Questions about Princess Margriet's Family

[Genevieve]

I am wondering if anyone can tell me something about Princess Margriet's daughter in laws Marilene and Annette, and her 2 potential other daughter in laws, the girlfriends of Floris and Pieter-Christiaan?

I am most interested in what kind of education they had, jobs or careers before getting married, and about their families. I think Marilene has a sister who has a child around Anna or Lucas's age?

[Tina]

Marilène

father: Henri (Hans) van den Broek (Minister for Foreign Affairs)

mother: Josephine Adriana Antoinette van Schendel

sister named Caroline van Weede-van den Broek, she has got three sons:

Jonkheer Olivier van Weede
Jonkheer Wouter Steven van Weede - 2001, April 08th/Prague
Jonkheer Philip Rudolph Henri van Weede - 2002, October 12th/Prague

and is married with Jonkheer Willem Theodoor van Weede

about her education you can read here:

http://www.koninklijkhuis.nl/UK/royal_hous...esmarilene.html

Annette

father: Ulrich Adriaan Sekrève - 30.08.1946/Gravenhage

mother: Jolanda C. de Haan

her parents married 1971, October 23rd and are divorced

sisters named Marjolein and José

http://www.koninklijkhuis.nl/UK/royal_hous...sesannette.html

[Genevieve]

Thank you Tina.

[suturegeisha]

Forgive my obvious lack of expertise when it comes to Princess Margriet and her family, but, I have a question regarding her children's titles. Why are Floris, Pieter-Christiaan, Maurits, and Bernhard Jr. all titled Prince of Oranje-Nassau?

I know Princess Irene's children are Prince/Princess of Bourbon de Parma, and I'm assuming that Princess Christina's children don't have titles because she married a Roman Catholic [correct me if I'm wrong]. Still, why would Margiet's children get titles? I thought that titles like that are usually passed on through the father, not the mother [for example, Princess Martha-Louise's daughter is just Maud Angelica Behn, not Princess Maud of Norway, and the Infantas Elena and Cristina's children have no titles either].
Any help is appreciated!
Thanks.
-Kara-

[Genevieve]

I am not sure about the rights being passed on through the father's side in this case, but I think Princess Margriet's children likely got titles because she sought government permission. Maybe if Princess Christina hadn't married a Roman Catholic, her children would have similar titles too. But I'm not really sure.

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by suturegeisha

Forgive my obvious lack of expertise when it comes to Princess Margriet and her family, but, I have a question regarding her children's titles. Why are Floris, Pieter-Christiaan, Maurits, and Bernhard Jr. all titled Prince of Oranje-Nassau?

I know Princess Irene's children are Prince/Princess of Bourbon de Parma, and I'm assuming that Princess Christina's children don't have titles because she married a Roman Catholic [correct me if I'm wrong]. Still, why would Margiet's children get titles? I thought that titles like that are usually passed on through the father, not the mother [for example, Princess Martha-Louise's daughter is just Maud Angelica Behn, not Princess Maud of Norway, and the Infantas Elena and Cristina's children have no titles either].
Any help is appreciated!
Thanks.
-Kara-

Princess Margriet married with Parliamentary approval and by royal decree her children became HH Prince of Oranje-Nassau.
Religion isn't a factor but parliamentary approval. If Princess Irene and Princess Christina got parliamentary approval for their marriages their children would probably have the same titles of Princess Margriet's children.

[Emily]

Are Annette's parents divorced? They look quite together in some of the civil and religious wedding photos.

[Marengo]

They are divorced and both have other partners, but they appeared together at the wedding (like Letizia's parents for example)

[HMQueenElizabethII]

But is that Princess Margriet title is still Her Royal Highness Princess Margriet of The Netherlands?So how about Irene?We still call her "Princess" and as sister of Queen Beatrix so is she still Her Royal Highness like in England the late Princess Margaret was as the Queen sister and she had title Her Royal Highness?

[SpiffyBallerina]

I think Irene is still a princess of O-N and of Lippe B. (through her father).

