Royal Family of Portugal 3: December 2007-

[Keith]

Regina,
What you say makes sense. There must be a common set of criteria which direct how decisions are made. In this case, I believe you are correct in saying that the Law must be the starting point. I assume by Law you are referring to a set of codified criteria for succession. The Law represents what everyone, at least at some point in time, has agreed upon, and if has been in place for some time, it has passed the test of time (i.e., that it has worked even when specific circumstances change), and therefore provides an objective means for achieving a particular outcome. So a legal or executive study sounds like a good idea. And if all monarchists would agree to this and agree to abide by the outcome, then, yes, this would greatly help the cause; at least unity may be achieved. Of course whatever the outcome, someone will lose, or felt they have lost. So, there must be an understanding that both sides will have to be magnaminous.

But in the mean time, I think it would be good for Portuguese monarchists to try to do everything possible to educate the populace in the advantages of having a monarchy at least be part of the government and involved in the life of Portugal. I know it would be a "long up-hill battle" but in the long run may prove worthwhile.

[Menarue]

A question Regina, why do you include Poidimani? Surely you can´t think he has any claim, or do you? Van Uden, and the others all have some claim to the throne, or at least the right to think they may have some claim, but Poidimani, the self proclaimed heir to the perhaps illegitimate daughter of the last king, who as far as I know (I may be wrong on this) was never really proved to be this. Poidimani wasn´t even related to her in any way he was supposed to support her in exchange for some adoption papers but she complained that he didn´t even keep his side of the bargain.
I am not trying to be argumentive, just curious.

[Elsa M.]

D. Miguel de Bragança (the Duke of Viseu) is one of the most discrete members of the royal family. Apart from being a knight of the Order of Malta, he rarely takes part in any royal activities. Instead, he chose to live a quiet life, in the countryside, where he's able to dedicate time to his passions: painting, reading and the studyof paranormal phenomena.

He rarely appears on the press, but in 1998 he accepted to recieve Caras magazine in his home (near Viseu).

Here's that so rare interview:

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/6687/miguel1qr3.jpg

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/1097/miguel2do5.jpg

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/7540/miguel3pl7.jpg

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/3181/miguel4eo5.jpg

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/8571/miguel5ky6.jpg

Credit to Caras.

[Regina]

Thanks to Menarue , I found out a very interesting thing. Maybe some of you already knew it, but well I didn't.

Several Presidents of USA, including George Bush (father & son) are descendents of D. Afonso Henriques, the first King of Portugal.

Click here
Those Presidents who have the red circle are descendents of William I of England.

One King William's descendents, King Edward I, married Leonor of Castilla who was a descendent of D. Urraca of Portugal (daughter of King D. Afonso Henriques).

[Elsa M.]

Originally Posted by Regina

Several Presidents of USA, including George Bush (father & son) are descendents of D. Afonso Henriques, the first King of Portugal.

One King William's descendents, King Edward I, married Leonor of Castilla who was a descendent of D. Urraca of Portugal (daughter of King D. Afonso Henriques).

That's interesting, Regina
But well, I'd say, one way or another, we all could find a remote royal ancester, couldn't we?... I mean, according to genealogists, more than 300.000 Portuguese men and women have royal/noble ancestors, so I myself and you, Regina, can well descendend from D. Afonso Henriques too... Queen Elsa of the Celtiberics and Queen Regina of the Moors

[Menarue]

Not really Elsa. There are quite a number of people that are descended from D. Afonso Henriques but you have to remember that just a few generations ago people did not marry out of their class, of course there is always "the other side of the blanket" but that is difficult find out and even more difficult to prove. The US Presidents are all very well documented and can trace back from son to father/ mother etc. right back to King William the Conqueror (with the descendants of Edward II having D. Afonso Henriques as a common ancestor, the most surprising of these for me were Ronald Reagan, Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton (through his real father and not his adopted father).
Fascinating.

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Elsa M.

That's interesting, Regina
But well, I'd say, one way or another, we all could find a remote royal ancester, couldn't we?... I mean, according to genealogists, more than 300.000 Portuguese men and women have royal/noble ancestors, so I myself and you, Regina, can well descendend from D. Afonso Henriques too...

Well I don't descended from D. Afonso Henriques I am sure of it. What surprises me is how many north american presidents have our first king as their ancester...

Yes, most of the portuguese people have some royal/noble ancester... Here is a very interesting article about it. The title means "We are all descendents of Nobles, Vagabonds and Priests".

The article says that more and more people in Portugal are paying to specialized companies to know who are their ancestors. There is a recent need to know from who each of us came from... Iza Luso Barbosa, the President of the Portuguese association of geneology says that we (the Portuguese), all have nobles, beggars, and priests in the family.

Queen Elsa of the Celtiberics and Queen Regina of the Moors

Jewish Queen of the Moors Land!

