King Constantine I (1868-1923) and Sophie of Prussia (1870-1932)

[snowflower]

She once proposed to her husband to give to certain elite families nobility titles, so that a local aristocracy could be created ( and she could have someone to keep her company). This proposition met many protests from the Greeks and the idea was abandoned.

[Vasillisos Markos]

Strange that the Greeks wanted a monarchy but not nobility. It may have anchored the throne by creating nobles out of natives as a way to support the royal family during the periods of upheaval

[snowflower]

Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos

Strange that the Greeks wanted a monarchy but not nobility. It may have anchored the throne by creating nobles out of natives as a way to support the royal family during the periods of upheaval

It is true . not ot mention that in this way a king or Queen might be able to marry a Greek. But what they had to gain from it? The only this that would happen would be dividing the Greek nation in an unjustied way to aristoctrats and commoners. In the rest of Europe it was different, the dukes, earls, etc held their titles due to their ancenstral right ( and when i mean ancestral, remember we re talking about medieval times in many cases), so it was an stablished thing . Not to mention it would be a little ridiculous for the rest of the Monarchies to see Greece create in the 20th century nobles out of nowhere.

[CarolinaLandgrave]

Great point, Vassillisos Markos. It never occurred to me that Greece did not have a landed nobility. Forover 1000 years most monarchies have rested upon a the base (or been toppled over by) a strong nobility.

[snowflower]

Originally Posted by CarolinaLandgrave

Great point, Vassillisos Markos. It never occurred to me that Greece did not have a landed nobility. Forover 1000 years most monarchies have rested upon a the base (or been toppled over by) a strong nobility.

Well in Greece there was never a nobility not at least in the form it was in the other countries.There were aristocrats in Ancient Greece but they were more of warriors of nobility. When Greece became part of the Byzantine Empire the same. There were some prominent and high regarded families but the held titles more of a" military nobility" (ptwtospatharios etc.) When the Ottoman Empire was established some Fanariots families were regarded as noble and they were made princes and rulers but not of Greeece, of Wallachia for example. There were also those in the Ionian island who held nobility titles but these titles were Venetian , neither greek nor turkish. Oh and there was the Ypsilantis family but I think that those were made princes by the Czar ( not sure about it). Here there was never the evolution that occured in the other countries ( from feudal landlords to nobility).

[CarolinaLandgrave]

Considering the lengthy history of the Greece, that is totally amazing to me. Thank you, again, for all the information.

[snowflower]

Originally Posted by Odette

There was a paragraph in a book I read recently about the time Queen Sofia complained to her father in law King George about her husband, CP Constantine. She wanted to know how to handle his interest in a mistress he had. King George told her to go ask her mother in law who knew how to handle a similar situation.
This is a glaring example of the difference in temperament between the two Queens.

Does this mean that K George had mistresses? It's the first time I ve heard it. It always seemed to me that he really loved his wife and that they were quite happy together ( after all they kept having children until later in life. I don't think this occurs to loveless marriages).

[snowflower]

Sophie's and Constantine's wedding was celebrated with much regality and pomp. He was the first member of the Greek Royal Family to ever get married in Greece. However the morning of the wedding day, Sophie was very stressed and the reason? No one could find her veil! It was placed on the wrong box, not together with the rest of the bridal acessories and eveyrone thought it was forgotted in Germany! They realised it when the night before the wedding they prepared Sophie's attire. Vicky was very upset not only because it was such a pity ( it took four months and 200 workers to make it) but because Sophie couldn't possibly be married without a veil! Fortunately, a lady in waiting had brought with her several metres of tuille . When the Empress learned in she gave two orders. First, no one was to know that the veil was gone, nor the Greeks royals neither any other Greek, because she was afraid that the over superstitious Greeks would consider it a bad omen . Second, everyone was to stay up that night and make a new veil for the Princess in utmost secresy. It had to be finished in time and there was no room for mistakes in the cutting and sewing, because they didn't have enough tuille in something went wrong. So they did, the ladies finished the veil in time and Sophie said that she was pleased after all, because she never liked the idea of wearing a lace veil in the first place. I wonder if those poor Prussian ladies in waiting who stayed up all night shared her opinion........ Finally, the veil was found during the wedding service.
She later was conviced by her mother to be at least photographed with the lace veil.

