Queen. Instead she chose to be a Lady.

Princess Patricia wore a white dress with a silver lace underskirt, described in The Illustrated London News as "in the Venetian style". It was designed by couture house Reville & Rossiter.

 

[JR76]

Did Princess Patricia renounce her title before or after her marriage to Alexander Ramsey?

She entered the church Princess of Connaught and left as Lady Ramsay.

 

[Gawin]

Yes, according to George V's warrant dated 25 February 1919 she became Lady Patricia "on and from the solemnization of her intended marriage."

Royal Styles and Titles of Great Britain: Documents

If the marriage hadn't take place as intended on 27 February she would have remained HRH Princess Patricia.

 

[JR76]

Yes, according to George V's warrant dated 25 February 1919 she became Lady Patricia "on and from the solemnization of her intended marriage."

Royal Styles and Titles of Great Britain: Documents

If the marriage hadn't take place as intended on 27 February she would have remained HRH Princess Patricia.

What a great link. Thank you

 

[DistantCousin]

Princess Patricia

I have always wondered. Why did Princess Patricia renounce her title? Was it the King's wish. Her future husband's wish or her own decision?

 

[Curryong]

Princess Patsy always seemed to be an independent sort of woman, who knew her own mind. I doubt it was the King's wish. I think she decided for herself.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

The wedding of Princess Patricia to Alexander inside Westminster Abbey
http://www.alamy.com/1919-the-weddi...of-connaught-to-commander-image154265307.html

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I have always wondered. Why did Princess Patricia renounce her title? Was it the King's wish. Her future husband's wish or her own decision?

I do not have any information concerning Patricia's renunciation, but I suspect it was the wish of King George V, who clearly wanted to reduce the number of royals. When he was king, not only Princess Patricia of Connaught, but also Princess Maud of Fife, Prince Alastair of Connaught, and the Battenberg and Teck branches of the Royal Family were stripped of their royal styles. He was furthermore the first monarch to issue letters patent limiting the number of princes and princesses.

 

[Gawin]

According to royal expert and genealogist Marlene A. Eilers, the renunciation was Patricia's choice: "When she married, she chose to relinquish her royal titles, receiving in exchange the title of Lady Patricia Ramsay, with precedence before the Marchionesses of England."

Source: Marlene A. Eilers, Queen Victoria's Descendants (Rosvall Royal Books, c1997), pp. 100-101.

See also the Royal Warrant, published in the London Gazette two days before her marriage. She walked into the church as HRH Princess Patricia and left as Lady Patricia:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31203/page/2819

 

[Tatiana Maria]

According to royal expert and genealogist Marlene A. Eilers, the renunciation was Patricia's choice: "When she married, she chose to relinquish her royal titles, receiving in exchange the title of Lady Patricia Ramsay, with precedence before the Marchionesses of England."

Source: Marlene A. Eilers, Queen Victoria's Descendants (Rosvall Royal Books, c1997), pp. 100-101.

Thank you, Gawin. But was the expert speaking about the words of the royal warrant, or the private basis of the decision? Without any more information, and given the similar treatment of Princess Maud of Fife and the numerous other renunciations of royal and aristocratic titles during George V's reign, I continue to have suspicions that the idea proceeded from the king.

 

[Gawin]

She was speaking about the private basis of the decision. She doesn’t cite a source, but her view is consistent with the following news item, published in the Times (London), February 27, 1919, p. 3, col. 4 [the boldfacing is mine]:

“In accordance with the express wish of Princess Patricia, and with the concurrence of the Duke of Connaught, the King has approved that H.R.H. shall relinquish her Royal title, styling, and rank, and assume the name of Lady Patricia Ramsay.
Outside the Court and private precedence of the Royal Family, the King has granted to Lady Patricia Ramsay precedence immediately before Marchionesses.”

I don’t think Patricia’s situation was comparable with that of Princess Maud of Fife, Prince Alastair of Connaught, or the Battenbergs & Tecks, at least in terms of George V's wish to limit the H.R.H. As the daughter of a son of a British monarch, Patricia was entitled to the H.R.H. under the terms of George's own Letters Patent. Princess Maud and Prince Alastair weren't. And the Battenbergs and Tecks renounced their German titles, in return for British peerages, because of World War I.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

She was speaking about the private basis of the decision. She doesn’t cite a source, but her view is consistent with the following news item, published in the Times (London), February 27, 1919, p. 3, col. 4 [the boldfacing is mine]:

“In accordance with the express wish of Princess Patricia, and with the concurrence of the Duke of Connaught, the King has approved that H.R.H. shall relinquish her Royal title, styling, and rank, and assume the name of Lady Patricia Ramsay.
Outside the Court and private precedence of the Royal Family, the King has granted to Lady Patricia Ramsay precedence immediately before Marchionesses.”

