Talaith Aberffraw - the Royal House of Gwynedd and Wales

[Keystone]

“Have you an attachment to Wales, family or something?”


Or, something. The Llewellyn’s, my family, migrated from Wales to Pennsylvania sometime in the early to mid 19th century, and from there to East Tennessee around the 1870s. After learning of our Welsh roots, I have to say it is somewhat disappointing to know that Wales was conquered, and that forms the basis for it’s inclusion in the UK monarchy.



“How does this descendant feel about possible being a King? “

There are at least two possible candidates documented as descendents according to Burkes Peerage, one of which is mentioned above. I tend to favor the Anwyl line myself.

I do not know how the two feel about possibly being king. With the Statues of Rhuddlan, the instrument of abject surrender for the Welsh (if you will) abolished all native honors and dignities of the Welsh. If the heirs of the Aberffraw legacy did not denounce their claims to the throne they would be imprisoned for life, as was the sons of Dafydd III.

A hypothetical if you will: The effect of the Statue of Rhuddlan abolishing the Welsh monarchy would be similar to if the Soviet Union somehow successfully occupied England and abolished the UK monarchy. Would any of George VI’s descendents have a claim to the abolished English monarchy under such a circumstance? Even though the Soviet Socialist Republic of England was incorporated into some wider Soviet Empire, and the Windsor family were rooted out of England or forced to surrender their claims. Would their heirs have claim then?

Are there any percentages that show Wales wants its own Monarchy or doesn't like HM and the royal family?

I do not think the question about restoring a Welsh monarchy has been asked in the form of a poll as yet. But it has been talked about in nationalist circles. As noted above, influential Plaid Cymru essayist Dr. DJ. Davies addressed the issue in his work “Wales Must Have A Monarchy”, in which he advocated the independence of Wales with the restoration of a native Welsh dynasty to the throne of Wales, and suggested the Rice/Rhys family of Dinefwr (the Dinefwr family were dynastically junior to the Aberffraw claims, thus junior to the Anwyl family). Davies was once himself a staunch republican but came to believe in the ideas of constitutional monarchy in the Danish tradition. And as recently as this past decade the issue was brought up in Cambria magazine article “Why Not a Welsh Royal Family”.

As the Welsh rediscover their own royal past of its own royal family, I am sure interest will continue to rise.



David Llewellyn

[Kasumi]

Rhys ap Gruffudd: the medieval warrior-prince (1131-1197)
Rhys ap Thomas: Soldier, knight, landowner, king-maker (1448-1525)

Coat of arms of Dinefwr

[ChristopherWales]

We Welsh people are bit confused. Which Royal family should we restore to the throne of all Wales? We belonged to different tribes/clans. Mine was the Silures. The Bretons and Cornish peoples are also descended from the Silures of South Wales and what is now West of England. Even after Roman times The Kings of Glamorgan and Gwent still used the title of Cheif of the Silures. As used by Iestyn - ap - Gwrgan who was the last King/Prince of Glamorgan and Gwent (Southeast Wales)

I am something like a great grandson 25 times removed from Iestyn - ap - Gwrgan. Other people who are more noteworthy than myself and are also descended from Iestyn are Oliver Cromwell Diana Spencer and George Bush and Winston Churchill

[Midwestern Mom]

Weren't the Llewellens the last main rulers of Wales? I know it wasn't totally cohesive but I thought they were the ones who were most often in conflict with England.


MM

[ChristopherWales]

The Welsh were split into different family groups who lived indifferent areas of Wales. Glamorgan and Gwent for example were ruled by the descendants of the Kings of the Silures. A tribe that were never conquered by the Romans. These Kings were also the Old High Kings of the Britons. Not to be confused with and English king or queen. Llywelyn came from a junior branch of this family. So the Williams family of South Wales might also claim to be the rightful rulers of Wales and perhaps the whole of Britain. The Tudors are also related to the same family. King Henry the VII,VIII and Elizabeth the 1st and the Scottish royal house of Stewart are also related to former royal family of Southeast Wales. As is HRH Queen Elizabeth The Second. God Bless her and long may she live.

To go back to the subject of Welsh Royal House's none of them ruled the whole of Wales. They might have become the High Prince or King but they never replaced the local ruler. It is also worth remembering you could only live in a certain part of Wales if you had your families permission to live there. And who was the head of the family? Your local Prince/ruler. Life back then was really complicated.

