2009 Identification of the remains found in July 2007

[AGRBear]

Annoucement made March 19, 2008 from Russia:

RIA Novosti - Russia - Excavations for Romanov remains may resume in summer

>> ...[in part]....
Russia
Excavations for Romanov remains may resume in summer
16:33 | 19/ 03/ 2008


YEKATERINBURG, March 19 (RIA Novosti) - Archaeologists plan to resume excavations this summer in the southern Urals, where the remains of the last Russian tsar's children were allegedly found last July, a local archaeologist said Wednesday.<<



It appears the 2 pits will be examined, again, this coming summer.

 

[lexi4]

Bear,
Look at this line: "Nikolai Nevolin, the region's chief forensic expert, said in late January that DNA tests conducted in Yekaterinburg and Moscow proved positive. He added that the final results would be published in April or May of 2008."
Did I miss something? Did DNA testing conclude that the remains belonged to the two children? Or am I reading that wrong. If that is the case, why do they want to search for relics that might have belonged to the family?
Lexi

 

[Russophile]

I have doubts. You all know that. I think they botched the whole thing up again just to try and make themselves (The Russians) look good. But what does it matter?

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Those are indeed the remains of Anastasia and her brother Alexei. I am postive those are the two missing members of the imperial family.The imperial family didn't survive on that night.There's no need to suggest that.

 

[lexi4]

Those are indeed the remains of Anastasia and her brother Alexei. I am postive those are the two missing members of the imperial family.The imperial family didn't survive on that night.There's no need to suggest that.

Have you read or seen the DNA report for the latest remains of the young woman and you man? Is that why you are positive? If so, could you post a link?

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Yes as a matter of fact I can post a link from the Sydney Morning Herald. Even thought the results didn't come out I am postive that those are the bones of Anastasia and Alexei. Even before July 2007, I knew Anastasia was the missing girl from the grave all along.

Remains of Russian czar's heir found

The remains of the last czar's son and heir to the Russian throne, missing since the royal family was gunned down by Bolsheviks in a basement room nine decades ago, may have at last been found, an archaeologist has said.
Bones found in a burned area in the ground near Yekaterinburg, the city where Czar Nicholas II and his wife and children were held prisoner and shot in 1918, belong to a boy and a young woman roughly the ages of the czar's 13-year-old son Alexei and a daughter whose remains have also never been found, Sergei Pogorelov said.
If confirmed, the find would solve a persistent mystery and fill in a missing chapter in the story of the doomed family - victims of the violent 1917 Bolshevik Revolution that ushered in more than 70 years of Communist rule.
It comes almost a decade after remains identified as those of Nicholas, his wife and three of their daughters were reburied in a ceremony made possible by the Soviet collapse but shadowed by statements of doubt - including from within the Russian Orthodox Church - about their authenticity.
The spot where the remains were found this summer appears to correspond to a site described in writing by Yakov Yurovsky, the leader of the family's killers, said Pogorelov, deputy head of the archaeological research department at a regional centre for the preservation of historical and cultural monuments in Yekaterinburg.
"An anthropologist has determined that the bones belong to two young individuals - a young male he found was aged roughly 10-13 and a young woman about 18-23," he told NTV television by telephone.
Nicholas abdicated in 1917 as revolutionary fervor swept Russia, and he and his family were detained. The next year, they were sent to the Ural Mountains city of Yekaterinburg, where a firing squad executed them on July 17, 1918.
Historians say Communist guards lined up and shot Nicholas, his wife Alexandra, their five children and four attendants in a small room in the basement of a nobleman's house where they were held.
The bodies were loaded in a truck and initially disposed of in a mine shaft but then moved, according to most accounts.
The Bolsheviks who killed the czar apparently mutilated and hid the bodies because they did not want the remains of the family - especially those of the heir Alexei - to become objects of worship or spark opposition to their new regime.
Parts of the royal bodies were exhumed in 1991 - the year the Soviet Union fell apart, ending Communist rule - and reburied in the imperial-era capital, St Petersburg, in 1998.
But two skeletons have never been found - Alexei and a daughter scientists believe was Maria.
Scientific tests indicated the bones of Anastasia, a daughter some have said survived the shooting, were among the remains buried.
The Russian Orthodox Church canonised Nicholas, Alexandra, Alexei and his four sisters as martyrs in 2000.
But the church cited the two missing corpses and questions over whether the recovered bones were actually those of the royal family in its decision to scale down its participation in the 1998 burial ceremony.
Historian Edvard Radzinsky, the author of a book about Nicholas II, told NTV that if the remains are confirmed to those of Alexei and a sister, it would prove the authenticity of the earlier find by providing "documentary affirmation of what is written in Yurovsky's notes."
According to NTV, a 1934 report based on Yurovsky's words indicated that the bodies of nine victims were doused with sulfuric acid and buried along a road, while those of Alexei and a sister were burned and left in a pit nearby.

