Prince Nicholas (1872-1938), Grand Duchess Elena (1882-1957) and daughters

[snowflower]

Prince Nicholas ' photos :
1) Prince Andrew, Constantine I, Prince Nicholas
2) Prince Nicholas in a more advanced age
3) With one of his daughters

The last two photos are the tombs of Nicholas and Elena in the family cemetery at Tatoi. It always struck me how simple they were. Not to mention ALL the titles that are curved upon them in so many languages. (danish, greek, russian).

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

Thank you!
The first picture is a handsome group of gentlemen, for sure!!

Not reading any of the languages on the stones.... what do they say??

 

[Dierna23]

Some photos (gettyimages and Flickr)

1)a nice group photo of Nicholas , Andrew , Elena , Alice, OEM infront of their mother and Sophia and Margarita in front of Alice . I must say , Alice's daughters are very blonde! How comes that?Their parents seemed to be darker..

You're right. Although Alice's father was black-haired, her mother Victoria had ash blond hair, IMO, maybe this is a reason? Or perhaps it was that kind of blond which darkens later in life.
However, thank you for all the beautiful pictures of Elena, Nicholas and their daughters, snowflower. I really enjoy them and I believe, Marina resembled her father the most.

 

[snowflower]

Thank you!
The first picture is a handsome group of gentlemen, for sure!!

Not reading any of the languages on the stones.... what do they say??

In Nicholas's is written " Νικολαος, Πριγκηπας της Ελλαδος, Prinds til Danmark " ( Nicholas, Prince of Greece, Prince of Denmark)
Born in Athens 1972
Died in Athens 1938

In Elena's tomb it is written " Ελενη, Πριγκηπισσα Νικολαου της Ελλαδος,Великая Княгиня Yeлeиa Влади́мирoΒиa, Prinsesse til Danmark" ( Helen, Princess Nicholas of Greece, Grand Duchess Elena Vladimirovna of Russia, Princess of Denmark)
Born in Tsarkoe Selo 1982
Died in Psychiko 1955

There are also some quotes from the Bible but there are not whole and I can't translate them. God , the names in Greek, eadh title in its repsective language and lines from the Bible in ancient Greek. Talk about a linguistic mess ..... ( but in a good sense).

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

Thanks you for the translations.

 

[snowflower]

Here is another photo I came across yesterday. It shows Elena and OEM during the Balkan Wars at Red Cross, where they were doing charitable works. I had no idea Elena was involved in charities. I though that those who showed interest were QOlga and Alice.

Speaking about wars, does anyone know why Elena stayed in Greece during WWII? I realized it when I read that during the war with Italy , most memebers of the family moved back in Greece and were staying mainly at Prince George''s house since it was the most " bomb proof". When they left, Elena was not with them . First the women left with an airplane ( Marie Bonaparte, Aspasia Manos, Princess Alexandra , Princess Catherine, Crown Princess Frederika with baby Constantine and Sophie) and then the men ( Prince George, George II and Paul), and they settled to South Africa . Later they were joined by Princess Eugenie ( George and Marie's daughter) with her family . Why Elena stayed behind and didn't go with them?They can't have left her behind on purpose ( she surely could get on their nerves but not so much ....) or why didn't she go to live with Marina in Britain? She stayed in Athens and lived with Alice . They both moved to Prince George's house .

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

What a great picture! I also had no idea that Elena was much into the charity work.. although it was very much the "in thing" for Royal women..... and even her mother was involved in some charities (and it was rumored some corrupt charities as well..)..
Maybe she wanted the Greek people to look at her with the same respect as they did Queen Olga and Princess Alice... or maybe she wanted to teach Olga, Elizabeth, and Marina the importance of being a charitable Royal

 

[snowflower]

She definately wanted to be on top of Alice. When they both became brides in the Greek Royal family ( Alice a year after Elena) the attention was turned from Elena to Alice, because the family wanted to make her feel comfortable given that she was a Lutheran and she was deaf so it was more difficult for her to adjust. Elena didn't like this and when that year the whle family wnt to Russia she started complaining to relatives that she felt neglected and after all she should took precedence over Alice she Nicholas was the thrid son while Andrew the fourthand after all "she was born a Grand Duchess". Unfortunately Q Olga overheard her and answered "so was I, but I never made a fuss about it"'.