[Midwestern Mom]

I think the Scots had a similar system, their Clans. I've always gotten the impression that the Welsh system was a bit more strung out but that could just be misunderstanding on my part.

As far as the Jacobites are concerned there is a rightful ruler of Scotland living and it's not QEII....do some Welsh have a similar view about their country?


MM

[ChristopherWales]

Most of us Welsh Cymraig are pro Queen Elizabeth however, we are not too keen on Prince Charles and indeed he does not seem too keen about us. We tend to worry more about our international rugby team than the Prince of Wales. If Wales were to become independent from England I think we would become a republic or even keep the Windsors Queen Elizabeth and company. It is also worth mentioning that the currant Prince of Wales does not hold any power or any official office in Wales and is the Prince of Wales simply by his mother's bequest. HRH Queen Elizabeth II remains Queen of Wales because she is the Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and other realms.

[Domhangairt]

Prince Charles can only claim the title "Prince of Wales" in terms of the English Statute of Ruddhlan, 1284. This is not recognized under native Welsh law. The Welsh Principality of Gwynedd is arguably the most senior- the only Princes of a briefly united Principality of Wales were from this line, also known as the House of Aberffraw. The Welsh principalities could only pass through the male line with legitimate sons taking precedence over illegitimate sons. The last Welsh Prince Dafydd III was of an illegitimate line.

The only serious claimants today are Evan Anwyl of Tywyn (I have actually spoken to him), and his son Daffyd, and two cousins, one Roger Anwyl, who is a professor at Trinity College in Dublin, Ireland, and the other Phillip Anwyl who lives in Sussex, England. Daffyd is married to Caroline Owen of Nantwich. They have a daughter, Carys Anne Anwyl, born in 2008. Daffyd and his family live in Birmingham, or Manchester. The Anwyl family claim descent in the male line from Rhodri II Ap Owain, Prince of Gwynedd 1170-90, uncle of Llewellyn II "the Great", Prince of All Wales 1216-1240, and Prince of Gwynedd from 1195. Llewellyn was the grandfather of Dafydd III, the last prince who was brutally executed by England's King Edward Plantagenet.

Recently, David Wolcott (see www.ancientwalesstudies.org) has challenged the Anwyll family's descent, but Wolcott's arguments have not been independently supported, or verified, so Evan Anwyl's claim still stands. Ultimately, Y-DNA tests will resolve this debate.

Most Welsh respect the Queen, but the same respect does not necessarily extend to her son Charles. The native Welsh royals stand quite a good chance of being restored, if Wales broke away from England. The republican camp in Wales is small, even among Plaid Cymru.
.

[ChristopherWales]

Ask most people living in South Wales. "Where is Gwynedd"? Their reply will be. "I do not have a clue"? Even though Wales is a very small country with only 3 million people living here. It still takes 4 to 5 hours to drive from the south to the north of my beloved country.

Most people living in South Wales know more about the country and peoples and history of South Africa than they do of North Wales. Whilst most Welsh speakers living in Gwynedd call any non Welsh speaker living in Wales "English" regardless of where they were born.

The Welsh language which is spoken in South Wales is different to North Welsh in many ways some people think it could almost be a different language which happens to closely related to each other such as Cornish and Breton.

Queen Elizabeth is actually a blood descendant of all the former Princely families of Wales as was Diana Princess of Wales through her Spencer/Churchill family. So it could be very difficult proving that Queen Elizabeth does not have the right to rule over Wales.

[ChristopherWales]

Most people living in South Wales Support The Labour Party (socialist) and I doubt they would want to set up a Welsh monarchy to replace the queen. If Wales were to become independent tomorrow we would not worry about who should be the rightful ruler of Wales.

The things we would worry about are:
Education
Health Care
Jobs
Transport
Rugby football

Most Welsh people respect the queen and would not consider replacing her until after her death and may that day be a very long way away still. It is true that Prince Charles is not very popular here. Nobody should forget the Prince William affect and it has not gone unnoticed the fact that he is now living with his wife in an ordinary house on the Isle of Angleysea or Ynys Mon whilst he serving in the RAF.

So the question must still remain who or which family can really claim to be the rightful rulers of Wales?