Thank you again. I am glad Princess Patricia had a real choice.

I don’t think Patricia’s situation was comparable with that of Princess Maud of Fife, Prince Alastair of Connaught, or the Battenbergs & Tecks, at least in terms of George V's wish to limit the H.R.H. As the daughter of a son of a British monarch, Patricia was entitled to the H.R.H. under the terms of George's own Letters Patent. Princess Maud and Prince Alastair weren't.

That is an excellent point!

And the Battenbergs and Tecks renounced their German titles, in return for British peerages, because of World War I.

I think King George's approach to the Battenbergs and Tecks was influenced by his wish to limit royal titles. After the renunciation of their German titles, the king could have chosen to allow them to use the style of HH Prince (no different to the Schleswig-Holstein sisters) but he preferred to reduce them to non-royal rank.

 

[Gawin]

I think King George's approach to the Battenbergs and Tecks was influenced by his wish to limit royal titles. After the renunciation of their German titles, the king could have chosen to allow them to use the style of HH Prince (no different to the Schleswig-Holstein sisters) but he preferred to reduce them to non-royal rank.

I believe you are correct. It seems the Battenbergs and Tecks not only renounced their German titles, they also gave up the British "Highness," granted to the children of Princess Beatrice and Henry of Battenberg in 1886 and to the Tecks in 1911. I suspect the King's Schleswig-Holstein cousins were allowed to remain Princesses (of Nothing) because they were middle-aged women with no children and their titles would die with them.

Victoria of Hesse, the wife of Louis of Battenberg who became Marquess of Milford Haven, was entitled to remain a Princess (like her Schleswig cousins) but chose not to:

"It was suggested that I continue to be Princess Victoria something or other of Nothing, but what is good enough for my husband is good for me."

Source: Ilana D. Miller, The Four Graces: Queen Victoria's Hessian Granddaughters (2nd ed., 2014), p. 150.

 

[Denville]

Thank you, Gawin. But was the expert speaking about the words of the royal warrant, or the private basis of the decision? Without any more information, and given the similar treatment of Princess Maud of Fife and the numerous other renunciations of royal and aristocratic titles during George V's reign, I continue to have suspicions that the idea proceeded from the king.

Unlikely. Patriica was something of a radical, and probably wished to give up her royal title, on marriage, and to use a rank comparable to that of her husband..

 

[An Ard Ri]

Princess Patricia of Connaught was possibly the only HRH in the British RF to relinquish her style and title in living memory?

 

[Denville]

I think so....

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I believe you are correct. It seems the Battenbergs and Tecks not only renounced their German titles, they also gave up the British "Highness," granted to the children of Princess Beatrice and Henry of Battenberg in 1886 and to the Tecks in 1911. I suspect the King's Schleswig-Holstein cousins were allowed to remain Princesses (of Nothing) because they were middle-aged women with no children and their titles would die with them.

Victoria of Hesse, the wife of Louis of Battenberg who became Marquess of Milford Haven, was entitled to remain a Princess (like her Schleswig cousins) but chose not to:

"It was suggested that I continue to be Princess Victoria something or other of Nothing, but what is good enough for my husband is good for me."

Source: Ilana D. Miller, The Four Graces: Queen Victoria's Hessian Granddaughters (2nd ed., 2014), p. 150.

What would have been done with the HGDH style of Victoria of Hesse had she accepted the offer to become a "Princess of Nothing"? Would she have retained it, renounced it or seen it substituted with the style of HRH or HH?

 

[JR76]

What would have been done with the HGDH style of Victoria of Hesse had she accepted the offer to become a "Princess of Nothing"? Would she have retained it, renounced it or seen it substituted with the style of HRH or HH?

Given that her Augustenborg cousins became princessess of "Nothing" and retained their style of HH given to the children of Princess Helena by Queen Victoria in 1866 it's easy to speculate that Lady Victoria would have received the same treatment and been able to retain her style of HGDH. (Though did she ever use it as married?). Another point of view could be that the acceptance of the Augustenborg style was because it was British in origin while the Hesse style was purely of German origin and would therefore have been seen as relinquished with all the other German styles and titles of the Royal family. It's a pity that the forthcoming publishing of her diaries apparently cuts off at the start of WWI since it'd been interesting to see if she'd written anything about her husband having to relinquish his German styles and titles since she apparently had a lot of opinions on the matter and despised the title of Marques which she's alleged to have said that she found tacky and that she'd much preferred for her and Louis to simply be known as Mr and Mrs Mountbatten.