[Marengo]

officially Irene and Christina are still HRH and Princesses of The Netherlands. However, Irene prefers to be referred to as mrs. van Lippe-Biesterfield.
Prince Johan-Friso kept his HRH (as son of a reigning Queen) but lost the title 'Prince of the Netherlands', another system to title members of the RF (it is such a mess). He is also made Count of Orange-Nassau, otherwise his family could not inherit that title. The queen can only ennoble members of the Royal House, which Luana is not. So in order for her to get a title the queen had to give her secondd son a hereditairy title. In contrast, the children of Prince Constantijn, who are still part of the Royal House, were created Counts of Orange-Nassau themselves.

[Alexandria]

Originally Posted by Marengo

officially Irene and Christina are still HRH and Princesses of The Netherlands. However, Irene prefers to be referred to as mrs. van Lippe-Biesterfield.
Prince Johan-Friso kept his HRH (as son of a reigning Queen) but lost the title 'Prince of the Netherlands', another system to title members of the RF (it is such a mess). He is also made Count of Orange-Nassau, otherwise his family could not inherit that title. The queen can only ennoble members of the Royal House, which Luana is not. So in order for her to get a title the queen had to give her secondd son a hereditairy title. In contrast, the children of Prince Constantijn, who are still part of the Royal House, were created Counts of Orange-Nassau themselves.

This is indeed very confusing Marengo! And here I thought I had a pretty good grasp of titles in the Dutch royal family. Could you or anyone else break down the present names and titles of the various members of the royal family and the Queen's family?

For example, I know that Maurits' children carry the surname of Lippe-Biesterfield after Prince Bernhard, since he had only daughters no sons to carry on his name, while Maurits' brother Bernhard Jr.'s two kids carry the surname of van Vollenhoven. What are the surnames of Christina and Irene's children? Guillermo and Bourbon-Parma -- but do they carry any Dutch names or titles, too?

[Marengo]

I will give it a try:

Prince Claus received the title HRH Prince of The Netherlands by royal decree.

Crownprince = HRH the prince of Orange, Prince of the Netherlands (oficially they never use the title crownprince) His last name is 'van Oranje-Nassau'.

Maxima = HRH Princess Maxima of The Netherlands (NOT Princess of Orange) by royal decree.

Alexia, Amalia, Margriet, Constantijn are HRH Prince(sse)s of The Netherlands by birth and with successionrights, their surnames are 'van Oranje-Nassau'.

Irene and Christina lost their rights but are still officially HRH Princesses of The Netherlands

Johan-Friso is HRH Prince of Orange-Nassau, Count of Orange-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg (note that both his brothers are NOT Counts of Orange-Nassau The last two title are are hereditairy, can only be passed by males. He did not stay HRH Prince of The Netherlands, like his aunts.

Princess Mabel is HH Princess Mabel of Orange-Nassau, by courtesey. Not an HRH like her husband

Luana did not receive any personal title but she is Countess van Oranje-Nassau, jonkvrouwe van Amstberg because that part of her fathers title is hereditairy. With the surname 'van Oranje-Nassau van Amstberg'

Laurentien is HRH Princess Laurentien of the Netherlands due to her marriage, NOT a royal decree like Maxima, so if she divorces she will lose the title.

Claus-Casimir and Eloise were both CREATED Counts of Orange-Nassau, Jonkheer/vrouw van Amstberg with the surname 'van Oranje-Nassau-van Amstberg'. Notice that the only distinction between these 2 and Luana is that CC and E were created Counts. That they are in line of the throne and Luana is not doesn't make a difference to the titles.

Now, Prof. Pieter van Vollenhoven did not receive a title at all (contrairy to Prince Claus).

Maurits, Bernhard, Pieter-Christiaan and Floris are HH Princes of Orange-Nassau, their wives can use their husbands title: HRH Princess of Orange-Nassau. The titles are personal, not hereditairy. And there is no distinction made between members of the royal house (Maurits, marilene, Bernhard, Annette) and the people who are not members of the Royal House (Pieter-Christiaan, Anita, Floris, Aimee). They all bear the surnae 'van Oranje-Nassau'. Notice that Johan Friso bears the same title but is an HRH. Mabel has the HH as well.