[James Frankcom]

The first interview with Evan Vaughan Anwyl (Prince Ieuan) can be found in the Summer 2011 edition of Cambria Magazine. There is a link here: Cambria Magazine Summer 2011 and the article by award winning writer Byron Rogers can be read on pages 30 & 31.

[Nice Nofret]

I find it *interesting* that people who live in america since generations identify themselves as "welsh" and are for "welsh"independence from GB; is it that they, as americans cannot bear the idea of being *coloniesed* ...

what would you Americans think of discussing to break up the US and reinstall all the indian tribes, and their right to their country? - Whites colonising America isn't as far away as 12something and this Ruddland-thing.

So yes - what a great idea - give america back to the indians, Alsaska to the Eskimos / Inuit, Australia to the Aboriginies, South Africa to the blacks, and Europe to the Neandertaler (oh wait .. they are no more Neandertaler ... bother...)

[Deheubarth]

There are many flaws to most of what has been posted so far on this site, too much to provide a full response to, but here is some food for thought:

1. The only Welshman to have ruled the whole of Wales was Gruffudd ap Llywelyn in the 11th century, until his defeat by Harold Godwinson. No all-Wales Welsh monarchy has existed since that time, and Gruffudd's claim was not even recognised by all in Wales at the time. Not even Rhodri Mawr ruled all of Wales.

2. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, grandfather of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd changed his style from "Prince of Gwynedd" (he did not use the title of King) to "Prince of Aberffraw and Lord of Snowdon". So, these titles cannot be claimed by anyone who descended from the elder Llywelyn's grandfather Owain Gwynedd, Prince of Gwynedd.

3. Gwynedd made claims to the entirety of Wales and wanted to get the King of England to confirm its right to the homage of the rest of Wales. It could be argued that by putting this argument, the two Llywelyn's thereby operated as if the feudal system of England and almost all of the rest of Europe was valid in Wales.

4. Another ancient kingdom, that of Powys did not agree with Gwynedd's claims and only accepted them under duress - whenever the opportunity existed Powys Wenwynwyn seized back its control and claim to its ancient patrimony.

5. Deheubarth, under its Prince The Lord Rhys, did homage to King Henry on more than one occasion. Rhys took with him his relations the Princes of Maelienydd and Elfael (the family of Elystan Glodrydd). At that time, this therefore signified that they accepted him as their higher Lord and not the Prince of Gwynedd or that of Powys.

6. The Anwyl family are not the only descendants in a direct male line of one of the sons of Owain Gwynedd - in fact descendants exist from an elder son than the one the Anwyl's descend from.

7. The Tudor King Henry VII is descended from a marriage between the Tudors and a daughter of The Lord Rhys and his wife Elizabeth of York is descended from one of the daughters of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth. As Henry made his way across Wales gathering troops as he went to win his victory and the crown at Bosworth, Wales backed him pretty much to the hilt and saw in him the recovery of the throne of Britain - the "Island of the Mighty" / of the Britons. His triumph was seen as a turning over of the Edwardian conquest, whatever his son then did as part of the merging of Wales with England. He may have been anglicised, but he was a combination of ancient Welsh royal lines. With him many Welsh flocked to London and a new 'British' monarchy was established -to this day it is possible that more people of Welsh descent live in England than Wales.

Thus it is that HM Queen Elizabeth II has the blood of many Welsh Princes and Kings in her, no matter how un-welsh she may appear - the point is that she is the embodiment of the unity of the Kingdom.

8. Owain Glyn Dwr was a scion of the dynasty of Powys, but through marriage (exactly like Henry VII) was also descended from the house of Gwynedd and Deheubarth.

9. If the Princes of Gwynedd had survivors who never lost their titles, then they would have married into many different families over the intervening centuries, and they would (as both Llywelyns did in the past) have adapted the rules or protocols of succession and even have accepted the succession of daughters. The 'nationality' and identity of their heirs would be likely to have become more broadly 'British' than narrowly Welsh.......just as the descendants of the Tudors have.

10. How can Welsh law on succession to a princedom have survived? History shows that the princely families did not follow strict protocols, but operated more of a "Its a knock-out" methodology for succession - he who could knock out his competitors, be they older of younger brothers, cousins or other, would win the crown.

11. Lastly, is it much better to accept Prince Charles and appreciate all that he has done....more than any Prince of Wales since the Edwardian period....to try and do the very best he can to serve Wales; he speaks good Welsh, has the blood of most of the old Royal Dynasties of Wales in his veins. he also has a very fine son who has started his married life not far from his ancestors' Court at Aberffraw on Angelsea.

