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08-11-2006, 10:36 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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You're welcome, Maidmarion and Sofia!
It is indeed a very interesting subject, mainly if we keep in mind that the blue and white are deeply conected to our history and identity, unlike the green and red, which have a very recent tradition, dating just from the XX century...
Besides, and according to the basic rules of heraldry, the green and the red are two enamel colours, so they should never be in contact with one another (the heraldry allows only the fusion of enamels and metals - i.e. all the other colours with the white/silver or yellow/gold). Because of that, many heraldric scholars consider the Portuguese republican flag (as well as others like, for example, the Lithuanian one), as "heraldric mistakes"... 
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08-14-2006, 07:13 PM
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Administrator
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
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Thanks for the explanation Elsa. What was the previous flag like? I think one of the earlier Portuguese flags was just like the ´inner´ part of the Portuguese coat of arms, so white, with these blue ´things´ and surrounded by the red stripes with yellow castles. I remember seeing it in an old historic cartoon book of my ex father-in-law. IMO that was the nicest flag.
Does anybody know why they chose red and green and why they did not equally divide the colours?
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08-14-2006, 10:13 PM
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Commoner
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hillside, United States
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the flag you discribed was one of the first flags, the first one only had the blue cross with the dotts on a white cloth. the reson why the present flag is colored red and green is because those were the colors of the republican party during the monarchy. but it was not the only desing that was made up. i have lost the link but there is a site that shows the flags that were presented as possible national flags not all had the green and red, a few had the blue and white like the last flag of the monarchy. now why they didnt equally divide the colors i dont know. i do know that the last flag of the monarchy there were 2 veriations to it, one the most common and i do belive the offical was the division in the center, but the other design the division was in the same area as the present flag so it might have come from there.
__________________
"Ninguem ama sua Patria por ser grande, mas sim por ser sua...."
Viva SM Dao Duarte III!!!
Viva Portugal!!!
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08-15-2006, 03:46 AM
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Courtier
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Houston, United States
Posts: 849
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This link, maybe? My knowledge of Portuguese comes from comparing it to Spanish and comparing Spanish to French, but this page has some variations.
__________________
Kelly D
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08-15-2006, 11:02 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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Hello again!
Quote:
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What was the previous flag like?
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As I said above, the first national flag was created in 1821, during the constitutional monarchy. This is, truly, the first national flag, whose colours go back to our first king’s coat of arms (vd. my first post, for the justification of the choice of the colours).
Soon after the Proclamation of the Republic (on October 5th 1910), the new government ordered a commission, to create a new flag. The choice was not pacific at all, great polemics were created, and several proposals (26 flag projects in all, I believe) were then discussed. Here are some of them:
http://www.fotw.net/flags/pt!1910.html
Basically, there were two great proposals: those who wanted to keep the traditional blue and white colours, and the hard line republicans, which prevailed.
The final decision came with the decree of June 19th 1911, where the new national flag was finally approved, to substitute the previous one. From that moment on, this new green-red flag would be the national flag, substituting the previous one (although the blue-white one continues being used by the monarchists and, therefore, it is usually called the “monarchic flag”).
In these websites, we can see the various coats of arms of the Portuguese kings, since D. Afonso Henriques, ended up by the two national flags: the one created during the constitutional monarchy and the present one, created during the Republic:
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandeira_de_Portugal#c._1095_a_1139.2F1143
http://www.tuvalkin.web.pt/terravista/Guincho/1421/bandeira/pt_hist.htm
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08-15-2006, 11:13 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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The new flag
The Commission in charge of creating the new flag gave a very fragile justification for the choice of colours. They based their arguments in a symbolic reading, rather then heraldric principals (which were very fragile, as I showed in post above). According to the official explanation, the red was chosen for being the militant colour par excellence (since it remembers the blood and it inspires feelings of victory), while the green would be the colour of hope.
The truth, however, is that they were colours without great historical tradition (some scholars say they were related to the colours of two major military orders – the Order of Christ, whose cross was red, and the Order of Avis – but I doubt the Republicans were considering that, when they chose the red and green…) and, as we can see, hardly could the Commission justify its inclusion in the Flag.
