Royal Family of Portugal 3: December 2007-

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Elsa M.

Tomorrow evening, the most important talk show of the public channel, "Prós e Contras", is airing an unusual debate about "Republic vs. Monarchy".

It's gathering the president of the Royal Cause and other prominant monarchist:
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Yes Elsa, I'll watch Prós and Contras no matter what hehe!!
The presentor, Fátima Campos Ferreira, is great (she allows everyone talk and express their ideas, she is never rude to anyone and she is always very well prepared).

I don't know if you watch these debates every week, Elsa, but the participants get so nervous after the first 15 minutes! I guess tomorrow it will be a hot debate between the two sides, I can't wait for it

[Marengo]

It would be interesting to see what advantages the monarchistic sociuety see in a restoration of the Portuguese moanrchy IMO (the contra's are rather obvious). How large is the moarchic association btw? I saw this:





In Lisbon at a square (forgot the name), is this the headquaters?

[Elsa M.]

Originally Posted by Marengo

In Lisbon at a square (forgot the name), is this the headquaters?

That is the royal association of Lisbon (at Praça Luís de Camões)... each district has one, I believe.

All the royal associations are congregated in a national entity called "Causa Real" (Royal Cause), which has about 10.000 members... not much.

[Elsa M.]

Originally Posted by Regina

I guess tomorrow it will be a hot debate between the two sides, I can't wait for it

It was very interesting to hear what both sides had to say... and for the first time in 100 years, we could discuss things as grown ups.

For those who understand Portuguese, here are the video links (see 2008.03.10... it's divided in 3 parts):

PRÓS E CONTRAS - Vídeos Multimédia RTP

[Miguel M. Costa]

About the debate, you can get 'ontopic' at www.monarquicos.com :: Exibir tópico - Pros e Contras

Google translation of this pages at Translated version of http://monarquicos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=312&start=20 (quite acceptable)

---

Originally Posted by Marengo

How large is the moarchic association btw?

I can't provide you real numbers on that. But i can tell you that currently the most visible and active of all the royal associations on the internet and afaik on the field is the Real Associação da Madeira (http://www.realmadeira.com) , The Real Associação de Lisboa, commonly known as RAL : (Real Associação de Lisboa) (really beautiful building - the one from the picture) isn't providing any visible actions... currently. Last month by the occasion of the Centennarium of the Regicide, some actions did took place and some more will occur over this year under the "Dom Carlos 100 Anos" commision (D. Carlos 100 anos) , part of the "D. Manuel II Foundation" (FUNDAÇÃO D.MANUEL II).
The attendance on such celebrations isn't that huge as it may seem or as some may expected. About 100-500 people were reffered to be present on such cerimonies, wich - imho - provides some info on the real number of associates.

---

My first post here. Found the royal foruns while browsing for some Portuguese related forums. I'll start posting here some updates on Portuguese Monarchy issues for those who might be interested.
Hope to find some new info here also.

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Miguel M. Costa

My first post here. Found the royal foruns while browsing for some Portuguese related forums. I'll start posting here some updates on Portuguese Monarchy issues for those who might be interested.
Hope to find some new info here also.

Bem-vindo (Welcome) to TRF, Miguel!!

[Marengo]

Welcome to TRF, Miguel, I hope you will enjoy your time here though i have to say that the Portuguese royals just got their own forum so this forum is still developing (with great help of Elsa and Regina). Updates on the Portuguese royals are very appreciated esp. as little of those make it to English-language sites.

Ah, so the picture I made was of the Lisbon association! The building is beautiful indeed, though I have to say most of the center of Lisbon is very beautiful.

A pity that only a small number of people turn up/ are a member, from what I noticed during my short stay in Portugal it seemed that the Portuguese are more royalist than most monarchies. No Dutch child would be able to name any Dutch monarch apart from Beatrix and Juliana for example.

[Miguel M. Costa]

Thank you both for your reception.
You'll also be warmly welcomed @ monarquicos.com - an 100% independent/free small portuguese monarchic site/forum where I'm currently one of the admins (portuguese only).

