Turkey: The Ottoman Empire - House of Osman

[fandesacs2003]

Hello, I'm back, after 3 nice episodes of Suleyman, and new details on the ottoman court uses and customs.
For example, Hurrem asked to become muslim, and Suleyman is very touched by her action. I read that after her conversion to Islam, Hurrem became free, and Suleyman married her, breaking centuries of tradition.
So I understand that NOONE of the previous Hasekis+Kadines never ever converted and Hurrem was the first?? What about the Valide Sultanes?? They were still Christians? I found this freedom very interesting and mixed in the meantime. You are a slave inside the Palace, but you are free to keep your religion!
Or I'm wrong to all?????

[Bonbon]

Hi
Suleyman is touched because she chooses to be a muslim, but being muslim is not the sign of freedom. Padishah needs to set her free because she is still a concubin. The thing is after being muslim she can not be with him without being married religiously. This is the trick. Lots of historians agree that she became muslim to get married to Suleyman but we can not be absolutely sure about that.
No Hurrem was not the first but she is the one in favour of Padishah and the one who converted. Not all concubins can be with Padishah, so not all convertions of concubins matter.

Valide Sultans are muslim but they are not particulary have a concubin origin. They may born in a muslim family. They are generaly daughters of noble families.

No you are right they can keep their religion, no one could ever force them to convert. Forcing someone to convert is against islamic belief. Besides, they are not that slaves, if they don't want to stay in palace they can asked to be married. They get married with high ranking soldiers or pashahs anytime they want.

Hurrem is the first concubin to be married to a Padishah but before Suleyman and Hurrem there are several Padishahs who got married. But they married with daughters of noble families not with concubins. Pretty complicated the Ottoman Empire

[fandesacs2003]

Thanks neigbour!!!
YES, it is complicated. Imagine if you were Occidental diplomate at the Ottoman court... how long you should learn to understand their way of thinking and acting!

[Bonbon]

Hahahahaaa You are absolutely right, it takes years to understand all

[fandesacs2003]

Originally Posted by Bonbon

Hahahahaaa You are absolutely right, it takes years to understand all

And after these years.... they were called back to their countries

Tonight Suleyman should punish Mahridevan (not sure for the spelling..) because she much much hurted Hurrem to blood!

Stupid woman, she is destroying her position of Hasike because of her sick jalousy. Not everyone is intelligent like Hurrem.

[Bonbon]

It's Mahidevran Mahidevran will be punished several times but it's hard to disgrace a Hasike, she is powerfull and important as being the mother of an heir. Eventually she will destroy herself, of course with a little help of Hürrem. Hard to oppose Hürrem anyway

[fandesacs2003]

Originally Posted by Bonbon

It's Mahidevran Mahidevran will be punished several times but it's hard to disgrace a Hasike, she is powerfull and important as being the mother of an heir. Eventually she will destroy herself, of course with a little help of Hürrem. Hard to oppose Hürrem anyway

Thanks!
I have now a question about how to style the Sultan. In occidental courts they have Highness, Majesty, Imperial Majesty. In greek texts, when they are talking about the Paddisha, they style/call him "Polychronemene=Longlived" Sultan (they do not traslate the Paddishah)
But in this serie, they style him EXCELLENCY, but I think it is wrong, no? What is the correct style and the english traslation??
Thanks

[Bonbon]

Originally Posted by fandesacs2003

Thanks!
I have now a question about how to style the Sultan. In occidental courts they have Highness, Majesty, Imperial Majesty. In greek texts, when they are talking about the Paddisha, they style/call him "Polychronemene=Longlived" Sultan (they do not traslate the Paddishah)
But in this serie, they style him EXCELLENCY, but I think it is wrong, no? What is the correct style and the english traslation??
Thanks

Oh translating the style of a Padishah can be veeeery tricky. For translation of a serie one may translate as excellency or highness but in Ottoman Empire others call him as Sultanım (my Sultan), Hünkarım (my sovereign), Haşmetmeap (his royal highness). Sultan is the most common style, Suleyman's full style is for example; Kanuni Sultan Süleyman.

[Warren]

In reference to the Sultan, his style in English was His Imperial Majesty the Sultan of Turkey or His Imperial Majesty the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire.
"Padishah" was a term used more in the East, but rarely in the West where "Sultan" was preferred.
The Holy Roman Emperor had referred to the Ottoman Sultan as "Emperor" since the 17th century, thus giving the Sultanate "official" Imperial status in Europe.

The official full style of the reigning Ottoman Emperor was stabilised from the middle of the 16th century until the fall of the dynasty and in English the first of the styles and titles translate as:
"His Sacred and Imperial Majesty, Emperor [Padishah], Sovereign of the House of Osman, Sultan of Sultans, Khan of Khans, Commander of the Faithful and Successor of the Prophet of the Lord of the Universe, Custodian of the Holy Sanctuaries, Emperor of Rome... etc etc."

