The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #41  
Old 03-30-2020, 04:02 PM
Stefan's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Esslingen, Germany
Posts: 5,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Is that in any way linked to Infanta Pilar's decision not to be interred in the Pantheon of the Infantes?




.

Unlikely as she would have been in the Pantheon iof the Infantes where there are many places left and not in the Pantheon of the Kings.
__________________

__________________
Stefan



Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 03-30-2020, 05:47 PM
Countessmeout's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: alberta, Canada
Posts: 12,817
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Is that in any way linked to Infanta Pilar's decision not to be interred in the Pantheon of the Infantes?




Unfortunately, after Iñaki Urdangarin's imprisonment, I suspect in the foreseeable future the Royal Family will view it as the safer course of action to leave the morganatic spouses without any title at all.
Its not a question though of giving a title to a morganatic spouse or not.

Spain is not like the UK, where its male members of the RF or the rare spouse of a royal princess, given the title. As in Sweden, Spain has given the life peerages to female members of the family as well. And like Daniel in Sweden, allowed the husband to use his wife's title. As would Chris have been if he had accepted a title, and the conditions that went with it.

Inaki was never Duke of Palma de Mallorca. He was the consort duke. His wife was created Duchess of Palma de Mallorca, until she had it stripped. The same with Elena. She was made Duchess of Lugo over two weeks before her wedding. Jaime was entitled to be referred to as Duke of Lugo during their marriage. When they divorced, he lost that right.

Pilar is another example, her duchy was created for her not Luis.

So the question is what possible duchy will Sofia be given as an adult. Not what question her husband may or may not be given.



The pantheon of the infants/infantas has plenty of room left, Pilar could have been buried there if she chose. It seems likely she just wished to be buried instead next to her husband of 24 years.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 03-30-2020, 06:28 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Its not a question though of giving a title to a morganatic spouse or not.

Spain is not like the UK, where its male members of the RF or the rare spouse of a royal princess, given the title. As in Sweden, Spain has given the life peerages to female members of the family as well. And like Daniel in Sweden, allowed the husband to use his wife's title. As would Chris have been if he had accepted a title, and the conditions that went with it.

Inaki was never Duke of Palma de Mallorca. He was the consort duke. His wife was created Duchess of Palma de Mallorca, until she had it stripped. The same with Elena. She was made Duchess of Lugo over two weeks before her wedding. Jaime was entitled to be referred to as Duke of Lugo during their marriage. When they divorced, he lost that right.

Pilar is another example, her duchy was created for her not Luis.

So the question is what possible duchy will Sofia be given as an adult. Not what question her husband may or may not be given.
I think I didn't make myself clear.

Yes, the title Duke of Segovia was given to Infante Jaime, and his wife was the duchess consort. Likewise, the titles Duchess of Lugo and Duchess of Palma de Mallorca were given to Infanta Elena and Infanta Cristina respectively, and their husbands were dukes consort.

However, the titles were created for use by their morganatic spouses. They were of no real value to the Infantes/Infantas themselves.

Unlike the United Kingdom, it is not the custom in Spain for an Infante/Infanta to use their ducal title. In Spain, Infanta/Infante is the higher title. The Infantes/Infantas who married morganatically continued to be called HRH Infante/Infanta (not HRH The Duke/Duchess) after they were given their dukedoms.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 04-01-2020, 04:23 AM
Stefan's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Esslingen, Germany
Posts: 5,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post



However, the titles were created for use by their morganatic spouses. They were of no real value to the Infantes/Infantas themselves.

Unlike the United Kingdom, it is not the custom in Spain for an Infante/Infanta to use their ducal title. In Spain, Infanta/Infante is the higher title. The Infantes/Infantas who married morganatically continued to be called HRH Infante/Infanta (not HRH The Duke/Duchess) after they were given their dukedoms.

But actually onl the marrige of Infante Jaime was a morganatic one. The marraioges of Infantas Elena and Cristina where not morganatic as the Pragamtic Decree of King Carlos III. is accepted as having been overruled bv the constiution of 1978.

And if the attended Events together they where usually referred to as the Dukes of Lugo not as Infanta Elena and the Duke of Lugo.
__________________
Stefan



Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 04-01-2020, 05:32 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
But actually onl the marrige of Infante Jaime was a morganatic one. The marraioges of Infantas Elena and Cristina where not morganatic as the Pragamtic Decree of King Carlos III. is accepted as having been overruled bv the constiution of 1978.
My understanding was that people on royalty forums usually define a "morganatic" spouse as one who does not take the spouse's rank upon marriage. Due to the overruling of the Pragmatic Decree, the marriages of Infantas Elena and Cristina were equal. Nevertheless, according to the Royal Decree of 1987, Infantes/Infantas cannot share their ranks and titles with their spouses, in spite of the marriage being equal.

What I was trying to say is that Emanuela de Dampierre, Jaime de Marichalar and Iñaki Urdangarin did not share the royal titles of their spouses (which was the general rule for equal spouses who joined the Spanish royal family prior to 1987), and that if they had, the ducal titles would not be needed and would never have been created.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
And if the attended Events together they where usually referred to as the Dukes of Lugo not as Infanta Elena and the Duke of Lugo.
That's true. The couple was naturally referred to as "the Dukes" as they could not be referred to as "the Infantes" as was usual before 1987 (since Jaime was not an Infante). What I was trying to say is that Infanta Elena herself was not usually referred to as "the Duchess", and thus the ducal title was created for the benefit of Jaime, not Elena.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 04-01-2020, 05:39 AM
Stefan's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Esslingen, Germany
Posts: 5,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
My understanding was that people on royalty forums usually define a "morganatic" spouse as one who does not take the spouse's rank upon marriage.

I understand morgantaic marraiges as marriages where the Partner does not take the partners ranks and their children don't have succession rights as for example in the case of Archduke franz Ferdinand of Austria and Coutness Sophie Chotek.
__________________
Stefan



Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 04-01-2020, 05:52 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
I understand morgantaic marraiges as marriages where the Partner does not take the partners ranks and their children don't have succession rights as for example in the case of Archduke franz Ferdinand of Austria and Coutness Sophie Chotek.
I apologize for the miscommunication, as it seems there are several different concepts of morganatic marriages (for instance I have seen references to the marriage of Archduke Ferdinand to Philippine Welser in the 16th century as morganatic even though their children were given succession rights). I will try to be more specific in future discussions.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Infanta Elena of Spain & Don Jaime de Marichalar 1995 Josefine Royal Weddings 92 09-19-2020 08:38 AM
Names For Future Infante/Infanta wymanda King Felipe VI, Queen Letizia and Family 121 10-30-2005 10:24 PM




Popular Tags
#royalrelatives #royalgenes abu dhabi american american history anastasia once upon a time ancestry baby names british royal family british royals brownbitcoinqueen carolin china chinese ming dynasty asia asian emperor royalty qing cpr dresses duchess of sussex duke of sussex earl of snowdon edward vii family tree general news thread george vi gradenigo hereditary grand duchess stéphanie history hochberg house of windsor hypothetical monarchs imperial household interesting introduction jewellery jewelry kids movie list of rulers luxembourg maxima monarchy mountbatten nepal nepalese royal family pless princess alexia (2005 -) princess chulabhorn princess dita princess eugenie princess laurentien princess of orange queen elizabeth ii queen victoria resusci anne royal balls royal events royal family royal jewels royal spouse royalty royalty of taiwan royal wedding russian court dress spain stuart sussex swedish queen thai royal family tradition unfinished portrait united states united states of america wedding gown welsh


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:20 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2021
Jelsoft Enterprises
×