Noticed the PT flag on the smilies list
... can you change/add the monarchic one? :)


---

First I have to say that the general-popular feeling about Royalty in Portugal isn't quite a good one, people here tend to look at royalists as a sort of underground elite/jet7 (subjugated by the republican government and presidential representatives). Partialy that is true, as you may learn from many sites when people ask: Recently, what good have the royalists done to Portugal/Monarchy?
The answer stills unresolved. Even by those closely related to the royalists.

Though great contrast does exists between the terms Royalty and Monarchy in Portugal. Part of the population still reffers to Monarchy with great hope on this form of non-political representation of the state - and do not relate it directly with the Royality too often... quite strange. On some discussions, when there's the smaller connotation of Monarchy with Royalty/Nobility it tends to get... even stranger = bad.
There's also a great part of dictatorial-born elderly ones for whom the "ghost" of monarchy is the mother of all evils, greatly affected by the missing of real/royal national values and from what was teached in schools under the 40+ years of dictatorial regime. Unfortunately portuguese schools today still instructs some wrong info on what was and is the monarchic regime and the royality itself. Too many misconceptions and an huge amount of 'small innocent' mistakes written by the Republican regime on history books are still beeing teached and passed over generations of well-formed students these days.
Results are those of that by the ocasion of the Centennarium of the Regicide (the killing of the head of state) recently a town called Castro Verde - by the will of its elected Mayor, honoured the King D. Carlos assassins as patriotic heroes (at least hometown heroes). That is to say Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité, using mayor's words.

I can't provide much info about Royalty - the actual one. I'm not realy used to read pink mags nor tabloids where the Royalists can usually be found here in Portugal - that is where we can get lots of unuseful quotes from. Though I do respect the ones who read and do have genuine and personal interests about that.
I will try to bring some updates on Portuguese Monarchy related issues.

Originally Posted by Marengo

It would be interesting to see what advantages the monarchistic sociuety see in a restoration of the Portuguese moanrchy IMO (the contra's are rather obvious).

Currently we have:

- Semi-presidential state that often confuses the public oppinion about "who's the boss?" - leads to instability.
- Bad income. No expectations over outcome. - generates insecure people and fragile social order.
- Lack of interest/investment over social care, education, values, identity and national pride may lead over time to the revolution/change of at least the organisation/representation of the state.

- And really great wheater, vacation resorts, beaches, water and sun! Great food and liquors

Talk to you later about all that... :)
Cheers.

P.S. pardon my poor english... is that i've been enough time in France to have ruined it completely.

[Regina]

[quote=Miguel M. Costa;741144]

Noticed the PT flag on the smilies list
... can you change/add the monarchic one? :)

At least we have this one

First I have to say that the general-popular feeling about Royalty in Portugal isn't quite a good one, people here tend to look at royalists as a sort of underground elite/jet7 (subjugated by the republican government and presidential representatives). Partialy that is true, as you may learn from many sites when people ask: Recently, what good have the royalists done to Portugal/Monarchy?
The answer stills unresolved. Even by those closely related to the royalists.

Though great contrast does exists between the terms Royalty and Monarchy in Portugal. Part of the population still reffers to Monarchy with great hope on this form of non-political representation of the state - and do not relate it directly with the Royality too often... quite strange. On some discussions, when there's the smaller connotation of Monarchy with Royalty/Nobility it tends to get... even stranger = bad.
There's also a great part of dictatorial-born elderly ones for whom the "ghost" of monarchy is the mother of all evils, greatly affected by the missing of real/royal national values and from what was teached in schools under the 40+ years of dictatorial regime. Unfortunately portuguese schools today still instructs some wrong info on what was and is the monarchic regime and the royality itself. Too many misconceptions and an huge amount of 'small innocent' mistakes written by the Republican regime on history books are still beeing teached and passed over generations of well-formed students these days.
Results are those of that by the ocasion of the Centennarium of the Regicide (the killing of the head of state) recently a town called Castro Verde - by the will of its elected Mayor, honoured the King D. Carlos assassins as patriotic heroes (at least hometown heroes). That is to say Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité, using mayor's words.

I can't provide much info about Royalty - the actual one. I'm not realy used to read pink mags nor tabloids where the Royalists can usually be found here in Portugal - that is where we can get lots of unuseful quotes from. Though I do respect the ones who read and do have genuine and personal interests about that.
I will try to bring some updates on Portuguese Monarchy related issues.

