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  #21  
Old 08-11-2022, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
You're right in that assumption. The von Merenbergs were not Nassau dynasts and the title was given to Natalia and her agnatic descendants in 1868.
Still Georg Nikolaus von Merenberg tried to have his claim to the Luxemburg throne recognised over that of the daughters of Grand Duke William IV. There were precedents for morganatic heirs to royal houses on the brink of extinction being "readmitted" to the dynasty as happened in Baden in 1817. There were also rulings like that of the Diet of Lippe in 1897 (recognised by the Reichsgericht in 1905) who retroactively ruled that marriages between a dynast and ladies of the lower nobility were in accordance with both House law and family practice leading to one of their descendants becoming the reigning Prince of Lippe.
That’s true, but the current male line descendant will be the last agnate of that morganatic branch of the family.
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  #22  
Old 08-13-2022, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by SirGyamfi1 View Post
That’s true, but the current male line descendant will be the last agnate of that morganatic branch of the family.
Yes with Clotilde von Nassau, known as Gräfin von Merenberg, the famous dynasty will finally become extinct in legal male agnatic descendants.

The last legal and dynastic male agnatic Orange-Nassau descendant was Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau (1880-1962).

The last legal and dynastic male agnatic Nassau descendant was Grand-Duchess Charlotte of Luxembourg, Duchess of Nassau (1896-1985).
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  #23  
Old 08-14-2022, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Yes with Clotilde von Nassau, known as Gräfin von Merenberg, the famous dynasty will finally become extinct in legal male agnatic descendants.
von Merenberg was the official last name. The morganatic branch never bore the name von Nassau.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/g_morganat.htm

Since marriage the legal name of Clotilde, and the name by which she is known, is that of ther husband.
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  #24  
Old 08-14-2022, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
von Merenberg was the official last name. The morganatic branch never bore the name von Nassau.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/g_morganat.htm

Since marriage the legal name of Clotilde, and the name by which she is known, is that of ther husband.
In agnatic line Clotilde is 100% a Nassau. She is not known as such, but she nevertheless is and remains a Nassau. When Grand-Duke Wilhelm had no sons, the Luxembourgian Government was so unsure about the Nassau claim of the Von Merenbergs that in 1907 the Parliament approved the Nassauische Hausgesetz which ensured that the succesion would continue via the daughters of Grand-Duke Wilhelm IV.

To have the Merenbergs to retreat from their courtcase in Wiesbaden against the Luxembourgian Government, they offered an annual rent of 40.000 Golden Marks.

When Georg Nikolaus Graf von Merenberg died in 1948, the Luxembourgers had given him 1.600.000 Golden Marks in rents for his abstinence from a Nassau claim.

Nikolaus Wilhelm Prinz zu Nassau
x Natalya Alexandrovna Pushkina created Gräfin von Merenberg
|
Georg Nikolaus Graf von Merenberg
x Olga Alexandrovna Princess Juryevskaya (daughter of Tsar Alexander II of Russia)
|
Georg Graf von Merenberg
x Elisabeth-Anne Müller-Uri
|
Clotilde Gräfin von Merenberg

With Clothilde not only the last male agnate in the Nassau dynasty will end. Also the noble family Von Merenberg will end. But one of her sons (for an example Gregor von Rintelen, married to Jane Gräfin zu Bentheim-Thecklenburg-Rheda) can add his mother's surname if he wishes so as a Genanntname: "Gregor von Rintelen genannt von Merenberg". That is what happens regularly when a last female dies, then one of the sons adapts the surname to continue the old name.
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  #25  
Old 08-14-2022, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
In agnatic line Clotilde is 100% a Nassau. She is not known as such, but she nevertheless is and remains a Nassau. When Grand-Duke Wilhelm had no sons, the Luxbourgian Government was so unsure about the Nassau claim of the Von Merenbergs that in 1907 the Parliament approved the Nassauische Hausgesetz which ensured that the succesion would continue via the daughters of Grand-Duke Wilhelm IV.

