Claims to the Portuguese Throne

[Regina]

Fortunately, all the CD's I have purchased come with the lyrics in both English and Portuguese. But I have started to try (With the emphasis on "try") to teach myself a little Portuguese.

If you need some help, PM me, I'll be glad to help.

 

[JSP]

I'll reply to the rest of the post tomorrow but I wanted to say that there is a written document of Carlota Joaquina's approval. I was searching and I found it on "Usurpador".

I am not 100% sure but I think that as Infanta married a non-royal man, she lost her rights to the Throne. Am I right?

The problem is that it was not for Carlota Joaquina to approve.
She was the Dowager Queen, but Infanta D.Isabel Maria was the Regent.
Only her, or any of her brothers, whichever you think had the best rights, couls and should have approved.
Carlota Joaquina's signature on that document, even if it is a legal one - which considering the source, is doubtful imho - is absolutely irrelevant

 

[Regina]

Illegal ???
Do you think that D.Duarte Nuno smuggled D.Maria Francisca in the Embassy through the back door ?
Of course it was not illegal, since Salazar approved the plan.
And these days, Salazar was the law
As you must know, Embassies are a state national territory.
D.Duarte Pio was born in Berne in Portuguese territory

JSP, I understand you admire D. Duarte and you accept him as your King, but you must see that there are no documents proving Duarte's birthplace. The only thing we have is Duarte Nuno's word, nothing else. How can you be so sure that his son was born at the Embassy? I know that Embassies are a state national territory but if you are banned from Portugal, your wife can't give birth to your children on Portuguese territory. You can't even enter on Portuguese territory.
And why would you use Portuguese earth under the bed if you're in Portuguese soil?

Salazar was the Law at the time. Ok, I agree. Then show me some document or speech of Salazar declaring "Duarte Pio was born in Portuguese territory". If Salazar wanted to make sure Duarte Nuno's child would be born in Portugal... he would allow them to come back and have the child here!

Regina it was an illegal act under the monarchy, in my thinking, and might or may not be right, since the republic had thrown out the constitutional letter of 1826 and replaced it with a republican one, then D. Duarte's family wasnt the only ones not allowed but the whole royal family. Since technically that branch of the family had no royal rights then wouldnt they had be able to step foot on portuguese soil?

Maybe you're right, Danny. But the fact is that the Law of Banishment was only revogated in 1950.

I suppose so.
He was supporting Nuno at the launch of "O Usurpador"

How surprising... or maybe not so surprising since the Câmara Pereira family members work as a clan...

Your support to Francisco van Uden is new to me.

If you read my posts you'll see I've always supported van Uden

When D. Duarte got married I thought Duarte was the real Head of the House because... well, everyone said so. But then a friend of mine (who would Love to live in a monarchy I must say...) told me that D. Duarte was Not the real Heir. I thought he was joking... I really didn't believe him. But then I started to study all this sucession story and the fact is that Duarte doesn't fulfil the requisits. I understand people like him (I have some members of my family who know D. Duarte personally and they all say he is a great person with sense of humor humor, generosity, and I don't doubt it) but IMO we must separate emotional attachment from the Law. I don't say all Duarte's supporters have an emotional attachment toward him but in Portugal sometimes it's difficult for people to seat, study and discover by themselves what the law (and only the law) says. We are an emotional people and IMO sometimes we loose with that.

We all know this is an inglorious discussion because Portugal won't have a Monarchy again, but it's always good to discuss who is our representant on international royal events, etc.

Having said that, if he wanted D.Duarte to appoint his son (and not him) as the heir, that means he does not consider himself in the race I would say

If he doesn't want his Title, then I hope his son will one day.

D.Miguel and his family did not loose their nationality.
They were deprived from it by a terrorist act.
Depriving someone from its nationality is the most abject conduct a government can take over one of his citizens .
Having been cohersed to sign the Évora-Monte convention, it was not surprising that D.Miguel had retracted from the infamous treaty he was forced to sign.
He always considered himself Portuguese and was recognized as such internationally.

It is an abject conduct but it happened. And at the time it was not considerated as an terrorist act as it would be now.
And yes JSP, D. Miguel and his family lost their portuguese nationality.

D. Duarte, Duke of Loulé, Francisco van Uden are all descendents of D. Miguel. The only one who has nothing to do with him is Poidimani

A law that was never respected neither by the reigning RF.
D.Miguel I is supposed to have entertained an interview with D.Pedro V at Mafra Palace, and D.Miguel II; Infanta D.Aldegundes and her husband visited Lisbon years later. They were recognized at a theater and for mere caution, they left the place.