 

[AGRBear]

Bear,
Look at this line: "Nikolai Nevolin, the region's chief forensic expert, said in late January that DNA tests conducted in Yekaterinburg and Moscow proved positive. He added that the final results would be published in April or May of 2008."
Did I miss something? Did DNA testing conclude that the remains belonged to the two children? Or am I reading that wrong. If that is the case, why do they want to search for relics that might have belonged to the family?
Lexi

I don't believe the word "positive" means the test for DNA and mtDNA and hemophilia has been established and prove they are the missing royal children. I believe it just means that they achieved the extraction of some DNA.

From what I understand, it won't be until next month (April), May or even longer to establish that the two remains are the children of Nicholas II and Alexandra.


AGRBear

>> "There are plans to resume the excavations...to find items belonging to the Romanov family. This will make it clear whether the remains belong to the tsar's children," said Sergei Pogorelov, a senior archaeological expert at a local research center. <<

Addressing your question about returning to the two pits to "find items belonging to the Romanov family" is puzzling. It's not buttons or jewels or a sailor shirt which proves or disproves the remains are the two missing royal children of Nicholas II and Alexandra.

AGRBear

Those are indeed the remains of Anastasia and her brother Alexei. I am postive those are the two missing members of the imperial family.The imperial family didn't survive on that night.There's no need to suggest that.

Most of us realize that many of you already believe, without evidence of the DNA results, that the remains belong to Anastasia and Alexei. We respect your beliefs and need for a closure.

Some of us have a lot of questions, (DNA results, why are there two pits instead of one, etc. etc.), to be answered before we reach any kind of conclusion about the remains found in the two pits this last July.

AGRBear

 

[lexi4]

Yes as a matter of fact I can post a link from the Sydney Morning Herald. Even thought the results didn't come out I am postive that those are the bones of Anastasia and Alexei. Even before July 2007, I knew Anastasia was the missing girl from the grave all along...

Thank you for posting that article. As I expected, there is nothing conclusive yet. We have to wait. So while you may be very certain, I prefer to see what science tells us.
I do agree with bear that by the got positive results, they are talking about the DNA. The were able to get DNA from the bones they found. Time will tell.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Your welcome!

I don't have the lastest news. The DNA is still in process. We will have to wait a few more months. You are right, lexi4 time will tell. I respect your opinion it's best to see what science will tell us. I agree, Bear that it will probably take a couple more months for them to finnish the DNA tests. Well, I hope that I am right with my opinion. Some people think that those remains are of Mashka and Alexei.

 

[ChatNoir]

When the bones were found in July, 2007, we were promised DNA results by October. Then it was December. Then it was March. Now it is April/May. Must be hard to get the results they want.
(I guess this post will be removed promptly.)

ChatNoir

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Well, DNA does usually take a long time it isn't exactly known when it will be finnished because it take such a long time. Time will explain. According to the remains that were discovered in 1991, they were believed to be 9 of the 11 people murdered in the cellar room. Anastasia and Alexei's bodies were missing from the grave so the remains of July 2007 are most likely believed to be of Anastasia and Alexei.

 

[lexi4]

When the bones were found in July, 2007, we were promised DNA results by October. Then it was December. Then it was March. Now it is April/May. Must be hard to get the results they want.
(I guess this post will be removed promptly.)

ChatNoir

Let's not forget that they want to go back to the site and dig to see if they can find relics that belonged to the Imperial family. That in incredulous to me. Relics won't tell us anything. Oh, I almost forgot. They don't have the money to go back and dig for the relics. Isn't that wild?
This all sounds like to me the same botched up job the Russians did on the mass grave. This time, the finally sent samples to the U.S. because the Russian labs were unable to obtain the chemicals they needed to do proper testing.
My source for these statements: RIA Novosti - Russia - Excavations for Romanov remains may resume in summer

 

[AGRBear]

Yes as a matter of fact I can post a link from the Sydney Morning Herald. Even thought the results didn't come out I am postive that those are the bones of Anastasia and Alexei. Even before July 2007, I knew Anastasia was the missing girl from the grave all along.