Later in life when Elena found difficulty in marrying Elisabeth and Marina she was furious and in 1931 ALL of Alice's daughters found a royal match ( not to mention that elisabeth and marina were nearly 30 while Sophie was still a teenager) she became more than furious. It's hard to imagine that these two women became later in life roomates during the war in order to look after each other because they were left without a husband and all their children were away. Life can have a weird sence of humour .....

 

[EmpressRouge]

Way to go, Queen Olga. Elena, born an Imperial Highness, definitely saw herself above Alice who was only a Serene Highness before marriage. However, her snobby attitude towards Alice did improve when Alice's sister became Crown Princess of Sweden and her son married the heiress to the British throne.

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

Awesome story! Good for Queen Olga!
At least in the end, Elena came to appreciate Princess Alice.... I love irony!

 

[snowflower]

Well, in the sweet and "saint like"in behaviour Queen Olga felt the need to answer back, Elena must have been complaining a lot.
I found why Elena didn't left Greece during WWII.Apparently , George VI said he would accept all the Greek Royals in Britain except Princess Nicholas. The reason ? Not only Marina would "occasionaly mention" that her children are more royal than his but Elena supposedly made comment. During Prince Edward's baptism , Elena said that her grandson was far the most royal in the family. After all Queen Mary was a morganatic daughter , while the Duchess of York wasn't even remotely royal, a total commoner. In Russia. where things were done the " proper way", Elisabeth and Margaret wouldn't even be given the title of princesses , let alone be so close to the throne. A " kind person" imformed the Queen and the Duchess about this comments. Well , I think someone messed with the wrong women....

 

[snowflower]

By the way . I know that Nicholas was a talented painter . Has anyone seen any of his paintings?

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Well, in the sweet and "saint like"in behaviour Queen Olga felt the need to answer back, Elena must have been complaining a lot.
I found why Elena didn't left Greece during WWII.Apparently , George VI said he would accept all the Greek Royals in Britain except Princess Nicholas. The reason ? Not only Marina would "occasionaly mention" that her children are more royal than his but Elena supposedly made comment. During Prince Edward's baptism , Elena said that her grandson was far the most royal in the family. After all Queen Mary was a morganatic daughter , while the Duchess of York wasn't even remotely royal, a total commoner. In Russia. where things were done the " proper way", Elisabeth and Margaret wouldn't even be given the title of princesses , let alone be so close to the throne. A " kind person" imformed the Queen and the Duchess about this comments. Well , I think someone messed with the wrong women....

And I think this is why she and Princess Andrew did not get along that well. Alice was not as snobbish and I think Princess Nicholas looked down her nose at all royals, save herself.

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

Elena is fascinating.... I love all the stories!!

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

Well, there are two sides to a coin and different perspectives to analyze facts in all walks of life including royalty.
Elena had a most elegant appearance and superior pedigree. She had reasons to be arrogant [although one may argue that she was so royal that she did not need to be arrogant]. Her arrogance toward her peers, however, was contrasted by her friendliness with many important "commoners" of her time, in Greece, where she spent all of her later life. In fact, she was very popular among the sensitive Greek people.
How, then, can these two "versions" of her personality/behavior be reconciled?
The clue may lie with the fact that Elena and Frederika did well overall despite their strong personalities and huge age difference (exactly 35 years). Thus, that they respected each other's superior pedigree and acknowledged each other's standing as being not above, but at par with, their royal station - this is the 'key" here.

Now, how do the above relate to the issue of British royals and the "friction" with "old-school" personages like Elena and Frederika?