Ok, but that doesn't change anything There are no D. Pedro's descendents to blame now So if it was a terrorist act or not doesn't matter much IMO because all these actual pretenders to the throne are D. Miguel's descendents.

 

[JSP]

JSP, I understand you admire D. Duarte and you accept him as your King, but you must see that there are no documents proving Duarte's birthplace. The only thing we have is Duarte Nuno's word, nothing else. How can you be so sure that his son was born at the Embassy? .

GeneAll.net - D. Duarte Pio, duque de Bragança

I know that Embassies are a state national territory but if you are banned from Portugal, your wife can't give birth to your children on Portuguese territory. You can't even enter on Portuguese territory.
And why would you use Portuguese earth under the bed if you're in Portuguese soil?

Not D.Duarte Pio, who was born in the embassy but his ancestors and uncles/gr.uncles who were born in Germany/Austria.

Salazar was the Law at the time. Ok, I agree. Then show me some document or speech of Salazar declaring "Duarte Pio was born in Portuguese territory". If Salazar wanted to make sure Duarte Nuno's child would be born in Portugal... he would allow them to come back and have the child here!

Salazar was a true discipule of Macchiavel. He played several tables at the same time. He could not upset the republicans too much and neither he wanted to be estranged from the monarchics. So it was a clever way to satisfy everybody.

Maybe you're right, Danny. But the fact is that the Law of Banishment was only revogated in 1950.

How surprising... or maybe not so surprising since the Câmara Pereira family members work as a clan...

D. Duarte, Duke of Loulé, Francisco van Uden are all descendents of D. Miguel. The only one who has nothing to do with him is Poidimani

Ok, but that doesn't change anything There are no D. Pedro's descendents to blame now

So if it was a terrorist act or not doesn't matter much IMO because all these actual pretenders to the throne are D. Miguel's descendents.

Except the Loulé

 

[JSP]

JSP, I understand you admire D. Duarte and you accept him as your King, but you must see that there are no documents proving Duarte's birthplace. The only thing we have is Duarte Nuno's word, nothing else.

How can you be so sure that his son was born at the Embassy? I know that Embassies are a state national territory but if you are banned from Portugal, your wife can't give birth to your children on Portuguese territory. You can't even enter on Portuguese territory.
And why would you use Portuguese earth under the bed if you're in Portuguese soil?

Every book I read stated that D.Duarte Pio was born at the Portuguese Embassy in Berne.
It is a common knowledge fact.
If it was the opposite, I am sure someone, even from the Foreign Office, would have step forward for ages.

and
Paginas Oficiais da Casa Real Portuguesa

 

[Regina]

GeneAll.net - D. Duarte Pio, duque de Bragança

Not D.Duarte Pio, who was born in the embassy but his ancestors and uncles/gr.uncles who were born in Germany/Austria.

Salazar was a true discipule of Macchiavel. He played several tables at the same time. He could not upset the republicans too much and neither he wanted to be estranged from the monarchics. So it was a clever way to satisfy everybody.

IMO, the Republicans (leftists, communists) at the time were not concerned with D. Duarte. What they wanted at the time was to abolish the Regime. Salazar knew that the Republicans (Mario Soares, Cunhal, etc) would never be at his side, with or without Salazar.
Do not forget that Salazar was a monarchist since ever. And do not forget that Queen Amelia has no special feelings for Duarte Nuno's family. So, I dare to say that Salazar didn't like Duarte's family and he would had called them, as Franco did.

Except the Loulé

Yes, of course, my mistake. Duke of Loulé doesn't descend from D. Miguel but from Infanta Ana de Jesus. Infanta Ana, who was pregnant when she got married, lost her rights to the Throne, as I think most people agree.
Duke of Loulé is divorced from his wife. Can he still claim the Title? I don't think the Portuguese would support a divorced man for their king.

Every book I read stated that D.Duarte Pio was born at the Portuguese Embassy in Berne.
It is a common knowledge fact.
If it was the opposite, I am sure someone, even from the Foreign Office, would have step forward for ages.

I wouldn't be so sure. Most Portuguese don't care for a Monarchy so this topic would never lead to many discussions. And I don't believe the Foreign Office ever cared about this topic. Nuno CP and Poidimani's friends did us the favour to contest the Duarte's birth story and now everything is being investigated.