To have the Merenbergs to retreat from their courtcase in Wiesbaden against the Luxembourgian Government, they offered an annual rent of 40.000 Golden Marks.

When Georg Nikolaus Graf von Merenberg died in 1948, the Luxembourgers had given him 1.600.000 Golden Marks in rents for his abstinence from a Nassau claim.

Nikolaus Wilhelm Prinz zu Nassau
x Natalya Alexandrovna Pushkina created Gräfin von Merenberg
|
Georg Nikolaus Graf von Merenberg
x Olga Alexandrovna Princess Juryevskaya (daughter of Tsar Alexander II of Russia)
|
Georg Graf von Merenberg
x Elisabeth-Anne Müller-Uri
|
Clotilde Gräfin von Merenberg

With Clothilde not only the last male agnate in the Nassau dynasty will end. Also the noble family Von Merenberg will end. But one of her sons (for an example Gregor von Rintelen, married to Jane Gräfin zu Bentheim-Thecklenburg-Rheda) can add his mother's surname if he wishes so as a Genanntname: "Gregor von Rintelen genannt von Merenberg". That is what happens regularly when a last female dies, then one of the sons adapts the surname to continue the old name.
I wonder the relations between this branch and the ruling branch in Luxembourg because whenever there are pictures of the ruling branch, the Merenbergs don’t seem to be part of it.
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  #26  
Old 08-14-2022, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
von Merenberg was the official last name. The morganatic branch never bore the name von Nassau.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/g_morganat.htm

Since marriage the legal name of Clotilde, and the name by which she is known, is that of ther husband.
She’s a senior but morganatic descendant of the Nassau dynasty.
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  #27  
Old 08-14-2022, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
In agnatic line Clotilde is 100% a Nassau. She is not known as such, but she nevertheless is and remains a Nassau. When Grand-Duke Wilhelm had no sons, the Luxbourgian Government was so unsure about the Nassau claim of the Von Merenbergs that in 1907 the Parliament approved the Nassauische Hausgesetz which ensured that the succesion would continue via the daughters of Grand-Duke Wilhelm IV.

To have the Merenbergs to retreat from their courtcase in Wiesbaden against the Luxembourgian Government, they offered an annual rent of 40.000 Golden Marks.

When Georg Nikolaus Graf von Merenberg died in 1948, the Luxembourgers had given him 1.600.000 Golden Marks in rents for his abstinence from a Nassau claim.

Nikolaus Wilhelm Prinz zu Nassau
x Natalya Alexandrovna Pushkina created Gräfin von Merenberg
|
Georg Nikolaus Graf von Merenberg
x Olga Alexandrovna Princess Juryevskaya (daughter of Tsar Alexander II of Russia)
|
Georg Graf von Merenberg
x Elisabeth-Anne Müller-Uri
|
Clotilde Gräfin von Merenberg

With Clothilde not only the last male agnate in the Nassau dynasty will end. Also the noble family Von Merenberg will end. But one of her sons (for an example Gregor von Rintelen, married to Jane Gräfin zu Bentheim-Thecklenburg-Rheda) can add his mother's surname if he wishes so as a Genanntname: "Gregor von Rintelen genannt von Merenberg". That is what happens regularly when a last female dies, then one of the sons adapts the surname to continue the old name.
The dowager Duchess of Westminster is also a descendant of Prince Nikolaus Wilhelm and Natalya Pushkina.
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  #28  
Old 08-14-2022, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
In agnatic line Clotilde is 100% a Nassau. She is not known as such, but she nevertheless is and remains a Nassau.
I see, what you meant was that she is a Nassau in the same fashion that, say, Princess Anunciata of Liechtenstein is a Nassau, not suggesting that she has borne or used the name. I thought it appropriate to clarify as Clotilde is incorrectly named in some articles on English Wikipedia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
With Clothilde not only the last male agnate in the Nassau dynasty will end.
I wouldn't say that she is an agnate in the Nassau dynasty as she is female (edit: it seems "agnate" is indeed employed in some contexts to describe a patrilineally related female; apologies to Duc), has never borne the Nassau name, and is from a branch of the family which was never recognized as dynastic in spite of Count Georg's perseverance. But she is probably the last legal male-line descendant of the Nassau dynasty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirGyamfi1 View Post
She’s a senior but morganatic descendant of the Nassau dynasty.
The Merenbergs descended from a younger half-brother of Grand Duke Adolph of Luxembourg, the ancestor of the present-day Nassaus.
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  #29  
Old 08-14-2022, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I see, what you meant was that she is a Nassau in the same fashion that, say, Princess Anunciata of Liechtenstein is a Nassau, not suggesting that she has borne or used the name. I thought it appropriate to clarify as Clotilde is incorrectly named in some articles on English Wikipedia.
No, as it is clear Duc_et_Pair is talking about an uninterrupted male-line descendance (within marriage) and she herself is a male-line descendant of the Nassau family.