Abdülmecid II, the last Caliph from 1922-1924, was styled the same as previous Sultans, His Imperial Majesty, as Caliph of Islam and Head of the Imperial House of Osman.
Immediate members of the Imperial House bore (bear) the style of His or Her Imperial Highness (HIH).

[fandesacs2003]

Thanks Warren for this information. Ottoman Court protokol looks very complicated. I read somewher that the term "Padishad" comes from farsi language, and it is superior to the term of Sultan, its includes also the title of Chaliph, a kind of supreme combination of Political+religious power.
Bonbon what exact means the term of chalvet?? They do not translate it in the greek subtitles of the Syleyman serie. I understand that it means the night when the Sultan will have a woman in his bed, but do they fix this night according to some signs? Position of the moon, or order of the Religion? It is strange how the Court servants talk about : "It is chalvet tonight"
And I still do not understand how the Hasontabasis-Ibrahim, Man non castrated walks inside the Palace, and can meet Hatitze Sultan, and talk to her, without being covered.

[Bonbon]

Originally Posted by fandesacs2003

Thanks Warren for this information. Ottoman Court protokol looks very complicated. I read somewher that the term "Padishad" comes from farsi language, and it is superior to the term of Sultan, its includes also the title of Chaliph, a kind of supreme combination of Political+religious power.
Bonbon what exact means the term of chalvet?? They do not translate it in the greek subtitles of the Syleyman serie. I understand that it means the night when the Sultan will have a woman in his bed, but do they fix this night according to some signs? Position of the moon, or order of the Religion? It is strange how the Court servants talk about : "It is chalvet tonight"
And I still do not understand how the Hasontabasis-Ibrahim, Man non castrated walks inside the Palace, and can meet Hatitze Sultan, and talk to her, without being covered.

Hi
First of al Caliph is a religious title and on 3 May 1934 this title is abrogated. Caliph was equivalent of Pope, but for Muslims of course and Ottoman dynasty held this title during 1934. At the present day there is no Caliph.

Chalvet (halvet in Turkish) literally means solitude but in that serie and of course in court it means Sultan will spend the night with a concubine. In other words he will spend the night alone with a woman. It is not arranged according to signs or lunar calender. It can be arranged according to Padishah's or head of Harem's wishes, in this case mother of the reigning sultan (Valide Sultan).

İbrahim has some privilages for being grand vizier but women in palace can talk to men (not all men of course men in court) without being covered because these women are Padishah's Harem and no men can do anything to these women. They can't dare it. Hatice is also living in Harem and she is the sister of Padishah. You will see Hürrem will talk to other men without covered too because she is in favour of Padishah. Women were not wearing hijab, it's not Ottoman culture, it's Arabic culture. Women were never so conservative in Ottoman Empire period. They just put a relatively conservative headscarf outside their homes.

[fandesacs2003]

Originally Posted by Bonbon

Hi
First of al Caliph is a religious title and on 3 May 1934 this title is abrogated. Caliph was equivalent of Pope, but for Muslims of course and Ottoman dynasty held this title during 1934. At the present day there is no Caliph.

Chalvet (halvet in Turkish) literally means solitude but in that serie and of course in court it means Sultan will spend the night with a concubine. In other words he will spend the night alone with a woman. It is not arranged according to signs or lunar calender. It can be arranged according to Padishah's or head of Harem's wishes, in this case mother of the reigning sultan (Valide Sultan).

İbrahim has some privilages for being grand vizier but women in palace can talk to men (not all men of course men in court) without being covered because these women are Padishah's Harem and no men can do anything to these women. They can't dare it. Hatice is also living in Harem and she is the sister of Padishah. You will see Hürrem will talk to other men without covered too because she is in favour of Padishah. Women were not wearing hijab, it's not Ottoman culture, it's Arabic culture. Women were never so conservative in Ottoman Empire period. They just put a relatively conservative headscarf outside their homes.

Fascinating information, thanks soo much neighbour.
It is very interesting to see how all these uses and habits have been established, and how it should be difficult to manage such a place like Padishah's palace. It should be a very crowed place, and should be necessary to strictly follow all rules.

PS. Can't wait to see how will take place the "connection" between Ibrahim and Hatzitze... as apparently both parties are terrified. (presume that it is unthinkable to look at Sultan's sister.... and as the only person who know the attraction, i.e. Hurrem, wants to sabote it.

[Bonbon]

Originally Posted by fandesacs2003

Fascinating information, thanks soo much neighbour.
It is very interesting to see how all these uses and habits have been established, and how it should be difficult to manage such a place like Padishah's palace. It should be a very crowed place, and should be necessary to strictly follow all rules.

PS. Can't wait to see how will take place the "connection" between Ibrahim and Hatzitze... as apparently both parties are terrified. (presume that it is unthinkable to look at Sultan's sister.... and as the only person who know the attraction, i.e. Hurrem, wants to sabote it.

Anytime
Yes it was a crowded place, concubines, members of family, eunuches, cooks and staff... During Ottoman Empire period these rules and customs are generally followed but in such exceptional periods, like Hürrem's period, some rules were broken. You will watch them on the serie.

