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  #41  
Old 03-30-2020, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Is that in any way linked to Infanta Pilar's decision not to be interred in the Pantheon of the Infantes?




.

Unlikely as she would have been in the Pantheon iof the Infantes where there are many places left and not in the Pantheon of the Kings.
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  #42  
Old 03-30-2020, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Is that in any way linked to Infanta Pilar's decision not to be interred in the Pantheon of the Infantes?




Unfortunately, after Iñaki Urdangarin's imprisonment, I suspect in the foreseeable future the Royal Family will view it as the safer course of action to leave the morganatic spouses without any title at all.
Its not a question though of giving a title to a morganatic spouse or not.

Spain is not like the UK, where its male members of the RF or the rare spouse of a royal princess, given the title. As in Sweden, Spain has given the life peerages to female members of the family as well. And like Daniel in Sweden, allowed the husband to use his wife's title. As would Chris have been if he had accepted a title, and the conditions that went with it.

Inaki was never Duke of Palma de Mallorca. He was the consort duke. His wife was created Duchess of Palma de Mallorca, until she had it stripped. The same with Elena. She was made Duchess of Lugo over two weeks before her wedding. Jaime was entitled to be referred to as Duke of Lugo during their marriage. When they divorced, he lost that right.

Pilar is another example, her duchy was created for her not Luis.

So the question is what possible duchy will Sofia be given as an adult. Not what question her husband may or may not be given.



The pantheon of the infants/infantas has plenty of room left, Pilar could have been buried there if she chose. It seems likely she just wished to be buried instead next to her husband of 24 years.
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  #43  
Old 03-30-2020, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Its not a question though of giving a title to a morganatic spouse or not.

Spain is not like the UK, where its male members of the RF or the rare spouse of a royal princess, given the title. As in Sweden, Spain has given the life peerages to female members of the family as well. And like Daniel in Sweden, allowed the husband to use his wife's title. As would Chris have been if he had accepted a title, and the conditions that went with it.

Inaki was never Duke of Palma de Mallorca. He was the consort duke. His wife was created Duchess of Palma de Mallorca, until she had it stripped. The same with Elena. She was made Duchess of Lugo over two weeks before her wedding. Jaime was entitled to be referred to as Duke of Lugo during their marriage. When they divorced, he lost that right.

Pilar is another example, her duchy was created for her not Luis.

So the question is what possible duchy will Sofia be given as an adult. Not what question her husband may or may not be given.
I think I didn't make myself clear.

Yes, the title Duke of Segovia was given to Infante Jaime, and his wife was the duchess consort. Likewise, the titles Duchess of Lugo and Duchess of Palma de Mallorca were given to Infanta Elena and Infanta Cristina respectively, and their husbands were dukes consort.

However, the titles were created for use by their morganatic spouses. They were of no real value to the Infantes/Infantas themselves.

Unlike the United Kingdom, it is not the custom in Spain for an Infante/Infanta to use their ducal title. In Spain, Infanta/Infante is the higher title. The Infantes/Infantas who married morganatically continued to be called HRH Infante/Infanta (not HRH The Duke/Duchess) after they were given their dukedoms.
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  #44  
Old 04-01-2020, 04:23 AM
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However, the titles were created for use by their morganatic spouses. They were of no real value to the Infantes/Infantas themselves.

Unlike the United Kingdom, it is not the custom in Spain for an Infante/Infanta to use their ducal title. In Spain, Infanta/Infante is the higher title. The Infantes/Infantas who married morganatically continued to be called HRH Infante/Infanta (not HRH The Duke/Duchess) after they were given their dukedoms.

But actually onl the marrige of Infante Jaime was a morganatic one. The marraioges of Infantas Elena and Cristina where not morganatic as the Pragamtic Decree of King Carlos III. is accepted as having been overruled bv the constiution of 1978.

And if the attended Events together they where usually referred to as the Dukes of Lugo not as Infanta Elena and the Duke of Lugo.
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  #45  
Old 04-01-2020, 05:32 AM
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But actually onl the marrige of Infante Jaime was a morganatic one. The marraioges of Infantas Elena and Cristina where not morganatic as the Pragamtic Decree of King Carlos III. is accepted as having been overruled bv the constiution of 1978.
My understanding was that people on royalty forums usually define a "morganatic" spouse as one who does not take the spouse's rank upon marriage. Due to the overruling of the Pragmatic Decree, the marriages of Infantas Elena and Cristina were equal. Nevertheless, according to the Royal Decree of 1987, Infantes/Infantas cannot share their ranks and titles with their spouses, in spite of the marriage being equal.

What I was trying to say is that Emanuela de Dampierre, Jaime de Marichalar and Iñaki Urdangarin did not share the royal titles of their spouses (which was the general rule for equal spouses who joined the Spanish royal family prior to 1987), and that if they had, the ducal titles would not be needed and would never have been created.