 

[Menarue]

Menarue, I have listened to Maria Ana Bobone and yes, she has a beautiful voice. I have a DVD coming, "Fado Today", that has the performances of Maria Ana Bobone. Also, the next CD I intend to purchase is her "Senhora Da Lapa" (This seems to be the only one available in the US).

And Regina, I have also listened to Cristina Branco and I like her as well. Actually I had order two DVD's, "Fado Today", and the second one has her performances.

Fortunately, all the CD's I have purchased come with the lyrics in both English and Portuguese. But I have started to try (With the emphasis on "try") to teach myself a little Portuguese.

Anyway, I must apologize to everyone for this digression since I am off topic. But just thought I would respond to Menarue's and Regina's recommendations.

I am very glad you did Keith and I hope that you continue to enjoy Fado as well as all this controversy about a non-existent throne.

 

[Keith]

I am very glad you did Keith and I hope that you continue to enjoy Fado as well as all this controversy about a non-existent throne.

Thank you, and in fact I am listening to Ana Moura as I write this reply. In regard to the "throne", even though it is non-existent it is still integral to Portugal's history and therefore a wonderful tradition to maintain, and I would think that it still provides a point of unity and pride for the Portuguese people. From my perspective it seems to provide a depth to the Portuguese heritage. I am glad that you and others have this forum to continue the richness of that heritage.

 

[Menarue]

So am I.
I am reading a really enjoyable book called "Filipa de Lencastre" A rainha que mudou Portugal (The Queen who Changed Portugal) by Isabel Stilwell. I don´t know if it is translated into English yet but when it is you must read it.
As it is historically correct but written more as a novel it is very easy reading unlike some very dry historical books. I read them all, dry or not, but this one has been a welcome change.

 

[Keith]

So am I.
I am reading a really enjoyable book called "Filipa de Lencastre" A rainha que mudou Portugal (The Queen who Changed Portugal) by Isabel Stilwell. I don´t know if it is translated into English yet but when it is you must read it.
As it is historically correct but written more as a novel it is very easy reading unlike some very dry historical books. I read them all, dry or not, but this one has been a welcome change.

I will look to see if that book is available. Right now, I have just started reading The Murmuring Coast by Lidia Jorge.

 

[Regina]

Every book I read stated that D.Duarte Pio was born at the Portuguese Embassy in Berne.
It is a common knowledge fact.
If it was the opposite, I am sure someone, even from the Foreign Office, would have step forward for ages.

and
Paginas Oficiais da Casa Real Portuguesa

The official site of the Portuguese royal family is managed by D. Duarte so obviously he writes there what he wants.

JSP, with all my respect but the only thing that proves where D. Duarte was born is this official Birth Certificate (public document), that I found in reifazdeconta site.

The document includes the obvious informations about him (name, gender, birth date, parents's names) but also the important information for this topic: Naturality. The official document says he was born in Bern, Switzerland.

It dosn't mention any Embassy, or Portuguese soil, or whatever. It says Bern, Switzerland.

 

[Danny SR]

I must addmit I have never seen the birth certificate before but the embassy is in Bern, Switzerland so that is right, so it reallt doesnt prove or disprove anything. I know that if someone is born on a American militar base anywhere in the world they are american and the birth certificate would say name of base, USA. But I dont know how it works in other countries. At the end of the day only those who where there know exactly what happened. But one has to think that if in fact he was born in the embassy, which I dont think he is lieing about, there must be a record of it in the embassy, just look there...lol

 

[Regina]

I must addmit I have never seen the birth certificate before but the embassy is in Bern, Switzerland so that is right, so it reallt doesnt prove or disprove anything. I know that if someone is born on a American militar base anywhere in the world they are american and the birth certificate would say name of base, USA. But I dont know how it works in other countries. At the end of the day only those who where there know exactly what happened. But one has to think that if in fact he was born in the embassy, which I dont think he is lieing about, there must be a record of it in the embassy, just look there...lol

If someone is born on an American militar base, the birth certificate will mention that, as you said. The same should be applied for Embassies

I agree with you, the document doesn't prove anything. If we believe or not that he was born in Portugal that's up with us. It's always a personal opinion. The reality is that till now I've never seen any (official) document declaring he was born in Portuguese soil.

 

[JSP]

I guess one could always try the Portuguese Foreign Office.
There shpuld be any record of such (unusual) event.