Given that Anunciata of Liechtenstein is a male-line descendant of the von und zu Liechtensteins and does not exclusively descent from the male line (but her lineage includes 2 females (her mother and her great-grandmother), she is not an agnate of the Nassaus and the situations are not comparable at all.

Quote:
I wouldn't say that she is an agnate in the Nassau dynasty as she is female, has never borne the Nassau name, and is from a branch of the family which was never recognized as dynastic in spite of Count Georg's perseverance. But she is probably the last legal male-line descendant of the Nassau dynasty.

The Merenbergs descended from a younger half-brother of Grand Duke Adolph of Luxembourg, the ancestor of the present-day Nassaus.
That she herself is female is irrelevant. Agnates can be both male or female but only males can pass on the 'family membership' in this sense. As she herself is female, any children she or other females in the family had were not 'Nassaus' from this perspective - but she herself is.

Quote:
agnate, agnation In Roman law, agnati were a group of males and females who were related through a common ancestor, and thus came under a single family authority. The modern use in social anthropology relates to patrilineal (or male) descent, but the element of male authority has been lost. An agnate is thus a blood relative in the patrilineal (or male) line. Agnation refers to a kinship system in which relationship is traced exclusively through the male line. In current anthropological usage the term patrilineal is preferred.
Source: Encyclopedia.com
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  #30  
Old 08-14-2022, 09:23 PM
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If you carefully read both of our posts, it is clear that I was responding to the statement "Clotilde von Nassau, known as Gräfin von Merenberg" and clarifying for other readers that she has never been named "von Nassau", legally or otherwise.

So their situations are indeed comparable in regard to the topic of my original reply: Neither carry, or have ever carried, the name "von Nassau" despite being descendants of the family.

To be honest, I am confused about which part of my post gave the impression that I was referring to the gender of their Nassau ancestors. I am aware that Anunciata is a Nassau on her mother's side and not her father's - if the latter, under the rules currently in force she would actually bear the name of Nassau regardless of dynasticity or legitimacy.


Quote:
agnate, agnation In Roman law, agnati were a group of males and females who were related through a common ancestor, and thus came under a single family authority. The modern use in social anthropology relates to patrilineal (or male) descent, but the element of male authority has been lost. An agnate is thus a blood relative in the patrilineal (or male) line. Agnation refers to a kinship system in which relationship is traced exclusively through the male line. In current anthropological usage the term patrilineal is preferred.

Source: Encyclopedia.com
Interesting, I stand corrected and apologize to Duc_et_Pair. However, many texts such as the original Nassau family pact of 1783 (which is available online) do use "agnate" in a stricter sense of males (and only those with dynastic rights, in the language of the pact) who are related patrilineally.
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  #31  
Old 08-14-2022, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
An interview in German with the last patrinial descendant of the Nassau family, Countess Clothilde of Nassau-Merenberg:



And a Wikipedia article with some information:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counte...ssau-Merenberg
On the YouTube film clip it said in Dutch "De afstammelingen van Willem van Oranje" in English translated is "The descendants of William of Orange"
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  #32  
Old 08-14-2022, 10:32 PM
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That must the article which I was remembering when I said that she had been incorrectly called Nassau in articles. (In the interview, she was more correctly called Countess of Merenberg.)

