Claims to the Portuguese Throne

[JSP]

Originally Posted by Next Star

There is alot of confusing in this non reigning house on who should get the headship and the defacto claims to the default throne.It seems none of the people mentioned in the many previous posts who are members of this house are qualiflied which I find kinda of shocking.In somehow or someway there as to be atleast one member of this house who can take the headship.

Of course there is one.
D.Duarte, the Duke of Bragança.
Not only he is the one officially recognized by the State, but also the one that is universally recognized by all foreign RFs.

Luckily we do not have the problem that the Two Sicilies or the brazilian Braganças had, with 2 candidates disputing the House Headship.

Do you know any RF or State that recognizes anyone but the Duke of Bragança ?

The Loulés ? Nobody (99.99%) knows about them in Portugal, and even lesser have heard of them outside.
The van Udens support D.Duarte.
Nuno da Câmara Pereira is supported by himself and his large family but he doesn't count a penny for the House Headship .
Poidimani is a crook that conned Hilda Toledo and, understanding that she could never be a rightful candidate, forged a family tree claiming he was descendant (illegitimate) of D.Afonso, Duke of Porto, while he was living in Italy after the fall of the monarchy.

So, the only one with a solid claim is D.Duarte.
Don't let yourself be misled by his enemies

[Menarue]

Seen, read and understood but not 100% agreed with.

[JSP]

Originally Posted by Menarue

Seen, read and understood but not 100% agreed with.

Never mind ! I am sure one day you will see the light

[Menarue]

Originally Posted by JSP

Never mind ! I am sure one day you will see the light

JSP we are battling on the same side. I was referring to the person who I cannot bear to even hear talk about "Poidamani".
The only claimant to the throne is D.Duarte.
The others haven´t got a chance.......

[Regina]

So, the only one with a solid claim is D.Duarte.

Don't let yourself be misled by his enemies

Some Portuguese like D. Duarte's personality so they will support him till the end no matter what. Anyway you won't see D. Duarte as King of Portugal because that would be an illegal decision.

Yes, the Republican State recognize him. But why should we care with that? Did you ever think why the republicans recognize, support and even have friendly relationship with D. Duarte?... IMO, because they know that with him, the monarchy won't have a chance. If the pretender to the throne was Alberto João Jardim you can be sure the State wouldn't recognize him so easily....

The RF's invite him to the weddings, etc, because he is related with most of these RF's. The RF's don't care if our pretender is Duarte or António, or Francisco, etc. They accept him because they have to accept someone.
Let's be honest, with D. Duarte, the portuguese royal family will remain irrelevant.

The Loulés ? Nobody (99.99%) knows about them in Portugal, and even lesser have heard of them outside.

IMO, it doesn't matter if people know Loulés or not. Loulé is not the real pretender because his ancestors don't count to the sucession, and not because he is not popular.

The van Udens support D.Duarte.

You are right
But if van Uden doesn't want to fight for his title then too bad for him. He still has not the right to support anyone else. van Uden's children are still before D. Duarte.
I find this van Uden's position a very sad one. I hope his children think differently.

Nuno da Câmara Pereira is supported by himself and his large family but he doesn't count a penny for the House Headship .

True.

Poidimani is a crook that conned Hilda Toledo and, understanding that she could never be a rightful candidate, forged a family tree claiming he was descendant (illegitimate) of D.Afonso, Duke of Porto, while he was living in Italy after the fall of the monarchy.

True.

So, the only one with a solid claim is D.Duarte.

And the solid claim is... ? There is no solid claim, sorry.

- you have no documents proving that he was born on portuguese soil

- his ancestors and uncles/gr.uncles who were born in Germany/Austria.

- the Law of Banishment was only revogated in 1950. D. Duarte was born befoe this year.

- Queen Amelia, the last portuguese queen, didn't like D. Duarte's father and didn't support him. If she recognize Duarte in her will that was only because Salazar asked her, as she says in one of her letters.