Well, in my opinion, the problem with the Monarchy in Portugal is that the few royalists are not united. They are in minority (maybe 5 to 10% of the population) and they don't even agree about who is the right Pretender to the Throne. I think we could all start to seat and talk about this, because this is the real problem. Who is our 'King'?
Even the President of Partido Monárquico (Monarchist Party), Nuno da Câmara Pereira, is against D. Duarte!... With this strong division between royalists, we won't achieve anything, imo.

The Portuguese people love royalty from abroad, especially the Spanish Royal Family. Mathilde of Belgium is very known here too. And we love to watch royal weddings. Apart from this, I think most people in Portugal don't spend a minute thinking about Monarchy: Yes or No?

[Menarue]

I agree absolutely with what D.Duarte said. If you don´t I suggest you read the most boring book, in my opinion, ever written, Memorial do Convento by José Saramago. It might have been slightly more readable if he had put even one comma or any punctuation mark at all.
D. Duarte knows what he is talking about.
There have been many really deserving Nobel Prize winning writers, how could anyone compare Saramago to Winston Churchill or Pearl Buck just to name two.
Menarue

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Regina

Isabel Nogueira, attending a Fashion Show.

(scanned by me, Caras magazine)

If someone is interested on Isabel Nogueira's life, please read her blog - IN PARTIES...

In her blog, she writes about the many social events she attends all over the country.

On her profile she says her interests are Parties, Fashion, Travelling, Sports, Reading.

I can understand why D. Henrique enjoys her company: she is a funny, outgoing and elegant person(IMO).
But I guess why D. Duarte and Dª Isabel dislike the close relationship she has (had) with Henrique. Apart from being divorced, she seems to be a superficial person, who likes parties, but specifically ones in which she can find famous people.

[JSP]

Isabel has been described as a social alpinist - social climber.
I understand she works (and appears quite often) in a society magazine.
I am not sure but I think it is at "Eles e Elas" magazine who is run by Maria da Luz ... de Bragança (Lafões)

[Marengo]

Who is Maria da Luz de Braganca? I remember a D. Isabel de Braganca in Point de Vue or Caras at the Cadaval wedding too, and they also refer to the duke of Lafoes, however I can not find these names in the online Gotha.

[Regina]

Maria da Luz de Bragança is the Director of "Eles & Elas" high society magazine. Some years ago it was more high society than it is now, since now the magazine interviews common people like tv presentors (Fatima Lopes just to give an example) and football players.

Maria da Luz de Castro Costa Pereira is married with Duarte de Bragança, the son of D. Afonso de Bragança the 5th Duke of Lafões.

JSP, in her blog Isabel says she worked for two society magazines (she doesn't tell which), but not anymore. I guess the two magazines were "Eles & Elas" and "OQ".

[JSP]

Originally Posted by Marengo

Who is Maria da Luz de Braganca? I remember a D. Isabel de Braganca in Point de Vue or Caras at the Cadaval wedding too, and they also refer to the duke of Lafoes, however I can not find these names in the online Gotha.

A link to the Lafões family.

GeneAll.net - Duques de Lafões

They are issued from an illegitimate son of King D.Pedro II and wear the name Bragança.

Isabel de Bragança, actually is Isabel Soares, but as you must know, here in Portugal women usually adopt their husband's names .
Isabel is a sister-in-law of Maria da Luz de Bragança, both being married to two Lafões brothers.
Isabel's husband, D.Pedro is the youngest son of the 5th Duke.

I might be wrong but I think she is "very close" to Pr.Michel d'Orléans.
She often appears with him at every Parisian party.
If you have bought "Caras" you will note that she is photographed with Pr.Michel, not with her husband who appears with other guests.

Maybe coincidence ?

D.Pedro was the family dandy and playboy, opposite to his low-profile brothers.
In 1975 he was victim of a bomb blast at his home.
Thankfully he completely recovered.

[Elsa M.]

Originally Posted by Regina

Maria da Luz de Bragança is the Director of "Eles & Elas" high society magazine.

JSP, in her blog Isabel says she worked for two society magazines (she doesn't tell which), but not anymore. I guess the two magazines were "Eles & Elas" and "OQ".

Yesterday, there was a birthday party organized by this magazine and we can see both Maria da Luz de Bragança (pics nr 3 and 20) and Isabel Nogueira (pic nr 9) on this slideshow:

Sapo - Portal Fama

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Elsa M.

