The Balkan Monarchies: Restoration and Restitution


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espejor

Aristocracy
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Hello! What do you think about an eventually restoration in Balkans?

I have heard that Serbia is the most probably to be again a Monarchy.

I have heard too that Romania has possibilities too.

What do you think about that?

Regards!
 
Personally I think it is too late. There were strong possibilities after the fall of communism but for various reasons they were missed. Serbia I think is the most likely, Alexander is the one making the most effort at doing so. Bulgarias King has now been tarnished and I think the Romanian family made a mistake when the Kings son in law decided to stand for election.
 
Well, without getting too political, I think Bulgaria will remember the reasons they supported Simeon before he became prime minister and forget recent history soon enough, now they are established in the EU. Their royal family (Boris III's memory in particular) is quite beloved, even if it is a newer house, in the scheme of things.
 
Royal Property Restitution in the countries of S-E Europe

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I am based in Bucharest and closely follow the news in the region. Many articles pertaining to the royal properties, published over the last few months since the economic crisis has started to bite in south east Europe, indicate that in Bulgaria and Romania the state tries to claw back the royal properties, which were reinstated to the former sovereigns as part of the democratisation process of the last two decades that led to the EU membership. There was an apparent goodwill period from the governments of these Balkan countries toward their respective royal families that lasted until 2008, which looks now more like a ploy to gain trust from the western countries in order for the local elites to fulfil their aspirations in gaining membership in western organisations. Now, as the EU/ NATO etc. membership has been achieved, the Romanian and Bulgarian governing elites do not need their royal families on their side anymore. The crisis also has dramatically reduced the important wealth amassed over the last two decades by the top echelons of the Romanian and Bulgarian society, which have now started to prey on whatever is close to hand to recoup some of their rapidly eroding fortunes. The royal properties are some of the most obvious targets, as these elites, originating in the old communist apparatchiks, have a long anti-royalist tradition. The future looks uncertain, as the Romanian and Bulgarian governing upper classes do not need anymore their royals in the pursuit of their short or long term objectives.
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Albanian royal property restoration.

In Albania some property restoration has been made to the late HM King Leka in Tirana (former villa palace of HH Princess Senije Abid Zogu) and in Durres (former summer palace of HM King Zog).
The Tirana Palace is now The Royal Court of Albania and official residence of HRH Crown Prince Leka II Zogu.
The Durres summer palace is in semi-derelict state of disrepair, awaiting future restoration.
Crown Prince Leka II Zogu now works as an official advisor with the Albanian Government, and has been in several ministerial Departments.
Other relatives of the extended Zogu Family living abroad since their original exile are awaiting process of other property restoration cases and claims, houses and estates of pre-1939 family ownerships.
Some exiled relatives have chosen not to make claims on old family properties.
Ruhije - UK
 
Do any of you know if Bosnia and Croatia have any history of monarchies of there own? Not foreign ones.
 
Balkan Royals

Benedict XVI said:
Do any of you know if Bosnia and Croatia have any history of monarchies of there own? Not foreign ones.
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Only that Bosnia had some kind of ancient or medieval Nobilities or Kingdoms.
Then later ruled by the Turkish Ottoman Empire.
In recent and modern times Croatia (and Bosnia too) was either ruled as part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and then as part of Yugoslavia under the Serbian Dynasty.
 
Romania, Serbia and Montenegro are the countries where Monarchy has real chances to be restored soon.
 
Restoration?

Cory said:
Romania, Serbia and Montenegro are the countries where Monarchy has real chances to be restored soon.
Click to expand...

Yes, with Montenegro looking like the strongest candidate with much more official Government acknowledgment and restitution and diplomatic status and position.

Albania has also gone quite far in the restitution, honour, and diplomatic status and role of The Zogu Royal family and Crown Prince Leka II.

There is a good topical link discussion ongoing to this subject in the Royal Forums General Discussion section - Monarchies most likely to be Restored - thread.
 
Ruhije said:
Only that Bosnia had some kind of ancient or medieval Nobilities or Kingdoms.
Then later ruled by the Turkish Ottoman Empire.
In recent and modern times Croatia (and Bosnia too) was either ruled as part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and then as part of Yugoslavia under the Serbian Dynasty.
Click to expand...