After Victoria raised Britain to a huge Empire with Territories all over the world, the royal family gained so much clout and superiority of standing, that the British Kings would not attend funerals or weddings abroad etc. However, from the time of George V onward, and due to his marriage to a morganatic child as well as the unequal marriages of all but one prince thereafter (ie George to Marina), the British royal family's attitude and claim to superiority was no more justified in dynastic terms and inevitably drew sarcastic comments.
One must bear also in mind that, in continental Europe, up until [or even after] the end of WWII, a Royal Prince was not allowed or expected to marry a non-HRH countess, baroness, marchioness, duchess, princess, or even an HSH-princess, for such marriages were, rightly or wrongly, considered morganatic or unequal and often, this attitude was backed by the Law and Constitutions of various countries (eg Sweden).
It was on this substrate that Elena and later Marina made infamous bitter comments. Who would forget princess Marina's characterization of Alice, duchess of Gloucester and the queen mother as "these Scottish little girls".

 

[Warren]

One must bear in mind that in Continental Europe, up until [or even after] the end of WWII, a Royal Prince was not allowed or expected to marry a non-HRH countess, baroness, marchioness, duchess, princess, or even an HSH-princess, for such marriages were traditionally, rightly or wrongly, considered, and treated as morganatic or unequal. Often times, this attitude was backed by the Law and Constitutions of various countries.

Well, not quite. The Gotha has rigid rules, but the principle of 'equal marriage' or Ebenbürtigkeit among the ruling (and former ruling, ie Mediatised) Houses was adhered to.
For example:

Kaiser Wilhelm II married an HH Princess of a non-reigning Ducal House (Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg); his son Crown Prince Wilhelm and Christian X of Denmark both married HH Duchesses while Queen Wilhelmina married an HH Duke (all three of Mecklenburg-Schwerin); Queen Juliana went even lower down the scale with her husband Bernhard, whose father was a Count of Lippe-Biesterfeld until the family rose to HSH Princely rank as late as 1905.

Tsars Alexander II and Nicholas II married HGDH Princesses (Hesse and by Rhine); King Alfonso XIII and King Gustaf VI Adolf married former HSH Princesses of Battenberg (morganaut princesses, just like Queen Mary), Kings Pedro V and Manoel of Portugal married HSH Princesses of Hohenzollern (-Sigmaringen); Gustaf V of Sweden married an HGDH Princess (Baden); Crown Prince Rupprecht of Bavaria married an HGDH Princess (Luxembourg); Christian IX married an HH Princess of Hesse-Cassel (the daughter of a Landgrave who was later to be deposed by the Prussians); Willem III of the Netherlands married an HSH Princess of insignificant Waldeck-Pyrmont as did Wilhelm II of Württemberg, who married secondly an HSH Princess of even tinier Schaumburg-Lippe; Duke Albrecht of Bavaria, Head of the Wittelsbachs and father of the current Head, Duke Franz, married twice, to Countesses; and of course the Archduke Otto, Crown Prince of Hungary and Head of the Imperial House of Habsburg, married the late HH Princess Regina of Saxe-Meiningen, the daughter of a minor Saxon Duke.

Of course there were plenty of Royal to Royal and Imperial mariages but my point is that marriages to HSHs, HHs, and HGDHs were certainly not uncommon amongst the reigning monarchs, from the Queen of England to the German Kaiser to the Tsar of all the Russias.

 

[maria-olivia]

It is Elisabeth's great grandson who died unfortunately in an autocrash.

 

[Furienna]

King Alfonso XIII and King Gustaf VI Adolf married former HSH Princesses of Battenberg (morganaut princesses, just like Queen Mary).

Yes, that's true. Louise Mountbatten was considered so inferior to crown prince Gustaf Adolf, that there actually had to be an investigation as to whether she was royal or not. But in the end, she was considered royal enough, and they could get married, and Louise eventually became queen of Sweden. Her mother-in-law, Victoria of Baden, was a totally different matter though, as even though the house of Baden maybe never was that powerful, her maternal grandfather was emperor of Germany, which she was very proud of. Victoria actually went down in history as our most arrogant queen ever and one of our least popular queens ever.