 

[Count]

If someone is born on an American militar base, the birth certificate will mention that, as you said. The same should be applied for Embassies

I agree with you, the document doesn't prove anything. If we believe or not that he was born in Portugal that's up with us. It's always a personal opinion. The reality is that till now I've never seen any (official) document declaring he was born in Portuguese soil.

It not important where a person (in exile) was born...Don Juan Carlos was born in Rome during the exile of the Royal family and he is the King of Spain... that's why he speaks perfect Italian.

 

[JSP]

It's different.
Portuguese succession law required that the heir to the throne was born on portuguese "soil".

BTW where was JC born ? Their parent's house ? A hospital/maternity ?

 

[Regina]

BTW where was JC born ? Their parent's house ? A hospital/maternity ?

King Juan Carlos was born in the Anglo-American Hospital in Rome (January 5, 1938)

 

[Count]

It's different.
Portuguese succession law required that the heir to the throne was born on portuguese "soil".

BTW where was JC born ? Their parent's house ? A hospital/maternity ?

Oops!

 

[Next Star]

There is alot of confusing in this non reigning house on who should get the headship and the defacto claims to the default throne.It seems none of the people mentioned in the many previous posts who are members of this house are qualiflied which I find kinda of shocking.In somehow or someway there as to be atleast one member of this house who can take the headship.

 

[Regina]

A question Regina, why do you include Poidimani? Surely you can´t think he has any claim, or do you? Van Uden, and the others all have some claim to the throne, or at least the right to think they may have some claim, but Poidimani, the self proclaimed heir to the perhaps illegitimate daughter of the last king, who as far as I know (I may be wrong on this) was never really proved to be this. Poidimani wasn´t even related to her in any way he was supposed to support her in exchange for some adoption papers but she complained that he didn´t even keep his side of the bargain.
I am not trying to be argumentive, just curious.

Poidimani has absolutly no rights to the Throne. He seems (at least to me)a cultured and good mannered person, but he is 100% out of the race. IMO, he is not right about his rights to the Throne but he is right about many of the accusations he does against D Duarte.

 

[JSP]

There is alot of confusing in this non reigning house on who should get the headship and the defacto claims to the default throne.It seems none of the people mentioned in the many previous posts who are members of this house are qualiflied which I find kinda of shocking.In somehow or someway there as to be atleast one member of this house who can take the headship.

Of course there is one.
D.Duarte, the Duke of Bragança.
Not only he is the one officially recognized by the State, but also the one that is universally recognized by all foreign RFs.

Luckily we do not have the problem that the Two Sicilies or the brazilian Braganças had, with 2 candidates disputing the House Headship.

Do you know any RF or State that recognizes anyone but the Duke of Bragança ?

The Loulés ? Nobody (99.99%) knows about them in Portugal, and even lesser have heard of them outside.
The van Udens support D.Duarte.
Nuno da Câmara Pereira is supported by himself and his large family but he doesn't count a penny for the House Headship .
Poidimani is a crook that conned Hilda Toledo and, understanding that she could never be a rightful candidate, forged a family tree claiming he was descendant (illegitimate) of D.Afonso, Duke of Porto, while he was living in Italy after the fall of the monarchy.

So, the only one with a solid claim is D.Duarte.
Don't let yourself be misled by his enemies

 

[Menarue]

Seen, read and understood but not 100% agreed with.

 

[JSP]

Seen, read and understood but not 100% agreed with.

Never mind ! I am sure one day you will see the light

 

[Menarue]

Never mind ! I am sure one day you will see the light

JSP we are battling on the same side. I was referring to the person who I cannot bear to even hear talk about "Poidamani".
The only claimant to the throne is D.Duarte.
The others haven´t got a chance.......

 

[Regina]

So, the only one with a solid claim is D.Duarte.

Don't let yourself be misled by his enemies

Some Portuguese like D. Duarte's personality so they will support him till the end no matter what. Anyway you won't see D. Duarte as King of Portugal because that would be an illegal decision.

Yes, the Republican State recognize him. But why should we care with that? Did you ever think why the republicans recognize, support and even have friendly relationship with D. Duarte?... IMO, because they know that with him, the monarchy won't have a chance. If the pretender to the throne was Alberto João Jardim you can be sure the State wouldn't recognize him so easily....

The RF's invite him to the weddings, etc, because he is related with most of these RF's. The RF's don't care if our pretender is Duarte or António, or Francisco, etc. They accept him because they have to accept someone.
Let's be honest, with D. Duarte, the portuguese royal family will remain irrelevant.