[CarolinaLandgrave]

She doesn't look like a happy bride at all

[snowflower]

Perhaps the fact that she stayed up half the night and was early awaked in order to be prepared in time, dressed and coiffed because the wedding was at 9 in the morning and then she had the official pictures taken and she knew that there was a banquet organised for the evening has to do something with it. But why did they sceduled the wedding so early? All the royal ladies should have to wake up at the dawn to get ready on time.....
By the way her wedding dress seems a little odd to me . No jewelery, and the skirt is quite short( you can see her shoes) and the train doens't seem to match the dress. .Plus there are almost no sleeves, while you can't see an inch form her neck. I thought that dresses of the time were the exact opposite, with decolletage and covering sleeves ( well , more covering than that).

[CarolinaLandgrave]

I agree, her dress isn't very regal..... I mean, for a daughter of a German Emperor and granddaughter of the Queen of England..... - and a future Queen of Greece...... her dress is very plain and very odd.
Is the plainness due to some tradition of the Orthodox Church (as I am Episcopalian and not familiar with Orthodox traditions)??

Why in Heaven's name, reckon, did they want to have the wedding so early in the morning?

[snowflower]

No, the Orthodox Church doesn't demand plain weddinq dresses , it is not a tradition. Besides, weren't the Russian and Roumanian royals also Orthodox? and I don't think that anyone could ever accuse them of being plainly dressed......
I found out why the wedding was so early . It is because Sophie was Protestant at the time. Since there was no civil marriage in Greece back then, the only wedding to get their marriage valid was to perform two weddings, one Orthodox and one Lutheran. Because a wedding breakfast was organized about 11 in the morning, there was a suggestion to postpone the Lutheran ceremony until the next day and have the Orthodox wedding at 10 am. But then, the Kaiser became furious, telling that he demanded his sister to be properly married before sleeping in the same bed with Constantine ( it seems that an actual religious Orthodox wedding wasn't a proper enough blessing for him).So, they the decided the night before to have the Orthodox marriage early in morning, then the immediate family would rush to Tatoi, where they wereto be married in a private ceremony by King George's Lutheran priest (he never became Orthodox). Then, they would rush back to Athens, for the wedding breakfast and the official photos.
However, when everyone from the family was ready the next day at 9 am, no one of the guests was ready, since they didn't have the time to inform themabout the change in plans. So here's what happened: the wedding took actually place around 11 am ,then they got married in the Palace by a Lutheran priest and then they held the reception. So much of a fuss.... No wonder at the wedding photo Sophie looks far than happy.

[Marengo]

Ah, dear cousin Willy, always making drama's. I remember reading that Queen Emma did try her best to prevent him from attending the wedding of Queen Wilhelmina of The Netherlands in 1901, because according to Emma 'On every wedding, Wilhelm wants to be the bride' .

Now, when Sophie did convert Wilhelm II was quite upset, refusing to see his sister for years, not allowing her inside Germany even. And I believe he also accused her of endangering the health of the unborn baby of Kaiserin Auguste Viktoria, as the empress was quite upset about the prospect of his sister-in-law going to hell.

[CarolinaLandgrave]

Well no wonder poor Sophie looked all out of sorts..... but of course, having a brother like the Kaiser would probably do that to most of us

[Vasillisos Markos]

Originally Posted by Marengo

Ah, dear cousin Willy, always making drama's. I remember reading that Queen Emma did try her best to prevent him from attending the wedding of Queen Wilhelmina of The Netherlands in 1901, because according to Emma 'On every wedding, Wilhelm wants to be the bride' .

