Restoration of Monarchy in Portugal - Page 2

Ultramare · #21 01-08-2012, 03:20 PM

@jonc93: Indeed, he´s not very known, but many brazilian are "cryptomonarchists": They like a thing which don´t know. The Brazil is a LARGE country, and by one hundred of years even speaking on monarcy was forbidden: It was a political crime. Many Peter II´s portraits were destroyed to do the monarchy looks like old. There´s a hope, but there are many things to do.

PS: Please forgive my bad english.

jonc93 · #22 01-08-2012, 07:01 PM

Cory, no there is not, probably because most people are silent sympathizes who do not say they are monarchists because in Portugal that's almost considered wrong amongst many people. I would say much less than a third are monarchists.

Cory · #23 01-20-2012, 03:06 PM

I suppose Don Duarte is quite popular anyway.

fancatt · #24 02-01-2012, 06:07 PM

Similar to what is happening in Romania but on a smaller scale, of course, there are those who express the desire to return to the monarchy. And to have D. Duarte Pio as the King of Portugal:

Portugal precisa de um Rei - Expresso.pt

Manifesto:

In this page there are some links:

http://causamonarquica.com/2012/02/0...a-em-portugal/

DavidS. · #25 02-08-2012, 07:57 PM

@Cory: no... unfortunately there isn't...

Anyways, I wanted to share with you an experience which could serve the Portuguese Monarchists.

I'm 22 years old - and I'm currently studying in the university. In my class, there are, perhaps, 50 people. From those 50 people - 5 guys (including me) are staunch Monarchists - and each one of us have different perspectives. Basically, one of us supports an absolute Monarchy; the other one refuses all protocol involving the Catholic Church; and the other three (me included) defend the restoration of a Constitutional Monarchy with the Royal Family attached to the necessary Roman Catholic traditions that are common to the Portuguese people.

I had the opportunity to talk with some guys from our class during lunchtime, and what I observed during our conversations was an absolute ignorance about what was the Monarchy and what it stands for or what are the duties and advantages of having a Monarchy.

I had one friend who got the point of saying: "Why do you want a King? To walk around with a wig and spend our money building palaces?" - and the worst of it all is that he wasn't joking. After I explained them what the Monarchy is and what it stands for - obviously personified in the head of the Royal Family - a crushing majority of my colleages said they wouldn't mind a Monarchy (but there needed to be a Parliament).

» The Portuguese Monarchist movement keeps growing - year after year - the only problem is that you have Monarchists are too ashamed to say they are Monarchists (and I honestly don't know why). If there are people who pride themselves of ideals such as Communism, why can't we take pride in a perfectly fine and democratic institution like the Monarchy?

» Other problem is that people are very ignorant about the roles of a King, of a Royal Family, of what is the Monarchy. And this is one is the worst. And don't get me wrong... the Republic is as unknown to the Portuguese as it is the Monarchy.

The Monarchy can and will only be RESTORED by the will of the people. We will not take an example out of the Republic, and murder our Chief-of-State and his son; and impose our ideals through the force of arms. We need to talk to people through intelligence, and trying to make them see that the Monarchy is part of the solution to Portugal and the Portuguese. It's a hard and long path still (at least for Portugal) - but I do think that we can get there.

I apologize for the long post... when I start talking about Monarchies - you can't get me to stop (lol).

tdarlene · #26 02-09-2012, 08:02 AM

I definitely agree with you DavidS. When I was in university, and I was in political science and international relations where you study different types of government and so on, it was amazing for me seeing how many of my colleagues studying such thing as democracy and especially european countries were so misinformed about what is a monarchy nowadays, especially in a democratic country, mostly of them still thing that monarchy means absolute monarchy of about 300 years, or monarchies of autocratic countries, and this is a general way of thinking of the people, especially because of the way monarchy is taught at school, in a very misconception way, only when you reach a higher level of education and have a lot of information is when you can think about it, and even that way is difficult because here in Portugal we don't have the serious media talking what it really is the difference of having a monarch or a president, we see royals in the media but mostly in pink press that only cares for the 'glamour' and scandals, and that's the misconception that people think what monarchy is and means.