Surely the very best hope for any sort of restoration of old Welsh Princely titles would be via the current Principality and Prince of Wales; the institution of a Prince of Wales could act as a 'hub' around which older titles and structures could be built up again - Princes of Gwynedd, Deheubarth, Powys, Maelienydd, Elfael and Lords of Merionydd, Senghenydd, Gwerthrynion etc etc.

But there is an obvious and very great problem with this. Who would have a claim that could stand up against challenge - the genealogies do not all agree, as Peter Bartrum showed so clearly in his work. Who is the eldest? If we find the eldest, will that person be suitable to take up an ancient title so long after it was last claimed? And if the eldest isn't suitable, do we give the title to another member of the family, just as the medieval Princes did? And if we did that, would that be according to Welsh law etc.

We cannot bring back Llywelyn ap Gruffudd. It is time to look ahead positively instead of constantly "Worrying the carcase of an old song", as RS Thomas wrote in that well known poem. Rather, we should celebrate the vibrant living bodies that we have around us and stop mourning the past but celebrate the present and what it heralds for the future. We have great history to enjoy and take forward, but should do so joyfully and without regret. 'Wales' is a geographic country and nation, but it is also an identity that stretched well beyond the borders of the Wales on the map, and belongs in the hearts of more millions outside Wales than in. So pride in Wales and its nationalism should be outward looking not stop at the border with England.

I'm sure many may have more to say about this, but for now, if you do not know the poem mentioned above, here it is...in all its prophetic glory - ponder on it and catch its good advice:

Welsh Landscape
by R.S. Thomas

To live in Wales is to be conscious
At dusk of the spilled blood
That went into the making of the wild sky,
Dyeing the immaculate rivers
In all their courses.
It is to be aware,
Above the noisy tractor
And hum of the machine
Of strife in the strung woods,
Vibrant with sped arrows.
You cannot live in the present,
At least not in Wales.
There is the language for instance,
The soft consonants
Strange to the ear.
There are cries in the dark at night
As owls answer the moon,
And thick ambush of shadows,
Hushed at the fields' corners.
There is no present in Wales,
And no future;
There is only the past,
Brittle with relics,
Wind-bitten towers and castles
With sham ghosts;
Mouldering quarries and mines;
And an impotent people,
Sick with inbreeding,
Worrying the carcase of an old song.

[Deheubarth]

Originally Posted by Domhangairt

Prince Charles can only claim the title "Prince of Wales" in terms of the English Statute of Ruddhlan, 1284. This is not recognized under native Welsh law. The Welsh Principality of Gwynedd is arguably the most senior- the only Princes of a briefly united Principality of Wales were from this line, also known as the House of Aberffraw. The Welsh principalities could only pass through the male line with legitimate sons taking precedence over illegitimate sons. The last Welsh Prince Dafydd III was of an illegitimate line. The only serious claimants today are Evan Anwyl of Tywyn (I have actually spoken to him), and his son Daffyd, and two cousins, one Roger Anwyl, who is a professor at Trinity College in Dublin, Ireland, and the other Phillip Anwyl who lives in Sussex, England. Daffyd is married to Caroline Owen of Nantwich. They have a daughter, Carys Anne Anwyl, born in 2008. Daffyd and his family live in Birmingham, or Manchester. The Anwyl family claim descent in the male line from Rhodri II Ap Owain, Prince of Gwynedd 1170-90, uncle of Llewellyn II "the Great", Prince of All Wales 1216-1240, and Prince of Gwynedd from 1195. Llewellyn was the grandfather of Dafydd III, the last prince who was brutally executed by England's King Edward Plantagenet.

Recently, David Wolcott (see www.ancientwalesstudies.org) has challenged the Anwyll family's descent, but Wolcott's arguments have not been independently supported, or verified, so Evan Anwyl's claim still stands. Ultimately, Y-DNA tests will resolve this debate.

Most Welsh respect the Queen, but the same respect does not necessarily extend to her son Charles. The native Welsh royals stand quite a good chance of being restored, if Wales broke away from England. The republican camp in Wales is small, even among Plaid Cymri.