- There is NO proof that King Manuel accept them as his heirs. That would be a very strange thing to do since Manuel died at a very young age. How could he know that he would die at an early age without children?...

If you wish to read a long explanation of each point, read my last posts.

There is no solid claim. Except if you find your personal preferences a solid claim.

I wouldn't like to see him as our King because IMO (and here yes, I am writing a personal opinion) I don't find him wise and smart. He says incredible things in his interviews like "I say what I want because I don't need votes"

[JSP]

Hi Regina

I've read your previous posts.

You don't like particularly D.Duarte.
That's your opinion and I must respect it.

But it seems you want to impose a candidate that never considered stepping forward.

When D.Duarte was still a bachelor, the press talked of a meeting where D.Francisco insisted with D.Duarte either to get married or to appoint Francisco's son as a heir to the throne succession , and Francisco comitted himself to educate his son as a future heir.

I guess that the fact that he wanted D.Duarte to appoint Afonso to be in line for the throne speaks for itself .

The relations between the two cousins were a bit tense at the time as
D.Duarte had not set aside the idea of getting married and starting a family.
Time prooved him right .
He did got married and had 3 lovely children .

The van Uden family kept its status quo within the RF which is not the same as saying they were successors to the throne .
In an interview, Infanta D.Maria Adelaide once said that she presented to D.Duarte Nuno the fait-accompli that she had got married without asking her brother's previous approval.
Times were difficult, it was the end of WW2 and communications were scarce .
According to the Infanta, D.Duarte Nuno later aprroved the marriage.
But as van Uden was dutch, that did not allow his children to be in line to the throne, as it did not allow his Thurn und Taxis nephews or the children of Infanta D.Antónia.
The Bragança-van Udens later applied for portuguese citizenship, some on the ground that they were born in Portugal, the elder on the ground that their Mother was Portuguese.
Ooooops, how could the Infanta be Portuguese and D.Duarte Nuno not ?

Anyway, as Francisco van Uden doesn't seem at all interested in opening any breeches in the RF and the monarchic movement, he can remain your "Charming Prince" , a well of vertues and intelligence, but, nevertheless, the candidate that never was.


"The RF's invite him to the weddings, etc, because he is related with most of these RF's. "

He is related to them in the same degree as Francisco van Uden.
They are first cousins.
(Apart from his brazilian relatives on D.Duarte's Mother side)


"He still has not the right to support anyone else"

That I cannot understand.
He is not a claimant to the throne.
Neither are his sons, brothers and nephews.
He recognizes D.Duarte as the Head of the Family and you still say he has not the right to support anyone else ?


"his ancestors and uncles/gr.uncles who were born in Germany/Austria"

while Infanta D.Maria Adelaide was born in France.
That changes everything


"He says incredible things in his interviews like "I say what I want because I don't need votes" "

Well, I like people who say what they want - at a certain degree - without being always trying to say the politically correct, the most hypocrit concept ever discovered.
Politicians do not say what they want or what they think.
They are always trying to get your vote and tell you what YOU want to hear, even if it is 100% false.
Thank goodness D.Duarte does not need to twist his concience and can speak with entire freedom .

[Regina]

Originally Posted by JSP

But it seems you want to impose a candidate that never considered stepping forward.

Same as you, who wants to impose a candidate who doesn't have any legal base to call himself "the heir" But that's ok, we all have our own preferences, no big deal.

When D.Duarte was still a bachelor, the press talked of a meeting where D.Francisco insisted with D.Duarte either to get married or to appoint Francisco's son as a heir to the throne succession , and Francisco comitted himself to educate his son as a future heir.

I guess that the fact that he wanted D.Duarte to appoint Afonso to be in line for the throne speaks for itself .

First, we cannot be 100% sure of this meeting. The press mentioned it, but we don't know if that really happened. Second, how could D. Duarte appoint Francisco's son as a heir if Duarte had brothers? If Duarte was the heir, then Miguel and Henrique (his younger brothers) couldn't be ignored, don't you think?