The children of Maurits do not inherit any title (in contrast, the children of Friso and Constantijn do) and bear the surname 'van Lippe-Biesterfield-van Vollenhoven'.

The children of Bernhard, PC and Floris are/ will eb surnamed just 'van Vollenhoven', without any hereditairy title as well.

The children of Princess Christina do not have any title at all and have their fathers last name, Guillermo. This in contrast to Luana who was created countess by the Queen. The Bourbon-Parma's are incorperated in the dutch nobility as HRH Princes de Bourbon-Parme, but they do not have any dutch title as Luana has.

Now, if anybody sees any sence in this mess I applaud him/her as to me it seems utterly rediculous. Especially strange is it that so many parents have other surnames then their children.
The thing which buggs me most is that Margriets grand children have no title at all. They could have made the van Vollenhoven name noble, let's say Count Pieter van Vollenhoven, etc. His family was already a parician family, so it wouldn't have been to strange. Another thing which annoys me is that there is no distinction between Luana and Claus-Casimir/Eloise.

[Alexandria]

Thanks very much Marengo for trying to sort out everything. The last name thing is very confusing, but what I find most confusing is who amongst this group is an HRH or HH and what titles are inherited and which ones are not.

I do agree that the van Vollenhoven grandchildren should be granted some sort of nobility-equivalent titles (do the Dutch have a nobility?). I think the services of their grandparents, Margriet and Pieter has been extraordinary and I think it would be nice for there to be some more permanent, long-lasting record of that service in future decades to come when the van Vollenhoven family will be less of a presence as Willem and Constantijn's children get older and take on a more active role in the monarchy.

[samitude]

Yes, I believe the Dutch have a nobility. Didn't Willem-Alexander's former girlfriend, Emily, marry Dutch count? I believe Maxima's good friend from Argentina married into the Dutch nobility also.

[SpiffyBallerina]

Thanks for explaining all that, Marengo. It is very complicated, but it makes sense.

I disagree with previous posters in that I think the Van Vollenhoven grandchildren need no titles. They are very far from the throne and it complicates things too much to have such a huge nobility. If they had titles, then they could pass them on and eventually everyone would be noble in some right or another! I think it is wise to limit the royal and noble titles (much like was done in Denmark) because it is more efficient and no one wants it to be like Saudi Arabia with about 500 princes running around. Royal and noble titles must be exclusive or they mean nothing.

[Squidgy]

Originally Posted by Marengo

The thing which buggs me most is that Margriets grand children have no title at all. They could have made the van Vollenhoven name noble, let's say Count Pieter van Vollenhoven, etc. His family was already a parician family, so it wouldn't have been to strange. Another thing which annoys me is that there is no distinction between Luana and Claus-Casimir/Eloise.

First, yes, thanks Marengo for taking the time to figure/write this all out. Yikes it is confusing, and I have learned a lot (whether I can remember it all is another thing).

Regarding Margriet's grandchildren, is there a possibility that Margriet & Pieter have actively discouraged the Queen from giving Pieter any title of nobility because they want their grandchildren to at least have the possibility of a "normal" life? There have been so many unwarranted invasions of the privacy of their sons & their families (most recently honeymoon pictures of Floris) that maybe they hope if their grandchildren don't hold any noble titles then the press will leave them alone.

I think Beatrix is very grateful for the contributions that Pieter has made over the years. Now that dear Claus is gone, I see Pieter as sort of the patriarch of the family in a way. And, as we have seen many times, he is a wonderful escort to the Queen during many of her public engagements. (He is in fact so good, that in Canada, one of our most respected and knowledgeable journalists at the CBC incorrectly identified him during the remembrance ceremony at Groesbeek in May, as the Queen's husband!!!)

I just find it hard to believe that Beatrix wouldn't have by now offered him a higher title than just "Mr." or "Prof." (or as the official website now calls him - Prof. Mr. Pieter ...)

[Maxie]

Marengo, I totally agree with you! What a mess! I always found that it didn't make any sense at all, that whole Dutch title thing. Thanks for explaining it (to the highest possible degree ) because I know finally have a little sense of how our royals are supposed to be called...