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Menarue

Not really Elsa. There are quite a number of people that are descended from D. Afonso Henriques but you have to remember that just a few generations ago people did not marry out of their class, of course there is always "the other side of the blanket" but that is difficult find out and even more difficult to prove. The US Presidents are all very well documented and can trace back from son to father/ mother etc. right back to King William the Conqueror (with the descendants of Edward II having D. Afonso Henriques as a common ancestor, the most surprising of these for me were Ronald Reagan, Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton (through his real father and not his adopted father).
Fascinating.

Exactly! The Presidents are indeed sure of their Royal ancestors. I find it fascinating too.
I know the mormons are always very concerned with genealogy. In America, they have very good sites and tools to help you to find more about your family history, ancestry, etc.

[Menarue]

I read recently about a priest in the time of D.João II who had over 300(in fact I think it was more like 350) children and was condemned to death, but D.João said he was helping populate the north of Portugal so pardoned him....... so there must be a lot of people in Portugal who are descended from him.

[Regina]

I've never heard about any portuguese priest who has 350 (!) children I'm surprised with the number. Do you know something else about this priest like the name or his city? It's an interesting story.

I think it must be only a legend, because even the King couldn't go against the roman church's decision to condemn him to death... Anyway, it's still a funny situation.

[Elsa M.]

Originally Posted by Menarue

I read recently about a priest in the time of D.João II who had over 300(in fact I think it was more like 350) children and was condemned to death, but D.João said he was helping populate the north of Portugal so pardoned him....... so there must be a lot of people in Portugal who are descended from him.

Yes, I read something about that too... P.e Francisco Costa was his name. He was the priest of Trancoso and had 275 children from 54 different women!!

[Menarue]

I read about this priest in "D.João II" by Luis Adão da Fonseca. I will try to find exactly what was said about him tomorrow. I probably got the number of children wrong - but it was only by about 100, LOL.
He was definitely a busy parish priest.

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Elsa M.

Yes, I read something about that too... P.e Francisco Costa was his name. He was the priest of Trancoso and had 275 children from 54 different women!!

I read about him right now on Wikipedia. The Wiki article says "Beira Alta", not North of Portugal... but who knows, maybe both places he helped to populate both places

I wasn't doubting any of you, but the story is really surprising! 275 children from 54 women represents more than 5 children per woman...

Originally Posted by Menarue

He was definitely a busy parish priest.

Menarue...

Anyway ... I didn't reply to your post #42 Menarue, sorry. I did it here

[Menarue]

I have just found the reference. It is not in the book I mentioned (good book it is too) it is from the Arquivo Nacional da Torre do Tombo.
Padre Francisco da Costa, prior de Trancoso, who at the time was sixty-two years old was to be hanged, drawn and quartered. His crime was having given 29 goddaughters, 97 daughters and 37 sons. There is a list of the other women he had had children with including close family members (too close). On the whole he had a total of 299 children of which 214 were girls and 85 were boys and the mothers were 53 women.
It goes on to say that D.João II pardoned him and set him free on 17th March 1487 saying that he would help populate the region of Beira Alta that was so poorly inhabited at that time.
(Autos arquivados na Torre do Tombo, Armário 5).

Unbelievable.

[Regina]

I'm still astonished... He should be on the Guiness book of records!
I wonder if there are not genetic problems in Trancoso.

Santos Costa wrote a book about this story (the article calls it a "legend" because there are no documents proving that he was the father of such number of children). Article

[Menarue]

It does sound as though it is a legend . The children sound like a few too many but I remember something about the 100 sons (not counting the girls) of a royal in an Eastern country. A bit like Chinese whispers, he probably had a large number of children and then it was exaggerated - but like most legends it was probably based on something or in this case someone....
The largest family I know personally has 6 boys and 19 girls and all the same parents that could be the material for a legend in the future. lol.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Regina

Thanks to Menarue , I found out a very interesting thing. Maybe some of you already knew it, but well I didn't.

Several Presidents of USA, including George Bush (father & son) are descendents of D. Afonso Henriques, the first King of Portugal.

Click here
Those Presidents who have the red circle are descendents of William I of England.

One King William's descendents, King Edward I, married Leonor of Castilla who was a descendent of D. Urraca of Portugal (daughter of King D. Afonso Henriques).

This is very interesting. What was the source of this information?

Thanks,
Keith

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Elsa M.

Yes, I read something about that too... P.e Francisco Costa was his name. He was the priest of Trancoso and had 275 children from 54 different women!!

Wow!!!!! What a guy!!!!

[Menarue]

The ancestry of the Presidents of the US can be seen on www.geneall.net go to any President´s name (I started at President Bush) and then click on US Presidents and the whole list appears, every one that has a red dot next to it shows that this President is a descendant of William the Conqueror and most of them from the first King of Portugal through the wife of Edward I of England. I find this fascinating.
You may have to sign up to get the full information but it is very cheap.

[Carminha Stalker]

What an interesting story this of this priest and his many children! I can believe it(even though not 300 or 2oo). My own ancestors came from Galizia, when Portugal was still tied up with Spain. They later settled in the region of Minho, north of Portugal. The Galizians speak very similar to Portuguese.
As to Saramago, I think, he is a strange person with his theories of Portugal being incorporated by Spain. Also, I don´t think he deserved the Nobel Prize.