But well, we are used to see Duarte changing everything in order to please his wishes. Just look at what he did with the first daughter of Duke of Cadaval...

According to the Infanta, D.Duarte Nuno later aprroved the marriage.
But as van Uden was dutch, that did not allow his children to be in line to the throne, as it did not allow his Thurn und Taxis nephews or the children of Infanta D.Antónia.

I don't know that interview. If you can, please post it. I have a question: why would Duarte Nuno not allow the marriage of her sister with a Dutch?

Anyway, as Francisco van Uden doesn't seem at all interested in opening any breeches in the RF and the monarchic movement, he can remain your "Charming Prince" , a well of vertues and intelligence, but, nevertheless, the candidate that never was.

He is not my charming prince. I admire him as a person. At least he didn't invite to his wedding Masons (those who killed King D. Carlos were Masons) as Duarte did.

Well, I like people who say what they want - at a certain degree - without being always trying to say the politically correct, the most hypocrit concept ever discovered.

Yes, at a certain degree...
IMO, calling names as stupid, idiot or senil is not proper of someone who wants to become a King. And telling to the press very weird stories as when in the middle of the war in Timor, some tribal kings called him to shout "Where is the King?! We want to talk to the king!"...........

His friendships are even a bit weird. He is a monarchist and he invites socialists and republicans to write the prefaces of his books. He says he is a devout roman catholic but he doesn't refrain himself to attend Masonary reunions. And don't forget that he fought in the guerra de Africa but in 1973 he was helping independentists african parties.
Oh, and don't forget when a journalist asked him if was fan od any soccer club. His reply was "I was a Benfica's supporter. But only when it didn't have foreign players playing"....

You may not support van Uden. That's ok. I believe he is the heir, but if he was not, I wouldn't support him. No one should support Duarte only because the others (the fadist, the italian, Loulé) are not the legal heirs.

Do you have any official document proving that Duarte is the heir? Do you have something objective? I am not asking for personal opinions or for things like "the Queen of England recognizes him", "He is the heir because Salazar said so", "everyone like him", "I am very fond of his personality", "the others are just enemies", etc.

- The Pacto de Denver never existed.
- Duarte was not born in Portuguese territory
- His father served a non-portuguese army
- Duarte was born in 1945 and the Law of Banishment was only revogated in 1950.
- Queen Amelia was not fond of his father.

[Danny SR]

Dear, Dear Regina I see you are still standing firm by the Van Uden's "claim." First in the case of the Cadaval issue, he recognizes Diana as Duchesse because she is the ligitimate daughter of the late Duke. I say this because as you well know his first marriage was only a cilvil one, and his 2nd was through the church and as is the situation in most noble and royal families the church weddings is what counts in terms of who will inherit titles. Also, as you know I must defend D. Duarte...lol, as you said that we can never know if D. Duarte and Van Uden had that meeting, neither can we say if the Pacto de Denver never existed. Also if Queen Amelia liked or disliked D. Duarte's family doesnt really matter what matters were her actions, by suporting the family, and even accepting to be D. Duarte Pio's godmother.

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Danny SR

neither can we say if the Pacto de Denver never existed.

The only thing proving the Pacto is this picture

Also if Queen Amelia liked or disliked D. Duarte's family doesnt really matter what matters were her actions, by suporting the family, and even accepting to be D. Duarte Pio's godmother.

Only because Salazar asked her to

[richardsw]

Does the Duke of Loule have a strong claim? What if the Miguel line, having lost their succession rights as claimed in the former Constitution, would the descendants of King Manoel's sisters have a better claim? Thanks

[Menarue]

King Manoel only had one sister D. Maria Ana and as far as I know she never married so there are no descendants.
That is why a woman claiming to be the illegitimate daughter of King Carlos said she had a claim to the throne and all the mess surrounding the claims of Poidamani came about.