Interestingly, there are extramarital (male-line, as far as I know) descendants who do bear the name, unlike the former von Merenbergs who never did. But as Duc hinted earlier, those Nassaus probably are not legally recognized descendants.
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  #33  
Old 08-15-2022, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ronald biver View Post
On the YouTube film clip it said in Dutch "De afstammelingen van Willem van Oranje" in English translated is "The descendants of William of Orange"

I doubt Clotilde von Rintelen, Gräfin von Merenberg is a male-line descendant from Willem I von Nassau, Prince d'Orange. His legal male descandance ended in 1702 with the death of Willem III of Nassau, Prince of Orange (King of England, Scotland and Ireland and Stadtholder of the United Provinces).

The paternal Nassau line of Willem I von Nassau, Prince d'Orange, continued via his eldest brother Johann VI von Nassau, with Queen Wilhelmina as the last agnate in direct patrilineal descendance from this eldest brother of Prince Willem I.
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  #34  
Old 08-15-2022, 12:25 PM
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In 1907, during the so-called Merenberg Affair, Georg Nikolaus Graf von Merenberg (1871 - 1948) laid down a claim on the succession to the throne of the Grand-Duchy of Luxembourg, the Duchy of Nassau as well a material claim to the domains, estates and fortune of the House of Nassau.

In view of the impending extinction of the princely Nassau line, he felt encouraged by a stipulation in the Nassauischer Erbverein of 1783, which stated that in the event of the princely agnates of the House of Nassau becoming extinct, the non-princely agnates were called to the throne before the princely daughters.

The Government of the Grand-Duchy solved the problem by including princely daughters into the succession to the throne in State legislation. All other, especially financial claims against the House of Nassau were settled in a quite lavish settlement with an annual pension of 40.000 Golden Marks against waiver of claims.
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  #35  
Old 08-15-2022, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Government of the Grand-Duchy solved the problem by including princely daughters into the succession to the throne in State legislation.
In a sense, their succession rights already were included in State legislation since the grand duchy's constitution stated (and continues to state) that the Crown of the Grand Duchy is hereditary in conformity with the 1783 pact (Erbverein). Of course, the 1907 bylaw gave more clarity regarding the legal provision.

As a clarification for readers who are unfamiliar with the 1783 Erbverein: Under the pact, the princesses of the house of Nassau were in the line of succession to the family's domains (from 1815 including the grand duchy of Luxembourg), estates and fortune, but only after all male lines had come to an end.

Article 42 stipulated that upon the extinction of the male heirs in the house of Nassau, the oldest daughter of the last male, assuming he had daughters (otherwise, the closest female in the Nassau family) would succeed him.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/nassau.htm#42

Article 42 also stated that new succession laws should then be created to decide who should succeed the female heir, as the Nassau family pact did not address this. Under the original laws of the family pact, female-line descendants could not be heirs; if the last male's oldest daughter predeceased him, his next oldest daughter (rather than his oldest daughter's children) would inherit. This was dealt with by the 1907 law.

https://legilux.public.lu/eli/etat/l...07/07/10/n1/jo

The 1907 law allowed all of Grand Duke Guillaume IV's legitimate descendants (excluding those descended from marriages unrecognized under the house rules) to be in the line of succession. It also changed the order of succession by stating that if any of his daughters predeceased her father, her descendants took precedence over her sisters and their descendants.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
In 1907, during the so-called Merenberg Affair, Georg Nikolaus Graf von Merenberg (1871 - 1948) laid down a claim on the succession to the throne of the Grand-Duchy of Luxembourg, the Duchy of Nassau as well a material claim to the domains, estates and fortune of the House of Nassau.