It seems more plausible that the two basic colours were related to the Carbonari (a secret, revolutionary society that flourished in Italy, France, Portugal and Spain early in the 19th century, in the fashion of the Freemasonry), since green and red are the colours of the mantle that covers the image of Saint John the Evangelist, the patron of the Carbonari (and that’s why they are also the colours of the Italian flag).
About the partition of the two basic colours, I believe this ratio was also related to the flag of this secret society, since the Carbonari’s flag was 2/5 red and 3/5 green, while the Portuguese flag is 2/5 green and 3/5 red...
(As Danny says however, the monarchic blue & white flag, in its version for naval use, had already a 1/2 partition, while the flag for terrestrial use was equally divided. I don't think they are related though, since they were different partitions, but I'm not an expert)
The link provided by Kelly9480 is preciselly about the right proportions and it exemplifies how the Portuguese shall not be represented.
Besides this choice of colours, the Commission also decided to keep, in the essential, the same representative emblems of the Nation that already appeared in the previous blue & white flag. For the lovers of heraldry, these are truly the important symbolic elements, since the historical continuity of the Nation is represented mostly in there, rather than in the colours.
Here’s a brief resume of those symbols, which were basically the ones transferred from the blue & white flag to the red & green one, except for the crown (that was eliminated in the second flag, for obvious reasons):
1. the yellow/gold armilla (esfera armilar), which was adopted as the personal emblem of D. Manuel I, and is present in the national emblems since then. It symbolizes the Portuguese Discoveries and the most shining period of our History;
2. the white/silver shield sprinkled by the blue shiels (quinas), each one with five silver beasants (in memory of the five sore of Jesus Christ that, according to the legend, appeared in a vision to D. Afonso Henriques, during the first battles for the Portuguese nationality);
3. a crimson wide band that surrounds the white shield, over which are placed the seven yellow/gold castles (which represent the Muslim kingdoms the Portuguese had to fight in the beginning of the nationality).
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08-15-2006, 07:06 PM
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Heir Apparent
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Join Date: Nov 2005
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That's very interesting, Elsa! So fascinating to know the story of how/why the new flag was chosen and what it symbolizes. Not talking about the possible hidden reasons behind it! 
That was a great explanation!
__________________
Queen Elizabeth: "I cannot lead you into battle, I do not give you laws or administer justice but I can do something else, I can give you my heart and my devotion to these old islands and to all the peoples of our brotherhood of nations." God, Save The Queen!
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08-16-2006, 11:43 AM
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You're welcome, Avalon!
Well, in these things, there are never absolute truths, but I hope it served at least to get a general idea of it...
Oh, and I forgot to say this, I believe the flag Marengo was describing was one of the personal flags/standards used by the various Portuguese kings (especially the last ones)... Was it any of these, Marengo?
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandeir..._a_1139.2F1143
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08-17-2006, 12:31 AM
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Heir Apparent
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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08-17-2006, 07:56 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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Thanks for the photos, Purple_Platinum! The archipelago of Açores is a very beautiful place, where the Nature is still untouched. The photos were taken in the island of S. Miguel, where the Furnas (a mud volcano) are placed: http://www.travel-images.com/raa3.html
They seem to have arrived these days in Açores, since D. Duarte was performing an act last Monday in the continental part of the country.
http://www.diarioleiria.pt/10907.htm
The village of Batalha paid last Monday, August 14th, a homage to D. João I,. The ceremony took place at the Chapel of the Founder, in the Monastery of Santa Maria da Vitória, where António Leite da Costa (from the Historical Society of the Independence of Portugal) evoked some passages of our History. D. Duarte, the Duke of Bragança, was one of the guests and placed a crown of flowers on the grave of D. João I.
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08-17-2006, 06:09 PM
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Commoner
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hillside, United States
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thanx for the lovely pics. i must say that they are one of the most if not the most down to earth royal family today. a family that seems to be very united, and you can see the love that exsists in that family. i might be a bit bias is i am portuguese and have a great love and admeration for our royal family but compared to other i must say i see alot of love there somethin which is not always seen in some other families.
__________________
"Ninguem ama sua Patria por ser grande, mas sim por ser sua...."
Viva SM Dao Duarte III!!!
Viva Portugal!!!