The last young king of Bosnia was executed in 1463, his wife ended up in a Turkish harem, his younger siblings were taken from their mother (his step-mother) a princess of Hercegovina, along with her younger brother, to Turkey and raised muslim by Ottoman royals. The heirs to both Bosnia and Hercegovina became beys (lords) in the Ottoman empire and married Turkish princesses and had issue. There ends the story.

It is possible that since beys like nobles might keep good geneology that an heir could be figured out and make a claim. Zog made a successful claim for Albania 460 years later, although he was still a noble within Albania. However the family may have never returned to Bosnia and 548 years in Turkey, not so much Bosnian anymore. It depends on who it is, where they are, and whether they even know they are the heir.
 
The last king of Croatia died in 1090 without living issue or at least male living issue (daughter's fate unknown), and then his wife ruled for a year before giving the country to her brother the king of hungary. This led to war and instability with the Croatian royals who rallied under a local Knin royal (imagine german royals trying to replace an extinct Prussian empire with another german king instead of foreign rule). Why Knin? - unknown but he may have just been the most powerful local royal or may have been related to the Croatian king. Croatia was made up at the time of a bunch of smaller kingdoms and they eventually agreed to make Croatia a kingdom within Hungary with their kingdoms intact and recognized, and a rotating royal ban (governor) from their royal membership as ruler.

Eventually Hungary and Croatia both became part of the Austrian empire and lost much control to Austria and the expanding Ottoman empire with many royals losing wealth and property. The Croatian ban Zrinski (Subic), his brother-in-law Frankopan (Krck), son-in-law Rakoczi of Transylvania, and other Croatian/Hungarian royals/nobles plotted rebellion to free all of Croatia and Hungary but failed and were executed in 1671. The two families had controlled most of Croatia but at the time had left 35% of Croatia that was unconquered - the other royals' land had been had previously conquered. Both families trace back as local royals to the time of the last king of Croatia. After the rebellion, Croatian bans were mostly foreign. When Croatia became free the Zrinskis/Frankopans had their bones returned to Croatia and all are held in great esteem. If Croatia was to pick a monarch, I expect it would come from these royal families.

The Rakoczis line survives but not in Croatia as far as i know. A Zrinski fled to greece and his descendants have returned to Croatia.

Count Louis Doemi de Lupis, who founded the Croatian noble association claims descent from the Frankopans and Subic/Zrinskis from the 15th century and added Frankopan to his family name. It is allegedly recognized by Italy, but not by Croatia, the Croatian noble association and led to his exit from them. When his daughter Paola married a member of the extended British royal family Lord Nicholas Windsor - Frankopan was left off the engagement notice and invitations. If it is legit, it may not be the best claim (greek returnees? or another) - hence the rift with the nobility association.

However, as far as I know neither Louis, the greek returnees, or anyone else has made a claim as heir - they just like to point out their interesting royal ancestors.

Not an expert - feel free to corect me.
 
The albanian Crown Prince does not speak about the return of Monarchy and neither does Prince Nicholas of Montenegro.
 
Balkan Restoration or Restitution.

Cory said:
The albanian Crown Prince does not speak about the return of Monarchy and neither does Prince Nicholas of Montenegro.
Click to expand...

The various levels of restitution that the returning Balkan Royals have received from the Governments has created a middle-ground situation of half-way or compromise official and diplomatic status, with property restitution and often official roles for the Royals.
This somewhat satisfies for many (Royalists and Monarchists included) a balance between Restitution and Restoration.
I have posted much more on this regarding the Zogu Royal family of Albania, in the two Albanian threads section.
 
Cory said:
The albanian Crown Prince does not speak about the return of Monarchy and neither does Prince Nicholas of Montenegro.
Click to expand...

I find this to be an interesting fact as I have always thought that the Romanian, Serbian, and Bulgarian families were not alone in working with their homelands and hoping for a restoration. Interesting indeed.
 
Question regarding Princes of Wallachia and Moldavia

Good evening everyone, my question is if anyone knows the names of those members from Mano family of Greece that were Princes of Moldavia and Wallachia during the Ottoman occupation of the Balkans.

Mano family at the time was one of the strongest Phanariot families of Constantinople with many members sent to the Principalities to serve us overlords.