In view of the impending extinction of the princely Nassau line, he felt encouraged by a stipulation in the Nassauischer Erbverein of 1783, which stated that in the event of the princely agnates of the House of Nassau becoming extinct, the non-princely agnates were called to the throne before the princely daughters.
Interesting! Could you please quote the stipulation and post it to https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...-33317-8.html? (I think the Succession thread would be a more suitable place to continue.) I don't remember it from reading the Erbverein, but it is a complex and confusing document.
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  #36  
Old 08-15-2022, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I doubt Clotilde von Rintelen, Gräfin von Merenberg is a male-line descendant from Willem I von Nassau, Prince d'Orange. His legal male descandance ended in 1702 with the death of Willem III of Nassau, Prince of Orange (King of England, Scotland and Ireland and Stadtholder of the United Provinces).

The paternal Nassau line of Willem I von Nassau, Prince d'Orange, continued via his eldest brother Johann VI von Nassau, with Queen Wilhelmina as the last agnate in direct patrilineal descendance from this eldest brother of Prince Willem I.
Nikolaus of Nassau (1832-1905) married Natalia Pushkin (1836-1913) Natalia
Pushkin was the daughter of (poet) Alexander Pushkin And she became countess von Merenberg
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  #37  
Old 08-15-2022, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ronald biver View Post
Nikolaus of Nassau (1832-1905) married Natalia Pushkin (1836-1913) Natalia
Pushkin was the daughter of (poet) Alexander Pushkin And she became countess von Merenberg
Yes, that is correct, but Clotilde's great-grandfather Nikolaus was no descendant of Willem I of Nassau, Prince of Orange.

Clotilde is a straight descendant of Walram II of Nassau, the "founder" of the "Luxembourgian Nassau line".
(Walram's brother Otto was the "founder" of the "Dutch Nassau line").

Elizabeth Clotilde Gräfin von Merenberg (1941)
|
Georg Graf von Merenberg (1897-1965)
|
Georg Nikolaus Graf von Merenberg (1871-1948)
|
Nikolaus Wilhelm Prinz von Nassau (1832-1905)
|
Wilhelm Herzog von Nassau (1792-1839)
|
Friedrich Wilhelm Herzog von Nassau (1768-1816)
|
Karl Christian Fürst von Nassau-Weilburg (1735-1788)
|
Karl August Fürst von Nassau-Weilburg (1685-1753)
|
Johann Ernst Fürst von Nassau-Weilburg (1664-1719)
|
Friedrich Graf von Nassau-Weilburg (1640-1675)
|
Ernst-Casimir Graf von Nassau-Weilburg (1607-1655)
|
Ludwig II Graf von Nassau-Weilburg (1565-1627)
|
Albrecht Graf von Nassau-Weilburg (1537-1593)
|
Philipp III Graf von Nassau-Weilburg (1504-1559)
|
Ludwig I Graf von Nassau-Weilburg (1473-1533)
|
Philipp II Graf von Nassau-Weilburg (1418-1492)
|
Philipp I Graf von Nassau-Weilburg (1368-1429)
|
Johann I Graf von Nassau-Weilburg (1309-1471)
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Gerlach Graf von Nassau (Walram line) (1288-1361)
|
Adolf Graf von Nassau (Walram line) (1255-1298)
|
Walram II Graf von Nassau (founder of the Walram line) (1220-1276)
|
Heinrich II Graf von Nassau (1180-1247)
He is the shared direct strictly patrilineal ancestor of Wilhelmina of Orange-Nassau (Queen of the Netherlands), as well Charlotte of Nassau (Grand-Duchess of Luxembourg), as well Elizabeth Clotilde Gräfin von Merenberg.

In 1935 Charlotte of Nassau, Grand-Duchess of Luxembourg (grandmother of the current Grand-Duke) sold the lavish Schloss Weilburg to the State of Prussia. It is still German state-owned.