The Loulés ? Nobody (99.99%) knows about them in Portugal, and even lesser have heard of them outside.

IMO, it doesn't matter if people know Loulés or not. Loulé is not the real pretender because his ancestors don't count to the sucession, and not because he is not popular.

The van Udens support D.Duarte.

You are right
But if van Uden doesn't want to fight for his title then too bad for him. He still has not the right to support anyone else. van Uden's children are still before D. Duarte.
I find this van Uden's position a very sad one. I hope his children think differently.

Nuno da Câmara Pereira is supported by himself and his large family but he doesn't count a penny for the House Headship .

True.

Poidimani is a crook that conned Hilda Toledo and, understanding that she could never be a rightful candidate, forged a family tree claiming he was descendant (illegitimate) of D.Afonso, Duke of Porto, while he was living in Italy after the fall of the monarchy.

True.

So, the only one with a solid claim is D.Duarte.

And the solid claim is... ? There is no solid claim, sorry.

- you have no documents proving that he was born on portuguese soil

- his ancestors and uncles/gr.uncles who were born in Germany/Austria.

- the Law of Banishment was only revogated in 1950. D. Duarte was born befoe this year.

- Queen Amelia, the last portuguese queen, didn't like D. Duarte's father and didn't support him. If she recognize Duarte in her will that was only because Salazar asked her, as she says in one of her letters.

- There is NO proof that King Manuel accept them as his heirs. That would be a very strange thing to do since Manuel died at a very young age. How could he know that he would die at an early age without children?...

If you wish to read a long explanation of each point, read my last posts.

There is no solid claim. Except if you find your personal preferences a solid claim.

I wouldn't like to see him as our King because IMO (and here yes, I am writing a personal opinion) I don't find him wise and smart. He says incredible things in his interviews like "I say what I want because I don't need votes"

 

[JSP]

Hi Regina

I've read your previous posts.

You don't like particularly D.Duarte.
That's your opinion and I must respect it.

But it seems you want to impose a candidate that never considered stepping forward.

When D.Duarte was still a bachelor, the press talked of a meeting where D.Francisco insisted with D.Duarte either to get married or to appoint Francisco's son as a heir to the throne succession , and Francisco comitted himself to educate his son as a future heir.

I guess that the fact that he wanted D.Duarte to appoint Afonso to be in line for the throne speaks for itself .

The relations between the two cousins were a bit tense at the time as
D.Duarte had not set aside the idea of getting married and starting a family.
Time prooved him right .
He did got married and had 3 lovely children .

The van Uden family kept its status quo within the RF which is not the same as saying they were successors to the throne .
In an interview, Infanta D.Maria Adelaide once said that she presented to D.Duarte Nuno the fait-accompli that she had got married without asking her brother's previous approval.
Times were difficult, it was the end of WW2 and communications were scarce .
According to the Infanta, D.Duarte Nuno later aprroved the marriage.
But as van Uden was dutch, that did not allow his children to be in line to the throne, as it did not allow his Thurn und Taxis nephews or the children of Infanta D.Antónia.
The Bragança-van Udens later applied for portuguese citizenship, some on the ground that they were born in Portugal, the elder on the ground that their Mother was Portuguese.
Ooooops, how could the Infanta be Portuguese and D.Duarte Nuno not ?

Anyway, as Francisco van Uden doesn't seem at all interested in opening any breeches in the RF and the monarchic movement, he can remain your "Charming Prince" , a well of vertues and intelligence, but, nevertheless, the candidate that never was.


"The RF's invite him to the weddings, etc, because he is related with most of these RF's. "

He is related to them in the same degree as Francisco van Uden.
They are first cousins.
(Apart from his brazilian relatives on D.Duarte's Mother side)


"He still has not the right to support anyone else"

That I cannot understand.
He is not a claimant to the throne.
Neither are his sons, brothers and nephews.
He recognizes D.Duarte as the Head of the Family and you still say he has not the right to support anyone else ?


"his ancestors and uncles/gr.uncles who were born in Germany/Austria"

while Infanta D.Maria Adelaide was born in France.
That changes everything


"He says incredible things in his interviews like "I say what I want because I don't need votes" "

Well, I like people who say what they want - at a certain degree - without being always trying to say the politically correct, the most hypocrit concept ever discovered.
Politicians do not say what they want or what they think.
They are always trying to get your vote and tell you what YOU want to hear, even if it is 100% false.
Thank goodness D.Duarte does not need to twist his concience and can speak with entire freedom .

