Turkey: The Ottoman Empire - House of Osman


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fandesacs2003 said:
Thanks Warren for this information. Ottoman Court protokol looks very complicated. I read somewher that the term "Padishad" comes from farsi language, and it is superior to the term of Sultan, its includes also the title of Chaliph, a kind of supreme combination of Political+religious power.
Bonbon what exact means the term of chalvet?? They do not translate it in the greek subtitles of the Syleyman serie. I understand that it means the night when the Sultan will have a woman in his bed, but do they fix this night according to some signs? Position of the moon, or order of the Religion? It is strange how the Court servants talk about : "It is chalvet tonight"
And I still do not understand how the Hasontabasis-Ibrahim, Man non castrated walks inside the Palace, and can meet Hatitze Sultan, and talk to her, without being covered.
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Hi :)
First of al Caliph is a religious title and on 3 May 1934 this title is abrogated. Caliph was equivalent of Pope, but for Muslims of course and Ottoman dynasty held this title during 1934. At the present day there is no Caliph.

Chalvet (halvet in Turkish) literally means solitude but in that serie and of course in court it means Sultan will spend the night with a concubine. In other words he will spend the night alone with a woman. It is not arranged according to signs or lunar calender. It can be arranged according to Padishah's or head of Harem's wishes, in this case mother of the reigning sultan (Valide Sultan).

İbrahim has some privilages for being grand vizier but women in palace can talk to men (not all men of course men in court) without being covered because these women are Padishah's Harem and no men can do anything to these women. They can't dare it. Hatice is also living in Harem and she is the sister of Padishah. You will see Hürrem will talk to other men without covered too because she is in favour of Padishah. Women were not wearing hijab, it's not Ottoman culture, it's Arabic culture. Women were never so conservative in Ottoman Empire period. They just put a relatively conservative headscarf outside their homes.
 
Bonbon said:
Hi :)
First of al Caliph is a religious title and on 3 May 1934 this title is abrogated. Caliph was equivalent of Pope, but for Muslims of course and Ottoman dynasty held this title during 1934. At the present day there is no Caliph.

Chalvet (halvet in Turkish) literally means solitude but in that serie and of course in court it means Sultan will spend the night with a concubine. In other words he will spend the night alone with a woman. It is not arranged according to signs or lunar calender. It can be arranged according to Padishah's or head of Harem's wishes, in this case mother of the reigning sultan (Valide Sultan).

İbrahim has some privilages for being grand vizier but women in palace can talk to men (not all men of course men in court) without being covered because these women are Padishah's Harem and no men can do anything to these women. They can't dare it. Hatice is also living in Harem and she is the sister of Padishah. You will see Hürrem will talk to other men without covered too because she is in favour of Padishah. Women were not wearing hijab, it's not Ottoman culture, it's Arabic culture. Women were never so conservative in Ottoman Empire period. They just put a relatively conservative headscarf outside their homes.
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Fascinating information, thanks soo much neighbour.
It is very interesting to see how all these uses and habits have been established, and how it should be difficult to manage such a place like Padishah's palace. It should be a very crowed place, and should be necessary to strictly follow all rules.

PS. Can't wait to see how will take place the "connection" between Ibrahim and Hatzitze... as apparently both parties are terrified. (presume that it is unthinkable to look at Sultan's sister.... and as the only person who know the attraction, i.e. Hurrem, wants to sabote it.
 
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fandesacs2003 said:
Fascinating information, thanks soo much neighbour.
It is very interesting to see how all these uses and habits have been established, and how it should be difficult to manage such a place like Padishah's palace. It should be a very crowed place, and should be necessary to strictly follow all rules.

PS. Can't wait to see how will take place the "connection" between Ibrahim and Hatzitze... as apparently both parties are terrified. (presume that it is unthinkable to look at Sultan's sister.... and as the only person who know the attraction, i.e. Hurrem, wants to sabote it.
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Anytime :flowers:
Yes it was a crowded place, concubines, members of family, eunuches, cooks and staff... During Ottoman Empire period these rules and customs are generally followed but in such exceptional periods, like Hürrem's period, some rules were broken. You will watch them on the serie.