Between İbrahim and Hatice (Hatzitze) it will be difficult but at the end all will settle

[Bonbon]

fandesacs2003 I've found something for you and I'm sure you will enjoy watching it. Via this link you can watch the Hürrem's Turkish bath that Suleyman built for Hürrem, not with his bare hands of course he ordered the construction

Mimar Sinan is the architect of the building and it was built between 1556 – 1557. It was active since 1910 and closed. Then couple of years ago it has been restorated for 7.271.238 euros. Now it's open to public use. You can watch the inside of it and read about its history.

To watch inside;

Turkish Bath

To read info; Ayasofya Hamamı

[fandesacs2003]

Hello to eveyone
Again to Soleiman the magnificent, and the relative Turkish TV serie. It is not said at the TV serie, but I've read that the use into each Sultan's family was that when the Sultan died and hs first son became Sultan, all his other brothers were executed. It is crazy to grow up, knowing that, because you are not the first boy, you might die young. Did it happen always like this??
Did Suleiman had brothers??? In the serie they talk only about the sister Hacice, not for any other siblings.
It is funny to think that a Sultan with so many women at his disposal, had only 2 kids!!
And I did not find anywhere, if Suleiman had other kids than with Machidevran and Hurrem, so maybe Hurrem succeded to make him not to see other women.

[Bonbon]

Originally Posted by fandesacs2003

Hello to eveyone
Again to Soleiman the magnificent, and the relative Turkish TV serie. It is not said at the TV serie, but I've read that the use into each Sultan's family was that when the Sultan died and hs first son became Sultan, all his other brothers were executed. It is crazy to grow up, knowing that, because you are not the first boy, you might die young. Did it happen always like this??
Did Suleiman had brothers??? In the serie they talk only about the sister Hacice, not for any other siblings.
It is funny to think that a Sultan with so many women at his disposal, had only 2 kids!!
And I did not find anywhere, if Suleiman had other kids than with Machidevran and Hurrem, so maybe Hurrem succeded to make him not to see other women.

Hi
It's an accurate hearsay and it was an act to protect the Empire. It prevented wars between sons and eventually a civil war but it was not particularly the first son killed the others. The minor brother could kill the first heir. It depended on his power. It wasn't like this in the beginning but as the Empire expended it came to that point. And yes they knew only one of their brothers would survive, they brought up knowing this fact.

Another info; the heir can only have the other siblings and brothers choked to death. He can not kill him/her with sword, knife or gun. The blood of the Ottoman Dynasty can not be spilled.

Suleyman had 6 siblings, no brothers. So he was kind of lucky. On the other hand he killed his uncle's son Murat and Murat's son in Rhodes. He had her son, Mustafa choked to death. In other words he killed his first born son and the heir to the throne. He had 4 sons and a daughter with Hurrem. These sons fought and finally Suleyman's 4th son Selim (his son with Hurrem) became Sultan.

He had a son with Gulfem. His name was Murat.(Died.)
A son with Ful-Dane. His name was Mahmut. (Also died.)
Suleyman had a son with Mahidevran. His name was Mustafa. (The one Suleyman killed.)
He had Mehmet, Beyazıt, Selim, Cihangir and Mihrimah with Hurrem.
He may had sons and daughters from other concubines but they are not in records.

[fandesacs2003]

Thanks bonbon, you are a precious source!!
I watched the engagement ceremony, very interesting to see the mentality of this era. The ceremony took place on two separate rooms, one only for females, the other only for men. The couple to wed, did not meet. The only male who has been admitted into the women's room, was of course the Sultan. The funny think is that the two young persons can easily meet and talk inside the harem, but for the the engagement, they have to be separate.

[sancakli70]

Princess Nilhan osmanoglu(25) one of th 14 living princesses of the ex-ottoman empire marriages in the beylerbeyi palace last week with mehmet behlül vatansever. Abdülhamid'in torunu evlendi - Sabah - 23 Eylül 2012
photo gallery
Abdülhamid'in torunu evlendi - Sayfa 1 - Sabah - Galeri - Ya

[fandesacs2003]

A nice site about all the Osmanli Sultans. OTTOMAN WEB SITE - FORSNET

I can not judge how exact are information, but it is nice to quickly find what we are looking for.

For ex. Sultan Mahmoud II had 11 sons and 13 daughters. It is not said with how many mothers!!!

[Bonbon]

Originally Posted by fandesacs2003

Thanks bonbon, you are a precious source!!
I watched the engagement ceremony, very interesting to see the mentality of this era. The ceremony took place on two separate rooms, one only for females, the other only for men. The couple to wed, did not meet. The only male who has been admitted into the women's room, was of course the Sultan. The funny think is that the two young persons can easily meet and talk inside the harem, but for the the engagement, they have to be separate.

You're welcome & thanks
Well that seperation thing is religious, women were being seperated from men according to Islamic laws. Today it's not an applicable law/custom but at old times it was the only way to engage or to wed couples.