Claims to the Portuguese Throne

[Keith]

Who is this D. Rosario who claims to be the XXII Duque de Braganca? Is he a fraud or where does he fit in?

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Keith

Who is this D. Rosario who claims to be the XXII Duque de Braganca? Is he a fraud or where does he fit in?

Read here Keith.

IMO Rosario Poidimani is a smart person, someone who has well formed ideas and has been a good help to make people understand that D. Duarte has no rights to the Throne.
But... sadly (for him), the Throne doesn't belong to him since he is an Italian and he is a stranger for 99% of the Portuguese. But I still respect his commitment to the Portuguese Royal Cause.

I've tried to explain all this confused story of the Portuguese royal sucession to a German friend of mine... It's fantastic how Germans love royalty. And after quite some time studing with him who has (or not) right to the Throne, he tells me "But none of these pretenders (D. Francisco van Uden, D. Duarte, Duke of Loule, Rosario Poidimani) have 100% right to the Throne!! And funnily enough... he is right.

[Danny SR]

Regina that is oh so true, they all come short when it comes to their claims to the portuguese throne. But I must say Poidimani has no claim what so ever and neither did Maria Pia, because even if she was D. Carlos's daughter, which I highly doubt, he couldnt give her any rights because the law didnt alow her any rights and for him to have given any to her the courts would have had to approve it which they would have never done. But as I have said many times before I think the most quilfied is D. Duarte, I know you will dissagree with me...lol I must say I have read a bit more on D. Francisco van Uden but I still feel D. Duarte and his family is the hope for a future monarcy

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Danny SR

Regina that is oh so true, they all come short when it comes to their claims to the portuguese throne. But I must say Poidimani has no claim what so ever and neither did Maria Pia, because even if she was D. Carlos's daughter, which I highly doubt, he couldnt give her any rights because the law didnt alow her any rights and for him to have given any to her the courts would have had to approve it which they would have never done. But as I have said many times before I think the most quilfied is D. Duarte, I know you will dissagree with me...lol I must say I have read a bit more on D. Francisco van Uden but I still feel D. Duarte and his family is the hope for a future monarcy

Welcome back, Danny! (I hope the Portuguese in USA are rejoicing with our National Team in Europe cup )

Well, D. Carlos recognized Maria Pia as his daughter and Portugal had Kings who were born out of the wedlock, but the fact is that Poidimani doesn't even speaks Portuguese and he has no Portuguese blood.
Maria Pia had children so if she was the real Duchess of Braganza, the title would have to be given to one of her children, not to a stranger.

Yes, Danny, you still feel D. Duarte as the real pretender, but in these royal topics we can't just feel because feelings lead you to emotional decisions, IMO!
Anyway, I am glad to have a strong opponent so we can discuss about it here!

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Regina

Read here Keith.

IMO Rosario Poidimani is a smart person, someone who has well formed ideas and has been a good help to make people understand that D. Duarte has no rights to the Throne.
But... sadly (for him), the Throne doesn't belong to him since he is an Italian and he is a stranger for 99% of the Portuguese. But I still respect his commitment to the Portuguese Royal Cause.

I've tried to explain all this confused story of the Portuguese royal sucession to a German friend of mine... It's fantastic how Germans love royalty. And after quite some time studing with him who has (or not) right to the Throne, he tells me "But none of these pretenders (D. Francisco van Uden, D. Duarte, Duke of Loule, Rosario Poidimani) have 100% right to the Throne!! And funnily enough... he is right.

Regina, thanks for the information. I also came across the following:

"The Portuguese State recognises that, according to the aforementioned rules of succession, the Royal House of Braganza and its Head, Dom Duarte Pio, Duke of Braganza are the legitimate successors of the Kings of Portugal."

Data supplied by Luis Guerreiro, Portuguese heraldist.
Arms of H.R.H. Dom Duarte, Duke of Braganza - The Armorial Register

What are your thoughts on this?

[Count]

Not only the Portuguese State recognises Dom Duarte as Head of the Royal House and legitimate successors of the Kings of Portugal, but also the International Nobility, have a look to the "Almanach de Gotha" and you will not found any Poidimani.
I had the possibility to meet both and honestly I tell you that Mr. Poidimani spent all his time to convince me of his "rights" to the throne of Portugal, on the contrary Dom Duarte and his wife are really nice and speak about avery possible topic...

[Menarue]

Isn´t Poidimani the adopted son of Maria Pia? Adopted as an adult. If there is any instance of any adopted person who is not related to the person he was adopted by having the right to that person´s title? If so please tell me as I am very interested. There is a case in the British royal family where children of a Marquess who were born before the parents were married will not inherit the title, but the younger brother who was born in wedlock of the very same parents is the heir. It may seem a little unfair but that is the way it is.

[Elsa M.]