Between İbrahim and Hatice (Hatzitze) it will be difficult but at the end all will settle :)
 
fandesacs2003 I've found something for you and I'm sure you will enjoy watching it. Via this link you can watch the Hürrem's Turkish bath that Suleyman built for Hürrem, not with his bare hands of course he ordered the construction :lol:

Mimar Sinan is the architect of the building and it was built between 1556 – 1557. It was active since 1910 and closed. Then couple of years ago it has been restorated for 7.271.238 euros.:ohmy: Now it's open to public use. You can watch the inside of it and read about its history.

To watch inside; Turkish Bath
To read info; Ayasofya Hamamı
 
Hello to eveyone
Again to Soleiman the magnificent, and the relative Turkish TV serie. It is not said at the TV serie, but I've read that the use into each Sultan's family was that when the Sultan died and hs first son became Sultan, all his other brothers were executed. It is crazy to grow up, knowing that, because you are not the first boy, you might die young. Did it happen always like this??
Did Suleiman had brothers??? In the serie they talk only about the sister Hacice, not for any other siblings.
It is funny to think that a Sultan with so many women at his disposal, had only 2 kids!!
And I did not find anywhere, if Suleiman had other kids than with Machidevran and Hurrem, so maybe Hurrem succeded to make him not to see other women.
 
fandesacs2003 said:
Hello to eveyone
Again to Soleiman the magnificent, and the relative Turkish TV serie. It is not said at the TV serie, but I've read that the use into each Sultan's family was that when the Sultan died and hs first son became Sultan, all his other brothers were executed. It is crazy to grow up, knowing that, because you are not the first boy, you might die young. Did it happen always like this??
Did Suleiman had brothers??? In the serie they talk only about the sister Hacice, not for any other siblings.
It is funny to think that a Sultan with so many women at his disposal, had only 2 kids!!
And I did not find anywhere, if Suleiman had other kids than with Machidevran and Hurrem, so maybe Hurrem succeded to make him not to see other women.
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Hi :)
It's an accurate hearsay and it was an act to protect the Empire. It prevented wars between sons and eventually a civil war but it was not particularly the first son killed the others. The minor brother could kill the first heir. It depended on his power. It wasn't like this in the beginning but as the Empire expended it came to that point. And yes they knew only one of their brothers would survive, they brought up knowing this fact.

Another info; the heir can only have the other siblings and brothers choked to death. He can not kill him/her with sword, knife or gun. The blood of the Ottoman Dynasty can not be spilled.

Suleyman had 6 siblings, no brothers. So he was kind of lucky. On the other hand he killed his uncle's son Murat and Murat's son in Rhodes. He had her son, Mustafa choked to death. In other words he killed his first born son and the heir to the throne. He had 4 sons and a daughter with Hurrem. These sons fought and finally Suleyman's 4th son Selim (his son with Hurrem) became Sultan.

He had a son with Gulfem. His name was Murat.(Died.)
A son with Ful-Dane. His name was Mahmut. (Also died.)
Suleyman had a son with Mahidevran. His name was Mustafa. (The one Suleyman killed.)
He had Mehmet, Beyazıt, Selim, Cihangir and Mihrimah with Hurrem.
He may had sons and daughters from other concubines but they are not in records.
 
Thanks bonbon, you are a precious source!!
I watched the engagement ceremony, very interesting to see the mentality of this era. The ceremony took place on two separate rooms, one only for females, the other only for men. The couple to wed, did not meet. The only male who has been admitted into the women's room, was of course the Sultan. The funny think is that the two young persons can easily meet and talk inside the harem, but for the the engagement, they have to be separate.
 
A nice site about all the Osmanli Sultans. OTTOMAN WEB SITE - FORSNET

I can not judge how exact are information, but it is nice to quickly find what we are looking for.

For ex. Sultan Mahmoud II had 11 sons and 13 daughters. It is not said with how many mothers!!!
 
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fandesacs2003 said:
Thanks bonbon, you are a precious source!!
I watched the engagement ceremony, very interesting to see the mentality of this era. The ceremony took place on two separate rooms, one only for females, the other only for men. The couple to wed, did not meet. The only male who has been admitted into the women's room, was of course the Sultan. The funny think is that the two young persons can easily meet and talk inside the harem, but for the the engagement, they have to be separate.
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You're welcome & thanks :flowers:
Well that seperation thing is religious, women were being seperated from men according to Islamic laws. Today it's not an applicable law/custom but at old times it was the only way to engage or to wed couples.
 