[Regina]

Originally Posted by richardsw

Does the Duke of Loule have a strong claim? What if the Miguel line, having lost their succession rights as claimed in the former Constitution, would the descendants of King Manoel's sisters have a better claim? Thanks

Richardsw,
as Menarue said, King Manuel had only one legitimate sister, Infanta Maria Ana. She was a premature newborn and didn't survive. Are you sure about the name of the king?

[richardsw]

Sorry how about the descendants of King Manoel's great-aunt?

[Elsa M.]

Originally Posted by richardsw

Does the Duke of Loule have a strong claim? What if the Miguel line, having lost their succession rights as claimed in the former Constitution, would the descendants of King Manoel's sisters have a better claim?

The Duke of Loulé descends from Infanta Ana de Jesus de Bragança (the sister of Kings D. Pedro IV and D. Miguel). His claim is based on that D. Pedro's line ended with King D. Manuel II and D. Miguel's line has lost the right to the succession since the 1834 constitution.

Sorry how about the descendants of King Manoel's great-aunt?

You mean Infanta Maria Ana de Bragança? Her children were not born in Portugal, so they are all excluded.

[Elsa M.]

Originally Posted by JSP

Well, I like people who say what they want - at a certain degree - without being always trying to say the politically correct, the most hypocrit concept ever discovered.
Politicians do not say what they want or what they think.
They are always trying to get your vote and tell you what YOU want to hear, even if it is 100% false.
Thank goodness D.Duarte does not need to twist his concience and can speak with entire freedom .

Well, I don't really think that D. Duarte saying whatever he thinks is a smart thing either... just look at what's happening to Queen Sofia, right now.

For that matter, a king is not any different from a president; they should only say what is politically correct, because at the end of the day they must be neutral.

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Elsa M.

Well, I don't really think that D. Duarte saying whatever he thinks is a smart thing either... just look at what's happening to Queen Sofia, right now.

For that matter, a king is not any different from a president; they should only say what is politically correct, because at the end of the day they must be neutral.

Yes, I agree with you Elsa.

Queen Sofia is facing a polemic she didn't desire, that's for sure :(

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Regina

Yes, I agree with you Elsa.

Queen Sofia is facing a polemic she didn't desire, that's for sure :(

I have been so focused on our own political and economic circumstances, I am afraid I have not been keeping up on what else has been going on in the world. So, I apologize for not keeping up, but what controversy has Queen Sofia been involved in, and exactly what did D. Duarte say?

I would agree that no one should simply say whatever is on their mind. I believe in discretion. However, at the same time, I am not fond of the "political correctness mind-set". It seems to me that "political correctness" has been used as a weapon to keep people from speaking directly and honestly. I believe, and I find it refreshing, that people ought to speak directly and honestly. They should speak from their principles.

[Warren]

Keith, Queen Sofia has shared a few of her private thoughts in a book published to coincide with her 70th birthday.
See this thread in the Royal Library: 'Queen Sofia Up Close' by Pilar Urbano.

[Portugal]

Originally Posted by Regina

- The Pacto de Denver never existed.
- Duarte was not born in Portuguese territory
- His father served a non-portuguese army
- Duarte was born in 1945 and the Law of Banishment was only revogated in 1950.
- Queen Amelia was not fond of his father.

Hello Regina!

The Pact of Dover did exist.• Vendo Tópico - Março 10 1912 'Pact de Dover acordo' falou sogra D. Miguel

That article was written just three months after the meeting of the same year.

As far as everything else not being born on portuguese soil,it does not matter because of the pact of dover.It does not make anysense to say Dom Duarte Pio Braganca is not the rightful heir because he was not born in Portugal.

[Portugal]

Originally Posted by Regina

And the solid claim is... ? There is no solid claim, sorry.


- There is NO proof that King Manuel accept them as his heirs.

There is proof.It was the Pact of Dover.

That would be a very strange thing to do since Manuel died at a very young age. How could he know that he would die at an early age without children?...

The succession agreements where done so in order to protect the Monarchy.King Manuel II at the time was young as you pointed out and he was also heirless,so it's no surpise that he would agree to choose an heir.