Originally Posted by Menarue

There is a case in the British royal family where children of a Marquess who were born before the parents were married will not inherit the title, but the younger brother who was born in wedlock of the very same parents is the heir. It may seem a little unfair but that is the way it is.

That's kind the same with the Cadaval Duchy... The late Duke of Cadaval had 5 children: two girls from his first (civil) marriage (Rosalinda and Maria Graziela), a son out of the wedlock (Jaime) and two girls from his religious marriage (Diana and Alexandra). It was Diana (the 4th child, but the eldest from the Catholic marriage) who inherited the title.

[Count]

Yes, Maria Pia adopted Poidimani but, another strange thing, Poidimani has not the family name Bragança...why...it seems that the adoption was only an "heraldic adoption"...

In any case if a member of a royal family adopts a person, this person receives only the family name, but NOT the rights to the title or the throne...Only the Head of the House (Dom Duarte) by decree, can recognise a person as his successor.

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Keith

Regina, thanks for the information. I also came across the following:

"The Portuguese State recognises that, according to the aforementioned rules of succession, the Royal House of Braganza and its Head, Dom Duarte Pio, Duke of Braganza are the legitimate successors of the Kings of Portugal."

Data supplied by Luis Guerreiro, Portuguese heraldist.
Arms of H.R.H. Dom Duarte, Duke of Braganza - The Armorial Register

What are your thoughts on this?

Freitas do Amaral recognized D. Duarte but he didn't explained his decision. How could a Professor of Law takes such decision without a DEEP study of the monarchist laws?
IMO, they should have called people related to Monarchist laws, like lawyers, teachers, historians,... to study everything and then decide with impartiality.

You can read here a bit more about Freitas do Amaral's decision. (Click on D. Rosario processa MNE). I am not a Poidimani's supporter but this work has important topics to be thought about.


Count, you said that only the Head of the House can recognise a person as his sucessor. But can he choose whoever they want?

[Menarue]

Some years back D.Maria Pia visited Portugal and appeared in public giving what was more of a harangue than a speech claiming that she was the real head of the house of Bragança. If she was really the illigitimate daughter of Rei Dom Carlos she still wouldn´t be the head of the house of Bragança by reason of being a bastard. How on earth could that lady say that a friend of the family, good business man or not could be the King of Portugal.
Portugal is a Republic and there is no King of Portugal and there isn´t likely to be in any near or distant future. There is a pretender to the throne, D.Duarte Nuno and thank goodness he will remain pretender until D.Afonso follows him. Squabbling over this becomes ridiculous. There are, it was said. some 300,000 descendants of royalty in Portugal today and I believe that the majority accept D. Duarte Nuno as the head of the House of Braganza.
I know that my family does.

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Menarue

There are, it was said. some 300,000 descendants of royalty in Portugal today and I believe that the majority accept D. Duarte Nuno as the head of the House of Braganza.
I know that my family does.

Well, no one accepts D. Duarte Nuno as the Head of the House because Duarte Nuno is dead. You must be refering to his son, D. Duarte Pio.

But why do they accept D. Duarte? Because traditionally he is accepted as the head of the House?
I support D. Francisco van Uden only because he fulfills all the requisites, I don't have any particular interest for not supporting D. Duarte. I admit I am not a great fan of most of his ideas but my personal opinions don't matter. What matter is to know if he really is the right person to be called Duke of Braganza or not. I just don't understand how can a person be accepted as the Head of the House of Braganza if his parents were not even Portuguese!

[Danny SR]

D. Duarte yes is not in compliance of the prerequisites to be a king of Portugal...lol this is true, in his family line there lies some things that would have kept him from becoming king during the monarcy. I am a stronge supporter of D. Duarte as you must already know Regina....hehehe but I am also the first to admit that there is a few flaus. But out of all these "pretenders" to the throne D. Duarte is the most qualified and also the most accepted not only to the portuguese but also within the other royal houses of europe. I must admit he doesnt sounds like a very smart man, but he has some very good ideas, ideas I think the government should sometimes listen to.

[paul1981]

I'm new here but I thought I'd weigh in with my opinion.

Portugal had 3 constitutions as a monarchy:

1. The one in 1822 it was in effect until 1826.

2. The charter drafted by Pedro IV in 1826 was in effect from 1826-1828, 1834-1838 & 1842-1910. This is the principal constitution of the monarchy.

3. The constitution of 1838 which lasted until 1842.

From what I've gathered the three state that a king must be Portuguese, must be acclaimed by parliament and must be of legitimate birth and descent. The constitution of 1838 bans Miguel I and his descendants, but it was only in effect for four years.

Being that Portugal is not a monarchy it is difficult to say which one has the most weight, but I tend to go with the Charter of 1826. There was a law that banned Miguel and his descendants from Portugal in 1834, but it was not enshrined in the charter it is revocable. In my opinion that automatically gives Dom Duarte more points than some random Italian man.