 

[Regina]

But it seems you want to impose a candidate that never considered stepping forward.

Same as you, who wants to impose a candidate who doesn't have any legal base to call himself "the heir" But that's ok, we all have our own preferences, no big deal.

When D.Duarte was still a bachelor, the press talked of a meeting where D.Francisco insisted with D.Duarte either to get married or to appoint Francisco's son as a heir to the throne succession , and Francisco comitted himself to educate his son as a future heir.

I guess that the fact that he wanted D.Duarte to appoint Afonso to be in line for the throne speaks for itself .

First, we cannot be 100% sure of this meeting. The press mentioned it, but we don't know if that really happened. Second, how could D. Duarte appoint Francisco's son as a heir if Duarte had brothers? If Duarte was the heir, then Miguel and Henrique (his younger brothers) couldn't be ignored, don't you think?

But well, we are used to see Duarte changing everything in order to please his wishes. Just look at what he did with the first daughter of Duke of Cadaval...

According to the Infanta, D.Duarte Nuno later aprroved the marriage.
But as van Uden was dutch, that did not allow his children to be in line to the throne, as it did not allow his Thurn und Taxis nephews or the children of Infanta D.Antónia.

I don't know that interview. If you can, please post it. I have a question: why would Duarte Nuno not allow the marriage of her sister with a Dutch?

Anyway, as Francisco van Uden doesn't seem at all interested in opening any breeches in the RF and the monarchic movement, he can remain your "Charming Prince" , a well of vertues and intelligence, but, nevertheless, the candidate that never was.

He is not my charming prince. I admire him as a person. At least he didn't invite to his wedding Masons (those who killed King D. Carlos were Masons) as Duarte did.

Well, I like people who say what they want - at a certain degree - without being always trying to say the politically correct, the most hypocrit concept ever discovered.

Yes, at a certain degree...
IMO, calling names as stupid, idiot or senil is not proper of someone who wants to become a King. And telling to the press very weird stories as when in the middle of the war in Timor, some tribal kings called him to shout "Where is the King?! We want to talk to the king!"...........

His friendships are even a bit weird. He is a monarchist and he invites socialists and republicans to write the prefaces of his books. He says he is a devout roman catholic but he doesn't refrain himself to attend Masonary reunions. And don't forget that he fought in the guerra de Africa but in 1973 he was helping independentists african parties.
Oh, and don't forget when a journalist asked him if was fan od any soccer club. His reply was "I was a Benfica's supporter. But only when it didn't have foreign players playing"....

You may not support van Uden. That's ok. I believe he is the heir, but if he was not, I wouldn't support him. No one should support Duarte only because the others (the fadist, the italian, Loulé) are not the legal heirs.

Do you have any official document proving that Duarte is the heir? Do you have something objective? I am not asking for personal opinions or for things like "the Queen of England recognizes him", "He is the heir because Salazar said so", "everyone like him", "I am very fond of his personality", "the others are just enemies", etc.

- The Pacto de Denver never existed.
- Duarte was not born in Portuguese territory
- His father served a non-portuguese army
- Duarte was born in 1945 and the Law of Banishment was only revogated in 1950.
- Queen Amelia was not fond of his father.

 

[Danny SR]

Dear, Dear Regina I see you are still standing firm by the Van Uden's "claim." First in the case of the Cadaval issue, he recognizes Diana as Duchesse because she is the ligitimate daughter of the late Duke. I say this because as you well know his first marriage was only a cilvil one, and his 2nd was through the church and as is the situation in most noble and royal families the church weddings is what counts in terms of who will inherit titles. Also, as you know I must defend D. Duarte...lol, as you said that we can never know if D. Duarte and Van Uden had that meeting, neither can we say if the Pacto de Denver never existed. Also if Queen Amelia liked or disliked D. Duarte's family doesnt really matter what matters were her actions, by suporting the family, and even accepting to be D. Duarte Pio's godmother.

 

[Regina]

neither can we say if the Pacto de Denver never existed.

The only thing proving the Pacto is this picture

Also if Queen Amelia liked or disliked D. Duarte's family doesnt really matter what matters were her actions, by suporting the family, and even accepting to be D. Duarte Pio's godmother.

Only because Salazar asked her to

 

[richardsw]

Does the Duke of Loule have a strong claim? What if the Miguel line, having lost their succession rights as claimed in the former Constitution, would the descendants of King Manoel's sisters have a better claim? Thanks