Picture

This picture as an example of how much was to gain by the Von Merenbergs and why no less than an annual rent of 40.000 Golden Marks was offered to waiver their claims.
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  #38  
Old 08-17-2022, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Yes, that is correct, but Clotilde's great-grandfather Nikolaus was no descendant of Willem I of Nassau, Prince of Orange.

Clotilde is a straight descendant of Walram II of Nassau, the "founder" of the "Luxembourgian Nassau line".
(Walram's brother Otto was the "founder" of the "Dutch Nassau line").

Elizabeth Clotilde Gräfin von Merenberg (1941)
|
Georg Graf von Merenberg (1897-1965)
|
Georg Nikolaus Graf von Merenberg (1871-1948)
|
Nikolaus Wilhelm Prinz von Nassau (1832-1905)
|
Wilhelm Herzog von Nassau (1792-1839)
|
Friedrich Wilhelm Herzog von Nassau (1768-1816)
|
Karl Christian Fürst von Nassau-Weilburg (1735-1788)
|
Karl August Fürst von Nassau-Weilburg (1685-1753)
|
Johann Ernst Fürst von Nassau-Weilburg (1664-1719)
|
Friedrich Graf von Nassau-Weilburg (1640-1675)
|
Ernst-Casimir Graf von Nassau-Weilburg (1607-1655)
|
Ludwig II Graf von Nassau-Weilburg (1565-1627)
|
Albrecht Graf von Nassau-Weilburg (1537-1593)
|
Philipp III Graf von Nassau-Weilburg (1504-1559)
|
Ludwig I Graf von Nassau-Weilburg (1473-1533)
|
Philipp II Graf von Nassau-Weilburg (1418-1492)
|
Philipp I Graf von Nassau-Weilburg (1368-1429)
|
Johann I Graf von Nassau-Weilburg (1309-1471)
|
Gerlach Graf von Nassau (Walram line) (1288-1361)
|
Adolf Graf von Nassau (Walram line) (1255-1298)
|
Walram II Graf von Nassau (founder of the Walram line) (1220-1276)
|
Heinrich II Graf von Nassau (1180-1247)
He is the shared direct strictly patrilineal ancestor of Wilhelmina of Orange-Nassau (Queen of the Netherlands), as well Charlotte of Nassau (Grand-Duchess of Luxembourg), as well Elizabeth Clotilde Gräfin von Merenberg.

In 1935 Charlotte of Nassau, Grand-Duchess of Luxembourg (grandmother of the current Grand-Duke) sold the lavish Schloss Weilburg to the State of Prussia. It is still German state-owned.

Picture

This picture as an example of how much was to gain by the Von Merenbergs and why no less than an annual rent of 40.000 Golden Marks was offered to waiver their claims.
The closest Clotilde is related to Willem I is, I believe, through her descent from one of his sisters.
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  #39  
Old 08-17-2022, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
The closest Clotilde is related to Willem I is, I believe, through her descent from one of his sisters.
In any way it is very distant. The closest Orange-Nassau relationship of Clotilde Gräfin von Merenberg -not patrilineal- will be via Queen Emma of the Netherlands I guess:

Elizabeth Clotilde Gräfin von Merenberg (1941)
|
Georg Graf von Merenberg (1897-1965)
||
Georg Nikolaus Graf von Merenberg (1871-1948)
|||
Nikolaus Wilhelm Prinz von Nassau (1832-1905)
||||
Wilhelm Herzog von Nassau (1792-1839)
||||
Helena Fürstin zu Waldeck und Pyrmont born Prinzessin von Nassau (1831-1888)
|||
Queen Emma of the Netherlands, Grand-Duchess of Luxembourg born Prinzessin zu Waldeck und Pyrmont (1858-1934)
||
Queen Juliana of the Netherlands (1909-2004)
|
Princess Beatrix of the Netherlands (1938)
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The House of Orange-Nassau in the Past Josefine Dutch Royal History 127 10-25-2006 09:03 AM




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