Apparently AnastasiaEvidence is not aware that the Russians have never believed Anastasia was missing from the mass grave. They have believed that Maria was the missing GD. And, they continue to believe this, if one can believe the various new articles which have been issued since the findings of the two pits in July of 2007.

It was Dr. Maples, our American forenic scientists who worked with the IF bones, who clamed GD Maria was in the mass grave and believe GD Anastasia is the one missing.

AGRBear

 

[ChatNoir]

When I visited St. Petersburg last summer, the tour guide took us to the fortress of Sts. Peter and Paul, and of course, we visited the church and saw the last resting place of the Imperial Family. The guide gave us a short resume of the story behind the IF's entombment, and then proceeded to say that Alexei and Anastasia had never been found. I asked her if she did not mean Maria. "No", she said. "But as for the tombs, we just decided to leave it alone."
Interesting, ain't it.

ChatNoir

 

[lexi4]

Interesting, ain't it.

ChatNoir[/QUOTE]

So what did she mean by that?

 

[ChatNoir]

Interesting, ain't it.

ChatNoir

So what did she mean by that? [/quote]

Obviously, she meant that even the Russians do believe that it was Anastasia who was not in the grave.

ChatNoir

 

[lexi4]

So what did she mean by that?

Obviously, she meant that even the Russians do believe that it was Anastasia who was not in the grave.

ChatNoir[/QUOTE]

Oh! Duh! That's interesting.

 

[AGRBear]

Perhaps my broad generalization that the Russians didn't believe the missing remains was that of Anastasia was far to broad. Perhaps I should have said that the officials in charge of the excavations have reported that the missing body is that of GD Marie.

And, yes, Chat, I think it's interesting that a tour guide would say that, AND, be so open with her views.

AGRBear

 

[Russophile]

Those are indeed the remains of Anastasia and her brother Alexei. I am postive those are the two missing members of the imperial family.The imperial family didn't survive on that night.There's no need to suggest that.

I know you think that. But why is there such a mystery surrounding this event? I am still up in the air the Anna Anderson was Anastasia, that may not be resolved. Alexi was a hemophiliac, there is little chance he survived, but WHERE ARE THE BODIES? What if they were helped to safety, but died afterwards? Why don't we hear about this? Instead they always insist, without concrete proof, that they axed the entire family.
I would love to have this mystery cleared up, but, it continues. Fascinating, obsessive stuff!

 

[BorisRom]

Today many Russian radio stations and telechannels have transferred the message of the head of group on investigation (V.Solovev):
"Results of examinations of new Ekaterinburg remains confirm their accessory to Nikolay's II children", - public procecutor-criminalist Vladimir Sovovev said at a meeting with the governor of Sverdlovsk area Edward Rossel.
"Examinations show with a high share of probability, that in a burial place there were remains of Alexey and Maria", - it have informed the correspondent of ITAR-TASS in department of the information of the governor. According to Solovev, official results of examinations will be sounded only in a month. "By then examinations will be finally make both genetic, and historical ", - Vladimir Solovev has emphasized.
http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=174438&cid=1 (in Russian)

 

[AGRBear]

Just a few days ago the Russians announced that they'd need to send the US labs more fragments because our labs was unable to draw DNA from the bones they had. And repeated the fact that the fragments were in terrible condition.

I'll see if I can find that article, again.

PS Here it is.

"Scientist unable to extract DNA from remains: in Russian"
YouTube - Scientist unable to extract DNA from remains: in Russian

Even if you cannot understand Russian, watch the video to see photos of a bullet, tooth and fragment of bones.

AGRBear

 

[BorisRom]

Even if you cannot understand Russian, watch the video to see photos of a bullet, tooth and fragment of bones.
AGRBear

(in my translation):
<<Correspondents of NTV (Anton Volsky and Dmitry Volkov) inform from
Washington:
The identification laboratory of Armed forces of the USA (Washington)
has informed, that their scientists could not allocate DNA from
fragments of bones of new "Ekaterinburg remains" (which have been
found the last summer) - as these fragments are too small also their
condition are too bad.
Russian scientists have defined, that only the third (30%) from 46
fragments of bones of new remains was suitable for the analysis. Two
(or three) fragments of these suitable bones have been sent in the USA
and its have appeared unsuitable for the analysis.
Some new fragments of these bones will be sent in the USA (from
Ekaterinburg) within the next few days. Russian scientists (in
Ekaterinburg) will be ready to declare their own results in the near
future.
The analysis of DNA will be made also in London (after carrying out of
analyses in the USA and in Russia)>>.
Correspondents of NTV have mentioned also «a verdict Massachuset's
laboratory», but they have not told an essence of this verdict.