Now, when Sophie did convert Wilhelm II was quite upset, refusing to see his sister for years, not allowing her inside Germany even. And I believe he also accused her of endangering the health of the unborn baby of Kaiserin Auguste Viktoria, as the empress was quite upset about the prospect of his sister-in-law going to hell.

Yes, Willy was a bully and cruel to everyone who crossed his path. He did kick up quite a fuss about his sister being married in the orthodox faith but curiously, when it came to "dynastic alliances" such as Alexandra of Hesse marrying Tsarevich Nicholas of Russia, he had no objections! I guess he did not think Sophie's marriage was much of a dynastic match but then, maybe he was afraid of Russia but not afraid of Greece. Therefore, he favored a German princess marrying the heir to the Russian Throne. Pity that he then helped initiate the war which brought them both down.

[snowflower]

The Kaiser never really had an easy relationship with his Greek in laws. King George never hided with preference over Britain and Russia and although he did had an alliance with Germany in order to keep stability ,but he made sure it would never be a warm one. The official line was that he, as King of the Hellenes, was sovereign over a country who was traditionally attached to GBritain and that a turn to Germany would have risk his throne and his interests. The unofficial line was that, on top of the official one, he remained in his heart a Dane prince first and foremost and he had absolutely no love lost to Prussia. Of course as a reigning king , he didn't have the luxury to express his dislike the same way his sisters did, but he would always keep Willy on a considerable distance, although not too much because that might hurt his interests.One thing that always made the Kaiser furious was that when a reform on the Greek army was proposed, Constantine ( who greatly admired his brother in law) would propose to bring Prussian officers to teach. George would listen silently, pretending he agreed, but he would give no promise and after a month or so, the Kaiser would learn from the newspapers that French officers were sent to Greece in order to reform the Greek Army....
When it comes to Sophie, she was not required neither by the Orthodox Church nor by the Hellenic Constitution to be Orthodox. She just had to raise her children Orthodox. But later on she decided to convert. The Kaiser might not have protested, but then the Kaiserin got envolved. She never liked Orthodoxy, she considered the ritual pompous and nearly paganistic ( she often commented how disgusted she was with Alexandra and Ella who became Russian Orthodox and left behind their reasonal Protestand faith). That's why she summoned Sophie to tell her that she was stupid and that since she was not required to convert she had better stay Lutheran. Besides she was , as a Lutheran from Prussia, to be held responsible for her faith and her soul in front of the Kaiser and she didn't have the right to betray him. Sophie's retort was that now she was not a Prussian Princess, she was first the Greek Crownprincess and she would do the best for her family and for her future in Greece and that the last person in the world who deserved the title of a spiritual leader was probably her brother. The Kaiserin got awfully upset and they had a huge fight . The rest is history I guess.

[CarolinaLandgrave]

One has to give Sophie credit for standing up for herself... must be her mother and grandmother showing up!
Kaiserin Augusta was somewhat of a prude, from what I can gather. She needed to be put in her place.

[snowflower]

Augusta Viktoria indeed had no right to get envolved on such matters. But the truth is that although Sophie was married, she and her husband continued to consider her as their subject. So ,according to the Kaiser ,if Sophie was told that she should not convert by Dona ( his wife) , then she had to comply. Unfortunately, Sophie was not supported by Constantine in most of her fights with her brother, because Constantine admired much Villy as a military man ( that I get it) and as a man in general (that i really don't get it). So , most of the time and( since he was of course not the one personally insulted), he would not stand up for Sophie(his wife) , because he didn't want to upset his dear brother in law

[CarolinaLandgrave]

But Sophie wasn't the Kaiser's subject after her marriage, she was King George's - correct??
But of course... we are dealing with the Kaiser (who's mind and rationale no one will ever fully understand).
I agree... I don't understand Constantine's logic on viewing Wilhelm as the epitome' of manhood or (for me) of military brilliance... I don't think he was very good at either.

[EmpressRouge]

I remember Olga was not very pleased with Constantine's choice of bride initially because she was hoping he would marry an Orthodox like herself and his subjects. I bet Olga was delighted when Sophie chose to convert.