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And if the attended Events together they where usually referred to as the Dukes of Lugo not as Infanta Elena and the Duke of Lugo.
That's true. The couple was naturally referred to as "the Dukes" as they could not be referred to as "the Infantes" as was usual before 1987 (since Jaime was not an Infante). What I was trying to say is that Infanta Elena herself was not usually referred to as "the Duchess", and thus the ducal title was created for the benefit of Jaime, not Elena.
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  #46  
Old 04-01-2020, 05:39 AM
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My understanding was that people on royalty forums usually define a "morganatic" spouse as one who does not take the spouse's rank upon marriage.

I understand morgantaic marraiges as marriages where the Partner does not take the partners ranks and their children don't have succession rights as for example in the case of Archduke franz Ferdinand of Austria and Coutness Sophie Chotek.
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  #47  
Old 04-01-2020, 05:52 AM
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I understand morgantaic marraiges as marriages where the Partner does not take the partners ranks and their children don't have succession rights as for example in the case of Archduke franz Ferdinand of Austria and Coutness Sophie Chotek.
I apologize for the miscommunication, as it seems there are several different concepts of morganatic marriages (for instance I have seen references to the marriage of Archduke Ferdinand to Philippine Welser in the 16th century as morganatic even though their children were given succession rights). I will try to be more specific in future discussions.
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  #48  
Old 05-02-2021, 07:36 AM
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Biography of Infante Jaime:
Jaime de Borbón y Battenberg | Real Academia de la Historia
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  #49  
Old 05-02-2021, 09:48 AM
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What a shame the Duke of Segovia did not live long enough to see his nephew become king 8 months after his death.
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  #50  
Old 05-02-2021, 12:58 PM
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The Duc of Segovie married Emmanelle de Dampierre and had two Sons Alphonse and Gonzalvo They divorced and She remaried civily an Italian.
The Duc of Segovie married Charlotte Biedeman , famous opera singer. She was his wife until he passed away. She learned him improving his speaking.
And all changed with the Wedding of Alphonse with Carmen grand daughter of Franco. Huge Wedding !The second wife did not attend the Wedding and Emmanuelle nobody knew before, took back the tittle of Duchess of Segovie and Anjou.
Charlotte Tiedeman died ill ,alone and in money need. She sold to survive Queen Ena's bracelet/ watch . This item will be sold for the second time on May 7th by Coutau Begarie Paris.
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  #51  
Old 05-02-2021, 02:33 PM
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I wonder if his second wife Charlotte was styled HRH The Duchess of Segovia?

I had forgotten that the duke had remarried.
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  #52  
Old 05-02-2021, 02:49 PM
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I wonder if his second wife Charlotte was styled HRH The Duchess of Segovia?
Infante Jaime's divorce and remarriage were not recognized in Spain, as divorce was barred under Franco's government. Because she was not Jaime's wife under Spanish law, Charlotte was not entitled to a Spanish title.

Had she been recognized in Spanish law as Jaime's morganatic wife, she would have been HE the Duchess of Segovia. Had she been recognized as an equal and dynastic wife, she would have been styled HRH Infanta Doña Carlota.
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  #53  
Old 05-02-2021, 02:54 PM
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Upon further reading I discovered that Charlotte was also Lutheran and didn't convert to Catholicism until 1979 a few months before her death.
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  #54  
Old 05-02-2021, 04:05 PM
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I don't remember , but were Alfonso and Gonzalo Royal Hignesses?
Alphonse and Carmen were Duke and Duchess of Cadix RHH ?
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  #55  
Old 05-02-2021, 04:20 PM
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And also why wasi Princess Anne de France never Infanta ?
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  #56  
Old 05-02-2021, 04:45 PM
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I don't remember , but were Alfonso and Gonzalo Royal Hignesses?
Alphonse and Carmen were Duke and Duchess of Cadix RHH ?
Prior to the Constitution of 1978, it was traditional to give HRH to spouses and children of Infantes or Infantas only if the marriage was "equal" (with rare exception). Infante Jaime married unequally, and his wife and children were not recognized as HRHs by the Royal Family.

However, General Franco, who governed Spain for many decades, did recognize Don Jaime's wife and children as HRH, and under Franco they were registered with government departments as HRH.

The Royal Family assented to recognizing Don Alfonso as HRH in 1972 as Franco insisted on issuing an official decree to award him HRH. The decree extended to Alfonso's wife and descendants, but after King Juan Carlos' accession to the throne, the King issued a decree in 1987 which he intended to limit the HRH to Alfonso personally.

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And also why wasi Princess Anne de France never Infanta ?
Because under the rules of the Royal Decree of 1987, the title of Infante/Infanta is never automatically awarded to spouses.
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