 

[EmpressRouge]

Yes, that's true. Louise Mountbatten was considered so inferior to crown prince Gustaf Adolf, that there actually had to be an investigation as to whether she was royal or not. But in the end, she was considered royal enough, and they could get married, and Louise eventually became queen of Sweden. Her mother-in-law, Victoria of Baden, was a totally different matter though, as even though the house of Baden maybe never was that powerful, her maternal grandfather was emperor of Germany, which she was very proud of. Victoria actually went down in history as our most arrogant queen ever and one of our least popular queens ever.

By the time Louise married in 1923, her family had given up their princely titles and she was simple Lady Louise Mountbatten. I believe I read that George V pulled some strings so Louise was could be considered a member of the British royal family (since the whole family lived and had naval careers there) thus worth to marry Gustaf Adolf. It seems ironic that with all the fuss over his second wife's "royalness," GA was so adamant that his children married royals and deprived his younger sons of their titles when they married commoners.

 

[Furienna]

Yes, two of his sons lost their place in the sucession, and prince Bertil wasn't allowed to marry Lilian Craig Davis until 1976 (even though they had lived together since the 1940s, double standards much?) His cousin Carl and his nephew Lennart also lost their places in the succession, as they married non-royal women. I think most of this (if not all of it) happened already during Gustav V:s time though, so Gustav VI Adolf can't really be blamed for it. The laws were also very strict about this for the longest time. And I've even read, that our present king, Carl XVI Gustaf, wasn't really sure whether ot not he would be allowed to marry Silvia, and that was as recent as the 1970s.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Being royal accounts for much of the "old school" attitude exhibited by Elena and Frederika towards others but that sword cuts both ways. Some of the more "noble" acting royals came from lesser pedigrees and were as beloved by their countrymen as those with bluer blood. Although I admire royalty, they are no better than me and I greatly admire those royals who treated all people with respect, no matter their origin.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

Well, not quite. The Gotha has rigid rules, but the principle of 'equal marriage' or Ebenbürtigkeit among the ruling (and former ruling, ie Mediatised) Houses was adhered to.

I am not by any means that well versed on the matter. However, I understand that some of the houses you quote, albeit neither major nor important were nonetheless mediatized. I believe, and please correct me here, that these minor houses, sometimes not even ducal but just comital, were rulers of sorts who, in turn, were under the rule of some major area sovereign. At some point, the Gotha treated these minor but mediatized houses, particularly if they were Germanic, as being of greater significance and importance, than even princely houses that were not ruling ones.
For example, prince Bernhard was coming from a minor house, but a mediatized one and this was the reason that his standing was deemed acceptable for the groom of the future queen of the Netherlands.
Anyway, it would be very interesting to learn from you how many of the minor houses you quote above were mediatized, which, by Gotha standards, meant that their members were considered to be of equal or almost equal standing to that of members of sovereign states and could thus acceptable as their consorts.

 

[Warren]

Prior to the Napoleonic Wars the Holy Roman Empire consisted of hundreds of independent states with the ruling Electors, Dukes, Landgraves, Palatines, Princes, Counts etc holding allegiance directly to the Emperor. With the Confederation of the Rhine (1806) and Congress of Vienna (1815) the number of sovereign states and sovereign rulers was vastly reduced. What we know as Germany ended up with less than 30 ruling Houses. The "losers" were subsumed into larger states (eg the formerly sovereign Principality of Fürstenberg was incorporated into the Kingdom of Württemberg). To compensate for the loss of sovereignity the Princely House of Fürstenberg (to use one example) was made 'equal' to the remaining ruling families in regard to certain privileges including marriage, with the Prince owing allegiance to the Emperor through the King of Württemberg. Thus the term 'mediatised' from media or middle.