Assuming that Portugal were to ever restore a monarchy I would assume that the current Republican parliament would name the new king and a new constitution would be drafted. As all three constitutions do state the legitimate government lies in the hands of the people and their representatives. So if a new constitution were drafted, all previous constitutions would be null and void.

Finally, one thing I've never understood are their any Portuguese legitimists claiming that Pedro IV's abdication was illegitimate and that the throne really belongs to Pedro Carlos of Orleans-Braganca? After all he is the senior male descendant of Pedro IV.

[Menarue]

Originally Posted by Regina

Well, no one accepts D. Duarte Nuno as the Head of the House because Duarte Nuno is dead. You must be refering to his son, D. Duarte Pio.

But why do they accept D. Duarte? Because traditionally he is accepted as the head of the House?
I support D. Francisco van Uden only because he fulfills all the requisites, I don't have any particular interest for not supporting D. Duarte. I admit I am not a great fan of most of his ideas but my personal opinions don't matter. What matter is to know if he really is the right person to be called Duke of Braganza or not. I just don't understand how can a person be accepted as the Head of the House of Braganza if his parents were not even Portuguese!

Mea culpa, slip of the keyboard. About not being Portuguese, I still have problems with William of Orange when there was a Stuart alive.....

[Menarue]

I suppose my husband´s family are a bit biased. Perhaps the main reason is that they supported D.Miguel way back then.
In fact his great (4 times) grandfather died here for supporting him.

(Both sides at different times had family who died here but my husband´s family took it a bit personally).

[Regina]

But out of all these "pretenders" to the throne D. Duarte is the most qualified and also the most accepted not only to the portuguese but also within the other royal houses of europe.

Well, to be honest with you Danny, I don't think other royal houses of Europe spend much of their time thinking about if D. Duarte is or not the right head of the House of Braganza. D. Duarte says he has a good relationship with other royal houses. I dont have reasons to doubt it, but I dont believe he has a CLOSE relationship with any royal house at the moment. Neither he or his wife were invited to be godparents at any recent Christening.

I must admit he doesnt sounds like a very smart man, but he has some very good ideas, ideas I think the government should sometimes listen to.

I agree he has good ideas sometimes. I like to hear him when he talks about Europe identity and environment. I think he cares a lot about these 2 topics and he always says intereting thing about them (IMO).

Originally Posted by paul1981

In my opinion that automatically gives Dom Duarte more points than some random Italian man.

Poidimani would never be accepted. He would always be known as the adopted son of the murdered King D. Carlos' illegitimate daughter...


Paul, I didn't understand what you said here:

The constitution of 1838 bans Miguel I and his descendants, but it was only in effect for four years.

What was only in effect for four years? The Law of Banishement (Lei do Banimento) happened in 1834, and this law was only revoked in 1950 (after D. Duarte's birth).

Originally Posted by Menarue

I suppose my husband´s family are a bit biased. Perhaps the main reason is that they supported D.Miguel way back then.
In fact his great (4 times) grandfather died here for supporting him.

I know that with the defeat of the Miguelistas, the families that supported D. Miguel got impriosioned and some of them lost their fortunes. It's understandable that some portuguese families still feel this part of the History as a something painful, but do not forget that D. Duarte, on his mother's side, is also a descendent of D. Pedro while D. Francisco van Uden is a descendent of D. Miguel only.

[Menarue]

I hadn´t realised that Regina, I will have to study some family trees a bit more.
I doubt very much if any one of the pretenders will ever be more than that but that doesn´t stop us from speculating. As long as Poidimani keeps away from Portugal and any royal residence, I am fine.

[Count]

I agree with you Menarue for Poidimani.

Regina, Heads of European Royal Families ask not the question "who is the Head of the Royal House of Portugal" because it is understood that the answer is: Dom Duarte Pio...
For other Royal Families there is a doubt, ie Two Sicilies, at the moment we have Don Carlos (living in Madrid) and Carlo (living in Rome), here all books of nobility say that there are two people claiming the title of Head of the House...
Royals and nobles are divided into supporters of Carlos and supporters of Carlo, it depends from their personal contacts and relations with them.

[Marengo]

Exactly Count, I usually wonder why it is so important that he is born abroad to some. In the Germanic culture somebody can live abroad for many generations and still be considered German for example. That is how all the Germans from that settled in Eastern Europe over the centuries could return to Germany after WII (untill Chansellor Schreuder changed the law a few years ago). Likewise in my own country the 3rd or 4th generation immigrants are usually still called 'Turkish', ' Maroccan' etc. by many. Not that is a good thing of course, but it happens.

Likewise the way of reasoning that somebody has to be born in a country will make sure that many royal families will have no claimants at all, considering many were exiled.