Yesterday, there was a birthday party organized by this magazine and we can see both Maria da Luz de Bragança (pics nr 3 and 20) and Isabel Nogueira (pic nr 9) on this slideshow:

Sapo - Portal Fama

Here is a new picture of this event (Caras magazine)

Isabel Nogueira with Lili caneças, Maria da Luz Bragança and Célia Dinis

I love Lili's dress (finally she wears something pretty... )

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Miguel M. Costa

---
Though great contrast does exists between the terms Royalty and Monarchy in Portugal. Part of the population still reffers to Monarchy with great hope on this form of non-political representation of the state - and do not relate it directly with the Royality too often... quite strange. On some discussions, when there's the smaller connotation of Monarchy with Royalty/Nobility it tends to get... even stranger = bad.
There's also a great part of dictatorial-born elderly ones for whom the "ghost" of monarchy is the mother of all evils, greatly affected by the missing of real/royal national values and from what was teached in schools under the 40+ years of dictatorial regime. Unfortunately portuguese schools today still instructs some wrong info on what was and is the monarchic regime and the royality itself. Too many misconceptions and an huge amount of 'small innocent' mistakes written by the Republican regime on history books are still beeing teached and passed over generations of well-formed students these days.
Results are those of that by the ocasion of the Centennarium of the Regicide (the killing of the head of state) recently a town called Castro Verde - by the will of its elected Mayor, honoured the King D. Carlos assassins as patriotic heroes (at least hometown heroes). That is to say Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité, using mayor's words.

Miguel,
The issue of history and misconceptions about monarchy that you raise are also very prevelant in the US. If you would mention that there are advantages to having a monarchy involved in government, people, here, would stare at you as if you were speaking in some ancient Mayan dialect or that you just recently arrived from Saturn. Even though many Americans follow the news about British royalty, the whole notion of monarchy is nowhere near being on their radar screens. Of course, I suppose, there is no big surprise in that for Americans, since our last experience with a monarch was during our colonial period with George III.

Does the website you referenced or any other organizations provide educational material that would offer more objective, positive views of the monarchy in Portugal's history, or promote the advantages of monarchy or constitutional monarchy? I participate in another forum here in the US in which we have discussed the same issues. Our history has been written strictly from a republican point of view ( again no surprise here), and so any other form of government is viewed negatively. Also, aspects of our colonial history leading up to the Revolution are conveniently left out; such as that many of the colonists were not in favor of severing ties with England and that conditions were not as bad as the history books make them out to have been. And of course, in recent times, the socialist/progressive elites now attempt to skew our history to show how bad the republican form of government has been and portray socialist style governments as the best. Anyway, to combat these issues and the misconceptions of monarchy, we have discussed the possibility of creating educational materials. Unfortunately, there are so few of us and no one seems to have the time to really make this happen. But, it seems that a way to start overcoming the misconceptions is to provide sound educational materials and disseminate those.

As I read Portuguese history, I see a small country buffeted by larger countries attempting to manipulate and/or rule Portugal and being led by monarchs who, on the whole, did a good job of maintaining Portugal's integrity and sovereignty (except possibly for the time of the Spanish Captivity).

Anyway, I have rambled on enough. I hope you find my thoughts helpful.
Keith

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Regina

Well, in my opinion, the problem with the Monarchy in Portugal is that the few royalists are not united. They are in minority (maybe 5 to 10% of the population) and they don't even agree about who is the right Pretender to the Throne. I think we could all start to seat and talk about this, because this is the real problem. Who is our 'King'?
Even the President of Partido Monárquico (Monarchist Party), Nuno da Câmara Pereira, is against D. Duarte!... With this strong division between royalists, we won't achieve anything, imo.

The Portuguese people love royalty from abroad, especially the Spanish Royal Family. Mathilde of Belgium is very known here too. And we love to watch royal weddings. Apart from this, I think most people in Portugal don't spend a minute thinking about Monarchy: Yes or No?