Bonbon said:
You're welcome & thanks :flowers:
Well that seperation thing is religious, women were being seperated from men according to Islamic laws. Today it's not an applicable law/custom but at old times it was the only way to engage or to wed couples.
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Poor Hacice, she could not even see whom she was supposed to marry, but she often saw and talk to whom she was in love with...:p

I'm wondering if Ibrahim was really inlove with Hacice, or if it was a perfect way for him to climb.
I do not know if it was true at this moment, but the serie lets the impression that it was unthinkable for this two to have any sentimental bound together, maybe because an ex-giaour and former janissaire could not even dare to have a glance to a Sultan's daughter and sister..

Anyway, it is funny and interesting to follow this serie, it teaches a lot of things. I read that in Turkey, they were a lot of protest against it, up to now I can not see why.
And I LOVE their clothes, especially of Soleyman, very nice silk, brocades, who made them?? Nevetheless, he is very poor on concubines.... not moe than 20... too few for such a Sultan.
 
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Ibrahim Pasha became Grand Vizir, and got engaged to Hatice, Sultan's sister (allellhuiiia). They received as gift, the following Palace to live.
Ibrahim Pasha Palace in Istanbul - Turkey

The interesting point is that when Ibrahim Pasha was executed, all his belongings were confiscated. But what about his wife? She was Sultan's sister, was she reduced to poverty??
 
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:previous: Hi :)

In Turkey some people protested the serie because it is focusing on the Harem life not on the victories of Suleyman. Suleyman was one of the most successful Padishahs in Ottoman Empire history. They didn't think it was fair to underestimate his success by focusing on Harem life and to major on as if he was always cogitating on his Harem.

The Ibrahim Pasha Palace was a gift to them to live in. Principally it belonged to Ottoman Empire. When Pasha was executed the palace was still an Ottoman Empire belonging and it was impossible/inappropriate Hatice to live alone in a palace as a widow at that times. So she moved back to Harem with her children and she lived in the Palace and after Ibrahim's execution she never married again but she lived in wealth.
 
Bonbon said:
:previous: Hi :)

In Turkey some people protested the serie because it is focusing on the Harem life not on the victories of Suleyman. Suleyman was one of the most successful Padishahs in Ottoman Empire history. They didn't think it was fair to underestimate his success by focusing on Harem life and to major on as if he was always cogitating on his Harem.
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Hello, I was wondering where have you been.
I agree with this opinion, I felt also the same. Suleyman was a great Conqueror, and a great legislator. Out of some pale references to conquest of Rhodes & Hungary, the Sultan seems to spend his whole day with women's fightings and unsuccessfull halvets... It is not fair for his memory.

Bonbon said:
:previous: Hi :)

So she moved back to Harem with her children and she lived in the Palace and after Ibrahim's execution she never married again but she lived in wealth.
Click to expand...

I feel so sorry for Hatice, she seems a very sweet person, destinated to accept other people's decisions.
 
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I was traveling i couldn't check the forum but I'm back :)

These protests were very understandable but passed after people watched the series first part. It generally focuses on Harem and especially on Hurrem. I can say it's all about the Harem side of the Ottoman Empire.

Hatice or another woman no matter her position, women were obliged to accept their family's or older ones decisions. It was kind of a tradition to respect their choices but you will see all will find a way to do what they want. You can't stop women :lol:
 
I have discovered an interesting point. THe House of Osman is one of the very few dynasties, which have been ruling without interruption (I mean the same family), for 700years.
All other countries, in ex, England, France, etc, changed ruling family.
Denmark is the older same dynasty, ruling since 1190, so abt 200 y more than the Osman.
Monaco's dynasty is slightly longer, but "less direct", some 2nd cousins entered in line, etc etc
I think, at least in Europe, there is no other Royal Family who ruled uninterrupted so long.
So apparenly the Ottoman method, to eliminate the other brothers of each new Sultan was sucessful. Brothers were out of the game, and 2nd and 3rd cousins were too affraid to try anything against the new sultan.
 