Kind Regards

Alexander
 
No member of this Greek family reigned in the Romanian Principalities.
 
Thank you for your imminent reply... besides the Royal marriages of the 20th century do you know any previous titles of nobility held by the family ?

Thank you for your time

Kind Regards
Alexandros
 
Alexandros Hellas said:
Good evening everyone, my question is if anyone knows the names of those members from Mano family of Greece that were Princes of Moldavia and Wallachia during the Ottoman occupation of the Balkans.

Mano family at the time was one of the strongest Phanariot families of Constantinople with many members sent to the Principalities to serve us overlords.
Click to expand...

On wikipedia it says Ileana Manos, wife of Prince Charles of Orleans, is descended from the Bogdan-Mushat family who once ruled Moldavia, and the Sutzu Phanariot that ruled Wallachia. The Manos are also descended from other notable families from those regions: Callimachi, Racovitza, Cantacuzino, Ghika, and the greek Mavrocordatos family whose did have influence in the area. Maybe that is the confusion, they are descended from Princes of Moldavia and Wallachia just not ones named Manos.
 
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Ceallach said:
On wikipedia it says Ileana Manos, wife of Prince Charles of Orleans, is descended from the Bogdan-Mushat family who once ruled Moldavia, and the Sutzu Phanariot that ruled Wallachia. The Manos are also descended from other notable families from those regions: Callimachi, Racovitza, Cantacuzino, Ghika, and the greek Mavrocordatos family whose did have influence in the area. Maybe that is the confusion, they are descended from Princes of Moldavia and Wallachia just not ones named Manos.
Click to expand...


Is she related to the mother of HM Queen Alexandra of Yugoslavia?
 
USCtrojan said:
Is she related to the mother of HM Queen Alexandra of Yugoslavia?
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Yes, she is.
Queen Alexandra descends from Aspasia Manou, daughter of Petros Manos, and Ileana is the daughter of Kostantinos Manos, himself grandson of Kostantinos Manos, brother of Petros.
In two words, Ileana's father and late Queen Alexandra of Serbia, were second cousins.
Ileana is 3rd cousin with CP Alexander.
 
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Greetings..... to be honest i believe the wikipedia information is total rubbish.... The relations of House Mano to other Phanariot families was not of the same level...Mano/Manu/Manos family was allot older and more powerful than the Roseti, Mavrocordatos, Ghyka, Callimachi and Soutso/Sutzo,Sutso, the family dose not have direct marriages with Cantacuzene/Cantacuzenos Imperial House of Byzantium, that relation derives from Soutsos family marrying to one of the daughters of Cantacuzenos brunch in Wallachia.

Sources, Libro D' Oro, Grand Famille de Greece, Albanie et Constantinopole, Ghyka.org

Wikipedia info should not be taken into account, it has the families starting partiarch being George Mano dated in 1570 while the House first came to be in 10th century Genoa.... of course i agree that the Principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia where not directly ruled by Manos members...

Kind Regards
Alexandros
 
The book written by Sturdza, "Grandes familles de Grèce ..." is a great guide.
For royal genealogy you can always refer to www.genealogics.org
 
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Greetings

Yes indeed you are correct it is an amazing book, my family has 3 of them !!!
to be honest though genealogics.org confuses me lol

Kind Regards
Alexandros
 
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Genealogics is a very good site, since you get used on it.
You can even find the parent bonds between 2 royals.
 
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Yes, House of Manos has made 3 Royal marriages in the 20th century. First was Princess Aspasia Manu that married King Alexandros of Greece and her daughter Princess Alexandra that married Petros of Yugoslavia, last one was the marriage of Ileana Manu (3rd niece of Princess Alexandra) to the Dolphin de France Charle Louis D' Orlean.
 
Some posts have been removed.
A reminder that posts should be in English, and personal conversations are best conducted via PM.

thanks :)

Warren
Non-Reigning Houses moderator
 
If a restoration were possible in say Romania or Serbia, would the possibility of becoming part of the EU, or once they are part of the EU, cause problems and can the idea completely?
 
USCtrojan said:
If a restoration were possible in say Romania or Serbia, would the possibility of becoming part of the EU, or once they are part of the EU, cause problems and can the idea completely?
Click to expand...

I don't see why it would as there are several countries with monarchies which are part of the EU already.
 
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