Cory · #27 02-09-2012, 04:08 PM

We must admit a reality: the portugese royalists are much more than ever...

julliette · #28 02-09-2012, 05:58 PM

^^ It's true, Cory, They are more than ever. I'm actually quite impressed by how many monarchists I've met since I came to study in Lisbon for university but as said above they still seem a bit shy to "come out" and say out loud they support a monarchy. Anyway things are improving in that department...

It's said but true how many people have fool ideas about monarchies. I think is something people in Portugal don't even stop to think about (monarchy vs republic). We learn a version of the facts in history classes during school age. A version that sometimes even seems to support that idea of republic=democracy. Most people have that idea from school and then assume that for the rest of their lives and don't even question it. I believe that if you ask people in Portugal randomly on the streets if they would like to live in a monarchy they would answer no, but most of these people would only say that because they never stoped to think about that.
I believe that there are only a few republicans in this country. The majority of the people are a bit ignorant (no offense here) in these issues but I feel they are quite receptive about the monarchy when you explain them how modern and constitutional monarchies work nowadays and specially give examples of european monarchies, that's the point when they realize how full their ideas (republic=democracy) are.
That's why I think monarchists main role nowadays (and I think they would gain a lot of points with it) should be "clean" these fool ideas from people's minds. Explain what a monarchy is, what it means, how it works in modern and democratic countries, give examples, such as the scandinanvian, the netherlands. And in this point Causa Real, the main association of monarchists as a lot of work to do internally and start to think about a reorganization of its role, how it comunicates with people, not only with those already interested in the monarchy but specially those who have no conection at all with this ideal.
But even if Causa Real doesn't do that, which is a pitty, monarchists in Portugal should stop being shy. I think they are starting to stop it a bit, namely with many bloggers who are active supporters of the monarchy, talk many times about it in their blogs and with this promote a discussion even if it only stays in the blog's world.

Cory · #29 02-10-2012, 01:35 AM

This royalist Manifesto is translated to English too?

fearghas · #30 02-10-2012, 03:17 AM

One thing that will always work against a monarchy in a democratic country is that the position is decided by birth. In a democracy people are taught that they could be anyone, a president for instance, but if I'm born into the wrong family I can never be King. In a democracy the head of state should be chosen by the people.
That is why monarchy is on the outer at the moment. And I think monarchists who also believe in democracy will always struggle with this. Hence why you have the different ty[es of monarchists that you mentioned.

tdarlene · #31 02-10-2012, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearghas

In a democracy the head of state should be chosen by the people.

Actually in some democratic republics in Europe such as Germany and Italy the Head of State is not elected by the people but by the parliament, but as you said anyone (not really, you'll always need to make the right political choices and right connections) in a democratic republic could be president.

**Stefan** · #32 02-10-2012, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdarlene

Actually in some democratic republics in Europe such as Germany and Italy the Head of State is not elected by the people but by the parliament, but as you said anyone (not really, you'll always need to make the right political choices and right connections) in a democratic republic could be president.

In Germany the Presdient is not elected by the parliament but by a special Assembly of People which are the members of Parliament and the same number of people send by the federal States (they don't have to by members of the federal parliaments but can also be Sportstemn or other, for example Bavaria has also send Fürstin Gloria of Thurn und Taxis at last once).

NGalitzine · #33 02-10-2012, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearghas

One thing that will always work against a monarchy in a democratic country is that the position is decided by birth. In a democracy people are taught that they could be anyone, a president for instance, but if I'm born into the wrong family I can never be King. In a democracy the head of state should be chosen by the people.
That is why monarchy is on the outer at the moment. And I think monarchists who also believe in democracy will always struggle with this. Hence why you have the different ty[es of monarchists that you mentioned.

When you look at the list of the most democratic nations you will find an awful lot of monarchies. Power lies with the people through Parliament. The people elect their governments and therefore the Head of Government and the monarch remains as Head of State, a symbol of the nation above politics.

jonc93 · #34 02-10-2012, 08:18 PM

A Monarchy can be more democratic than a republic, especially with a neutral head of state, but most people do not see that they think of Monarchy as absolute rule and Tyranny. The only way to ever have a serious thought of the restoration in Portugal or any other country is to make the people less ignorant on the topic of monarchy.

fearghas · #35 02-10-2012, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NGalitzine

When you look at the list of the most democratic nations you will find an awful lot of monarchies. Power lies with the people through Parliament. The people elect their governments and therefore the Head of Government and the monarch remains as Head of State, a symbol of the nation above politics.