Even though I am an outsider I would like to share a few comments. Regina, I believe you are correct in calling for some sort of forum in which those interested in the monarchy could meet face-to-face and discussion the issues dispassionately. However, my guess is that there needs to be some agreement between those who have claim to throne as to who would be the recognized king and how the succession will work in the future before there can develop more popular support. I think the first question that needs to be answered is: What is our primary goal? To regain popular support for monarchy and establish a trend toward the re-establishment of the monarchy in some form? Or to come to some decision as to who will be the recognized king? Either way, serious compromises would have to be worked out. But answering that question would at least allow what issues have to be focused on and perhaps give clarity to the compromises that will need to be made.

Also, you all (Wow, now I speaking like the folks in our southern states) could come together to simply discuss how to inform others of your positions and why you hold them. Start an educational movement.

As I said, I am an outsider and feel a little uneasy sticking my nose in this issue, and I am not as emotionally tied into the issues as perhaps many of you are, but, at the same time, I feel strongly in the value of your beliefs and positions. So, I hope that the comments I offer are taken as support in your efforts, and are found to be helpful.

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Keith

However, my guess is that there needs to be some agreement between those who have claim to throne as to who would be the recognized king and how the succession will work in the future before there can develop more popular support. I think the first question that needs to be answered is: What is our primary goal? To regain popular support for monarchy and establish a trend toward the re-establishment of the monarchy in some form? Or to come to some decision as to who will be the recognized king? Either way, serious compromises would have to be worked out. But answering that question would at least allow what issues have to be focused on and perhaps give clarity to the compromises that will need to be made.

As I said, I am an outsider and feel a little uneasy sticking my nose in this issue, and I am not as emotionally tied into the issues as perhaps many of you are, but, at the same time, I feel strongly in the value of your beliefs and positions. So, I hope that the comments I offer are taken as support in your efforts, and are found to be helpful.

I am glad you're posting here, Keith. If we had only Portuguese members talking about this topic, it would be a bit boring IMO. It's nice to see your interest. Don't worry, sometime I give my opinion about other royal families as if they were mine

Originally Posted by Keith

However, my guess is that there needs to be some agreement between those who have claim to throne as to who would be the recognized king and how the succession will work in the future before there can develop more popular support. I think the first question that needs to be answered is: What is our primary goal? To regain popular support for monarchy and establish a trend toward the re-establishment of the monarchy in some form? Or to come to some decision as to who will be the recognized king? Either way, serious compromises would have to be worked out. But answering that question would at least allow what issues have to be focused on and perhaps give clarity to the compromises that will need to be made.

If monarchists want a king again, they must know it's not enough to say "A monarchy is a better regime". They have to work for that.
But don't forget that those who want a monarchy are a Minority. Many portuguese love to read about royals life and watch royal weddings. But about our own country, most prefer to remain to live in a republic.

As I said, there are not many who wants a King reigning here so the TV's don't care about debates/discussions about the subject. And when they do, the topic of the debate is always the same "Monarchy or republic?" and not something like "who should be our monarch?", simply because most people wouldn't watch it.

Most people know who D. Duarte is, but I have to say that IMO 9 in 10 never heard about Van Uden or Poidimani. So many accept or tolerate D. Duarte, because they don't know anyone else. If they were informed about the real situation, probably many would change their opinions.

With the monarchy supporters things are different. They are divided. Some don't support D. Duarte just because he is not considered as a smart person and they also dislike his personality. I am not particularly fond of him, but this is no reason to reject him as a Pretender. A King doesn't have to be a genius... Others don't support him because (in their opinions) the Law is not with him. Duarte simply doesn't fulfil the legal requisits to become a King.

So as you see royalists are not united, and IMO they won't be because some prefer to follow men's traditions than the written authority (the Law, in this case). I once went to the Real Associação of Lisbon with a friend of mine and while we were there, I asked a few questions to the person who was working there at the time. My impression was that D. Duarte was a religious dogma for him. I support van Uden but if I see that someone else has more rights to the throne than he does, I'll change my mind. I just don't understand why Duarte is the right one, just because his father decided so.

I think the best thing to do is first of all to formally determine who is the right heir. The monarchist associations should call specialists in Law and Monarchies, or go to some european Court that could study this case without passion for any of the sides. An exautive study would reveal who is the legal pretender and that way, it would be easier to defend the Monarchy system. And this Study has to be made one of these days, because Poidimani may be a bit lunatic in his demandings but he is taking legal procedures against D. Duarte and something has to come out of all this.