 

[lexi4]

Looks like they struck out.

 

[norwegianne]

DNA tests carried out by a U.S. laboratory prove that bone fragments exhumed last year belong to two children of Czar Nicholas II, putting to rest questions about what happened to Russia's last royal family, a regional governor said Wednesday.

The Associated Press: DNA confirms IDs of czar's children

Also: Bloomberg.com: Europe

 

[morhange]

Wonderful news! Here's an article from Yahoo: DNA confirms IDs of czar's children - Yahoo! News

I see most news outlets reporting it was Maria's body found, and not Anastasia's. But still, this should put and end to speculations about survivors. There will always be skeptics, but I'm glad that science has given the definitive answer. Now the only question is when Alexei and Maria will be interred at S. Peter & Paul's to join their parents and sisters.

 

[colynsmomma]

new results

DNA confirms IDs of czar's children

Published: 4/30/08, 10:46 AM EDT
By MIKE ECKEL

MOSCOW (AP) - DNA tests carried out by a U.S. laboratory prove that bone fragments exhumed last year belong to two children of Czar Nicholas II, putting to rest questions about what happened to Russia's last royal family, a regional governor said Wednesday.
Bone fragments dug up near the Ural Mountains city of Yekaterinburg are indeed those of Crown Prince Alexei and his sister, Maria, whose remains had been missing since the family was murdered in 1918 as Russia descended into civil war, said Eduard Rossel, governor of the Sverdlovsk region.
"We have now found the entire family," he told reporters in Yekaterinburg, 900 miles east of Moscow.
The confirmation could bring the tortured history of the Russian imperial family closer to closure and end royal supporters' persistent hopes that members of the czar's immediate family survived the massacre.
Nicholas II abdicated in 1917 as revolutionary fervor swept Russia, and he and his family were detained. The czar; his wife, Alexandra, and their son and four daughters were fatally shot on July 17, 1918, in a basement room of the merchant's house where they were being held in Yekaterinburg
The remains of Nicholas, Alexandra and three of their daughters were unearthed in Yekaterinburg in 1991 as the Soviet Union was collapsing. After genetic tests convinced forensics experts of their authenticity, they were buried in 1998 in a cathedral in the imperial capital of St. Petersburg.
The Russian Orthodox Church canonized Nicholas and his family in 2000, even as it expressed doubts that the remains were indeed those of the czar's family.
The remains of Alexei and Maria, however, had never been located, leading to decades of speculation that perhaps one or both had survived.
Last summer, researchers dug up the bone shards near Yekaterinburg and enlisted Russian and U.S. laboratories to conduct DNA tests.
"The main genetic laboratory in the United States has concluded its work with a full confirmation of our own laboratories' work," Rossel told reporters. "This has confirmed that indeed it is the children.
It was unclear which laboratory Rossel was referring to but a genetic research team working at the University of Massachusetts Medical School has been involved in the process.
The press service for Russian Orthodox Church said no one could comment on the discovery.

 

[BorisRom]

All the Russian radio stations and telechannels transfer the news from Ekaterinburg. The correspondent of TV NTV (from the USA) has informed, that any of three foreign laboratories (two in the USA and one in Austria) did not inform results of the researches and did not send them to Russia. The military laboratory (Washington) has not finished the researches; the Austrian laboratory even yet did not begin.
So, governor Edward Rossel gives out desirable for valid?
All Russian radio stations and telechannels tell also about a fire in a memorial complex in Ganina Hole. The memorial complex has strongly suffered from a fire. Everyone consider it as a bad mystical sign (concurrence) to the application of governor Rossel.

 

[lucien]

Interfax-Religion

Report from Interfax.

CNN today.
Discovery solves mystery of last Czar's family - CNN.com

 

[ChatNoir]

Hmmm, maybe somebody could give us the NAME of that U.S laboratory that released the news. And the name of the scientists involved.
Thank you.

ChatNoir

 

[RhapsodyBrat]

I just read the news in my paper this morning. This means all family members are now accounted for, right?