[Marengo]

There was a book about Pieter a few years ago by Dorine ...(forgot the last name) and apparently it was Beatrix and Bernhard who were against Pieter getting a title in the 60-ties (or early seventies). I believe Juliana had the wish to create him Prince of The Netherlands as well, but Bernhard and Beatrix were afraid for the precedent that this would create (as they clearly do not stick to any precedent it was an unjustified fear). I think it was more the principle that counted then their personal feelings about Pieter.

I believe there was also some talk of making him a count of something, but it was considered hopelessly outdated and only Juliana was in favour (nothing is known about the feelings of Pieter and Margriet, but they probably do not ind to much, they seem a modest couple)

The book however suggests that in the 70-ties there was not to much love lost between Beatrix and Pieter. To what extend this is true I cannot know (neither can the author). The author however aknowledges that the present relations between Beatrix and Pieter are very well, they seem to have fun together and Beatrix once publically thanked him and her sister for all the support they gave her during her reign. She also recently offered Pieter the highest order, she usually bestows on heads of state. This is a clear sign of her respect for Pieter and her aknowledgement for his contributions to the monarchy and to the country (and well deserved!).

To spiffyballerina: in Denmark the sons of Joachim and Alexandra are HH Princes of Denmark. The daughters of Prince Ingolf (or his brother) are Countesses of Rosenborg, like other family members further away from the throne. So they DO receive titles. I agree that there should be a restriction to the HRH Princes of The Netherlands title, but making Margriets grandchildren Counts van Vollenhoven wouldn't hurt anybody.

I would suggest that the sons daughters of the King/Queen and of the hweir are HRH Princes of The Netherlands, the persons in the 2nd line like Eloise, CC, Maurits etc are HH Princes of Orange-Nassau, and give their children a noble title like in Denmark, counts of something. This way the distinction is clear.

To squidgy: I do not think that for the press it makes a difference if they are titled or not, what count is their looks and how close to the monarch they are. Take for example Carlotte Casiraghi and Zara Phillips, who do not have a title but who get more attention in the press then for example HH Princess Elisabeth of Denmark. I think that the press attention for the van Vollenhovens will fade away with time. They are all perfectly able to live a private live now as well, eventhough with some intrusions (not to many). Only the attention for Marilene and Maurits remains higher then for the others, mainly because of their good looks I think.

To Alexandria: The only people who have a title which their children can inherit are Friso and Claus-Casimir, Counts van Oranje-Nassau van Amstberg.

To samitude: Emily Bremers, the ex girlfriend of WA married Jonkheer Roderik van der Wijck (a squire/Lord), Samantha Deane (friend of Maxima) married a Baron Rengers and the ex girlfriend of both Friso and Maurits, Elisabeth Fabius (daughter of general Fabius) married an italian Prince.

[Squidgy]

Originally Posted by Marengo

To squidgy: I do not think that for the press it makes a difference if they are titled or not, what count is their looks and how close to the monarch they are. Take for example Carlotte Casiraghi and Zara Phillips, who do not have a title but who get more attention in the press then for example HH Princess Elisabeth of Denmark. I think that the press attention for the van Vollenhovens will fade away with time. They are all perfectly able to live a private live now as well, eventhough with some intrusions (not to many). Only the attention for Marilene and Maurits remains higher then for the others, mainly because of their good looks I think.

Marengo, we sure kept you busy with the above posts. Thanks for your in-depth, thoughtful response.

Yes, you have a good point - physical appearances and how close one is in line of succession do likely to a large extent determine how much press attention one receives. However, I think the mere act of having a title does also mean that you are more likely to receive more press exposure. Look at the British tabloids (if you dare ). They are always talking about Lord X who has a drug problem, or Lady Y who is having an affair. Even if they are Lords & Ladies that the average Brit has never heard of, they still make it into the papers, I think mainly because they are titled. So personally, I think it is good that Margriet & Pieter's grandchildren do not have titles.

Originally Posted by Marengo

She also recently offered Pieter the highest order, she usually bestows on heads of state. This is a clear sign of her respect for Pieter and her aknowledgement for his contributions to the monarchy and to the country (and well deserved!).

That's neat - I never heard that before. When did this happen and did it change the way Pieter is addressed?