On the facebook-page of princess ayse osmanoglu are many pictures of the royal family:)
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ayse-Osmanoglu/232104430211248?fref=ts

This is the official website of prince selim djem. You can see many pictures of him and his family
Sélim Djem

kenize murad official rajkumari kenize of kotwara is the daughter of the last raja of kotwara and the princess selma hanimsultan of ottOman. princess selma was the granddaughter from sultan murad V .
The turkish tv trt makes a biography for kenize mourad.
you can see her many pictures from her and her mother 28. Bölüm Osmanl
 
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The foreign minister of Turkey Ahmet Davudoğlu and 20member of the ottoman royal family on the dinner in london at 08.03.2013 Davuto
 
Princess Ayse Gülnev Osmanoglu & Family

Princess Ayse is an ottoman princess born 17.01.1971 in England. She is married with the English Nicholas Sutton on 27 August 1994. She has 5 children, four sons and one daughter. Prince (Sultanzade) Maximilian Ali Beyefendi, Sutton. born in London, England 15 January 2000, Prince (Sultanzade) Cosmo Tarik Beyefendi, Sutton. born in London, England 10 September 2001, Prince (Sultanzade) Lysander Cengiz Beyefendi, Sutton. born in London, England 12 April 2003, Prince (Sultanzade) Ferdinand Ziya Beyefendi, Sutton. born in Sussex, England, 26 July 2006, Princess Tatyana Aliye Hanımsultan, Sutton. born in Sussex, England, 25 March 2005. (via Wikipedia) Osmano
her children File:Ay
Damad Nicholas suttons wikipedia Nicholas Sutton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
pRINCESS Ayse http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cc/Ayşe-Gülnev-Osmanoğlu.jpg
Princess Ayses official Facebook adress with many pictures https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ayse-Osmanoglu/232104430211248
She is the most public ottoman princess in Turkey.
 
 
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sancakli70 said:
Princess Ayse is an ottoman princess born 17.01.1971 in England. She is married with the English Nicholas Sutton on 27 August 1994. She has 5 children, four sons and one daughter. Prince (Sultanzade) Maximilian Ali Beyefendi, Sutton. born in London, England 15 January 2000, Prince (Sultanzade) Cosmo Tarik Beyefendi, Sutton. born in London, England 10 September 2001, Prince (Sultanzade) Lysander Cengiz Beyefendi, Sutton. born in London, England 12 April 2003, Prince (Sultanzade) Ferdinand Ziya Beyefendi, Sutton. born in Sussex, England, 26 July 2006, Princess Tatyana Aliye Hanımsultan, Sutton. born in Sussex, England, 25 March 2005. (via Wikipedia) Osmano
her children File:Ay
Damad Nicholas suttons wikipedia Nicholas Sutton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
pRINCESS Ayse http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cc/Ayşe-Gülnev-Osmanoğlu.jpg
Princess Ayses official Facebook adress with many pictures https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ayse-Osmanoglu/232104430211248
She is the most public ottoman princess in Turkey.
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Given the fact that Mr. Sutton is a commoner, is Princess Ayses allowed to confer the titles to her children?
 
:previous:
Ottoman rules differ to those of European Monarchies. Sultanzade and Hanimsultan * are the titles of, respectively, sons and daughters of an Imperial Princess of the Ottoman Empire. When the Imperial Princess in question had no succession rights, her children were styled as Sultanzade + Name + Bey-Efendi. They also carried the style of HH (His/Her Highness).

Sultanzade translates as a Prince, so it is quite accurate to style Princess Ayses' children as Princes and Princesses.


* I corrected the titles for daughters of Imperial Princesses.
 
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The childrens of the princesses becomes titles as princess and prince too but then end the titles.
 
Artemisia said:
:previous:
Ottoman rules differ to those of European Monarchies. Sultanzade and Sultanzada are the titles of, respectively, sons and daughters of an Imperial Princess of the Ottoman Empire. When the Imperial Princess in question had no succession rights, her children were styled as Sultanzade/Sultanzada Name Bey-Efendi.

Sultanzade translates as a Prince, so it is quite accurate to style Princess Ayses' children as Princes and Princesses.
Click to expand...
It has been most kind of you to clarify the title situation.:flowers::flowers::flowers: The rules are both unusual and interesting indeed.
 
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