Not all families thus mediatised had territores they formerly ruled. The mediatised Thurn und Taxis, for example, were never a Ruling Family, but nonetheless were rich, powerful and influential enough to ensure they weren't left out.

None of the Houses I mentioned in my post were Mediatised. The Battenbergs were a morganatic branch of the Grand Ducal Hesse-Darmstadts; Queen Mary's family, the Tecks, were a morganatic branch of the Royal House of Württemberg and Albrecht Duke of Bavaria married non-mediatised countesses. The rest were reigning up until at least 1918 except for Hesse-Cassel which was annexed by Prussia in 1866 and S-H-S-A which was never reigning as such.

The Lippe-Biesterfeld family achieved sovereign status on the extinction of the Lippe-Detmold line in 1905. Members of the family, formerly a cadet branch as Counts and Countesses of Lippe-Biesterfeld, then assumed the title of Princes of Lippe with the qualification of Serene Highness. An uncle of Prince Bernhard [of the Netherlands] became the last sovereign Prince of Lippe as Leopold IV and reigned from 1905 to 12 November 1918.

Prince Bernhard's father had married a Baron's daughter in 1909 when she was created a Countess. In 1916 Bernhard and his brother, up until then considered somewhat 'lesser' due to their mother, were made Princes of Lippe-Biesterfeld with the qualification of Serene Highness.

Here's a Map of the Holy Roman Empire in 1789. Click on the map to show the number of small and patchwork states (some tiny territories haven't been included).

The map below is a cropped part of a much larger image showing some of the states and micro-states which made up the HRE following the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

Magnificent account! Thank you
The conclusion, therefore, is that none of them, British and Continental European royalty alike were/are, at least de facto (and often de jure), as royal as we were told or as we used to think. Additionally, one sees the corruption involved and the relaxed, varied and "ad hoc" criteria employed by Gotha at different times, for different peope or at the same time for different people!!
And this, I guess, may explain the infamous end of the Almanac of Gotha and the Gotha altogether.
Please give us further comments on the matter.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Warren,

Thanks for the explanation. Those maps are very detailed.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

What wonderful pictures of Princess Nicholas!
She passed her stunning dark looks on to her daughters, for sure!!
Are there any of Princess Nicholas and her mother, Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna??

Actually, it goes to beyond beauty! Here we are talking sheer elegance, absolute chic. Thence, the "infamous" snobbery of all three of them

 

[EmpressRouge]

A young Elena and her mother are both in the picture taken at Nicholas II's coronation in 1896. In the big group photo, they are standing in the back, fourth and fifth from the left. In the smaller group, they are the two figures standing.
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...d-other-state-occasions-17284.html#post777295

 

[snowflower]

Elena with her mother and her family

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Wow, wonderful photographs. Just look at those wonderful robes, jewelery and tiaras. Such pomp and splendor the likes of which the world will probably never see again, even in the United Kingdom.

 

[snowflower]

Wow, wonderful photographs. Just look at those wonderful robes, jewelery and tiaras. Such pomp and splendor the likes of which the world will probably never see again, even in the United Kingdom.

Well some hungry Russians also noticed all these jewels and splendor and i do think this made them react a rather unexpected way. After that, I dont think that any royal family deared or will dear repeat this splendor. So are right , these days are gone.
By the way , all that glamour was the reason that Nicholas tried to provide to his wife a matching environment here in Greece because he falt guilty he had taken away Elena from all of that. Their Palace, although small was very modern compared to all the other royal residences. It even had luxuries such as " central heating, hot and cold water, and several bathrooms each fitted with heated towel-rails" ( even royals didn't have hot water then at Greece ) they threw many parties, they travelled many times in Russia and the dresses OEM wore were much most beautifull and expensive with all these embroideries and laces they had that those of their cousins who lived also in greece ( Sophia used more plain and practical dresses for her girls, the same style she used to wear when in Germany and Alice couldn't afford all this cost for four girls).