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08-24-2006, 08:50 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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http://da.campodosmedia.com/jornal/?...oticia&id=3266
The town of Beja will host, next September 22-24th, the 13th Congress of the Royal Cause. More than 200 monarchists, among congressmen and observers, are waited during the three days.
The Royal Cause is the federacy of the various royal associations existing in Portugal and abroad. It is presided by D. Duarte de Bragança and it intends to congregate all the sympathetical and political sensibilities of the royal institution.
This year's edition is dedicated to doctrinal reflection. While the meetings will be congregated at the Diocesan Seminary of Beja, several other events are also appointmented to take place in other parts of the town, where the blue and white monarchic flags are expected be spread.
The event will count on the presence of the Duke of Bragança who, according to José Gaspar, "is going to participate in diverse initiatives related to the congress".
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08-27-2006, 12:37 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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The Duke of Bragança is going to present the players of the Portuguese football team with the Order of Nossa Senhora da Conceição de Vila Viçosa, of which he is the Great-Master.
Although the ceremony always takes place on the holliday of December 8th (when the Patronness of the Country is celebrated), D. Duarte will advance it to next week, so it can be possible to have all the players assembled.
The Ordem de Nossa Senhora da Conceição is an honorific dinastic order created by D. João VI in 1818, whose members own the title of Cavaleiros (Knights). Its hashmark is hanged on a blue and white band and it is made up of a crowned medallion, in form of star, and a circle with the inscription "Padroeira do Reino" (Patroness of the Kingdom).
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08-27-2006, 08:49 PM
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Commoner
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hillside, United States
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that is very nice of the duke, theteam does deserve all the credit and apretiation they get. they did a very good job this year. but one question, do you know which degree they will recive, if im not mistaken there are several degrees in the order.
__________________
"Ninguem ama sua Patria por ser grande, mas sim por ser sua...."
Viva SM Dao Duarte III!!!
Viva Portugal!!!
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08-28-2006, 11:31 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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I understand they will get the degree of "Cavaleiros" (Knights). It's not a noble, nor a State title (to which D. Duarte could only access if he was king of Portugal); just an honorific distinction. This kind of dinastic orders (e.g. the Ordem de Nossa Senhora da Conceição de Vila Viçosa, the Ordem de Santa Isabel, etc.) have much of a religious nature, and that's why the Vatican recognizes the Head of the Portuguese Royal House as it's Great-Master, despite Portugal being a republic.
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09-01-2006, 04:30 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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http://jn.sapo.pt/2006/08/31/desport...o_europeu.html
Dom Duarte Pio, Duke of Bragança, granted the medal of the Ordem de Nossa Senhora da Conceição de Vila Viçosa to all the players and staff of the national football team, for the outstanding performance during the last World Championship. The private cerimony, which took place out of the press' eye, happened yesterday in the Amazónia Hotel of Jamor (Lisboa), at 9:00 PM, after dinner.
http://www.correiodamanha.pt/noticia...Canal=21&p=200
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09-05-2006, 03:05 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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http://www.gazetacaldas.com/Desenvol.asp?NID=15302
The Duke of Bragança is going to participate in the 17th Edition of the Castro Laboreiro Dog Exhibition that is going to take place in the village of Óbidos, next September 9th.
http://www.jornaldeleiria.pt/index.p...=3145&visual=1
D. Duarte de Bragança participated in the commemorative acts of the Battle of Aljubarrota (1385) that took place last week. Despite arriving late at the cerimony, the claimant to the Portuguese Throne was one of the few people that had a seat at the tribune, along with the official authorities...
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09-06-2006, 08:46 AM
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Gentry
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: personal, Canada
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Holidays in the Azores
Thanks everyone for all the recent information and photos posted about the the royal family "holidaying" in the Azores. I have relatives living there in Sao Miguel and it is so nice to hear that the Royal family chose such a terrific place within Portugal to spend their holiday. I have been away for a few weeks and have been unable to catch up on recent goings on. Thanks again everyone, your contributions are so intriguing.
MM 
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09-12-2006, 02:23 PM
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Courtier
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Lagos, Portugal
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There´s an interview of D. Duarte in Just Leader magazine this month. It is a realy nice interview, because D. Duarte talks about the situation in Portugal and how it could be differente if Portugal were a monarchy.
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