I agree that there is that contradiction where there are really democratic countries with monarchies (I think of the Scandanavian countries as a good example) but it is still a powerful arguement in favour of republicanism.

fearghas · #36 02-10-2012, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonc93

A Monarchy can be more democratic than a republic, especially with a neutral head of state, but most people do not see that they think of Monarchy as absolute rule and Tyranny. The only way to ever have a serious thought of the restoration in Portugal or any other country is to make the people less ignorant on the topic of monarchy.

This is what I neglected to mention, that there is this idea that a monarchy is about autocracy. I think that for Portugal this will be a hard sell

grevinnan · #37 02-11-2012, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonc93

A Monarchy can be more democratic than a republic, especially with a neutral head of state, but most people do not see that they think of Monarchy as absolute rule and Tyranny. The only way to ever have a serious thought of the restoration in Portugal or any other country is to make the people less ignorant on the topic of monarchy.

I doubt there is anyone in Europe that thinks of monarchy as an absolute rule and tyranny. I think you have either wrong century and/or continent. The main argument against monarchies is the succession. It may be democratic to chose to have a monarchy but that gets very touchy when the issue of succession is brought up. It is simply not democratic to have a system where the head of state is born to the position. So the blending of the traditions of monarchy and a democratic society is surviving because the tradition and culture is woven into the fabric of peoples lives and associations with their country's history. With each generation that association becomes weaker and eventually the idea of a monarchy will simply not make any sense. Whether it will happen at the next change in regent we will just have to wait and see. We may see another generation or two of royal regents but my guess is that would be the maximum.

DavidS. · #38 02-11-2012, 08:09 PM

@fearghas: If I may speak freely, a Republic isn't more or less democratic than a Monarchy. You need to study each case, and obtain a conclusion. If I grab Saudi Arabia and Venezuela - goodness me, I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

I believe that it's up to each nation and its population to decide what regime suits their needs, history, culture, traditions, etc better.

For 21 years I lived in Portugal - and I lived 1 year in Spain. And I tell you - both of the nations are equally democratic. And guess what - one's a Republic and the other one's a Monarchy.

And that argument is much like a trap, honestly. I'm not in a political party - so I would never EVER be able to become President, even if I wanted to. That's why the Republic is severely crippled - the President attaches himself to a party. The King on the other hand, is guarded - through the "incovenience" of being a member of the Royal Family - from political lobbies, interests, etc. And he clearly has a long-term vision regarding government policies, contrasting with that of a President, which has a limit of 4, and with some luck, 8 years. And the King wouldn't make an idiot out of himself, by pushing himself forward to an election, where he promises things everyone knows he doesn't have the powers to comply (I call all Portuguese here to remember the last Presidential campaigns which were utterly ridiculous).

A King, a Prime-Minister, a Parliament and a Constitutional Court. All powers and institutions - the State and Portuguese people represented in its perfection.

fearghas · #39 02-12-2012, 04:30 PM

Davids I am a monarchist and agree with everything you said, except for one thing. IN a democratic republic, if we followed the right course you or I could be Head of State, the possibility is there, no matter how unlikely. In a monarchy unless we were born into the right family we would never be able to. And that is the crux of the arguement against monarchies and one that cant be argued against in our fashion for meritocracy. Why should someone, who just happens to be born to a certain set of parents have an inalienable right to be Head of State and no one else.

grevinnan · #40 02-13-2012, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearghas

Davids I am a monarchist and agree with everything you said, except for one thing. IN a democratic republic, if we followed the right course you or I could be Head of State, the possibility is there, no matter how unlikely. In a monarchy unless we were born into the right family we would never be able to. And that is the crux of the arguement against monarchies and one that cant be argued against in our fashion for meritocracy. Why should someone, who just happens to be born to a certain set of parents have an inalienable right to be Head of State and no one else.

Because that is how monarchy works and if a country by democratic means have chosen to be a monarchy than that is how the position will be passed on.