With reference to Domhangairt's words above: "This is not recognized under native Welsh law"

Llywelyn ab Iorwerth inherited only after Welsh law was ignored and Owain Gwynedd's eldest son killed by his brothers and his progeny thereby disinherited. Llywelyn then failed to follow 'Welsh law' when organising his succession when by-passing his 'bastard' son Gruffudd in preference for Dafydd, who was his son by Llywelyn's wife. The problem here is that Dafydd's mother was the illegitimate daughter of King John of England, so it seemed there was a bit of ironic method to inheritance in Gwynedd at the time.

Note re "www.ancientwalesstudies.org" - some of its arguments are backed up by sources that are far less able to be relied on than the magnificent work of Peter Bartrum, which was never expected to be 'gospel' truth, but a recording and combination of the various genealogical sources that he pulled together - no-one has ever come close to matching the monumental scale of Bartrum's work and Ancient Welsh Studies are far too quick to criticise him.

[mdavy]

In regard to the post;

6. The Anwyl family are not the only descendants in a direct male line of one of the sons of Owain Gwynedd

Yes i have been told that a line male descendants of Dafydd ap Owain Gwynedd d1203 (deposed by Llywelyn) are alive and well today. I don't know anything about Welsh law, but it would seem that they may have a claim?

[Domhangairt]

I sincerely hope there IS another male line descended from the Gwynedd princes, since the Anwyl family is facing extinction in the male line. The latest heirs are all female.

[Richardhwinn]

Does anyone have any additional information concerning Evan Vaughan Anwyl of Ty-Mawr, like when did he inherit his claim, spouse and descendants and their spouses?

[Domhangairt]

Originally Posted by Richardhwinn

Does anyone have any additional information concerning Evan Vaughan Anwyl of Ty-Mawr, like when did he inherit his claim, spouse and descendants and their spouses?

Hi Richardhwinn. I have personally spoken to Evan Anwyl. Evan Anwyl is married to Helen, daughter of Ronald Jones of Aberdovey. They have a son, David Evan Anwyl and a daughter Sarah Gray Anwyl. David /Daffyd is married to Catherine Owen of Nantwich.

Sadly the House of Abberfraw appears to be approaching extinction in the recorded male line: Daffyd has only one daughter , Carys Anne, born 2008, his cousin Roger is married with no children, the other cousin Philip is married with two daughters. Unless Daffyd/David can produce a son, the ancient royal house of Gwynedd will become extinct in the male line when David dies- unless there are other male Anywyls still living?. There seem to be quite a few people with this name around, but I don't know if these people are related to the royal Anwyls?

Claiming the Welsh Throne in the female line is unrealistic as this violates Welsh native law (refer James Frankcom), and anyway, there are thousands of people who can claim descent from the Welsh princes through the legitimate female line- including myself. Only those men who can claim a recorded male line of descent from the princes of Gwynedd can seriously claim the Welsh Throne. Only the Anywl family of Tywyn can show documented descent from the native Princes of Gwynedd in the male line.

[donald h]

i find this very intriguing subject being that i have in my family tree williams salisbury wynn lewellin gruffyd griffith tudors saxons pictures of the queen and my ancestors where i managed to end up with so much history that seems to be alive still in some other line of the family these are my moms grand parents and i have a ton of family who lived and were born in penrhyn castle and conway and many other places all over wales england germany ireland my mothers 12th grand mother was mary wynn 1542 wales as i know part of the aberffraw legacy

[Cumbricus]

Fascinating topic. Regards to the first post, I think you're mixing Beli Mawr with Coel Hen, who was the last Dux Britannum. None the less, Coel was High King and ancestor to all the Kings of the Northern Kingdoms. Whether Cunedda was one of his descendants we'll never know, but its likely the Meryfn Frych was in some way related, or so Aberffraw liked to prostrate.

Essentially all descendants of Coel were part of the Coeling which is the collective name of his house, dynasty... or whatever you want to call it. Regardless of where Rhodri and his descendants fit into that most of those Northern Kingdom's and their ruling families were either killed or fled to Gwynedd, ending when the Vikings toppled Alt Cut in about 860 i think. (Could be wrong on the dates, but Alt Cut became Strathclyde which eventually became part of a united Scotland).

Also worthy of note is the whole Prince of Wales, and Wales thing full stop. Wales is an English invention, as is the Principality - at the Merthyr Rising for example when asked, the rioters said "We are Cymry". There was also an individual before Henry Tudor who had a much better claim to being King of the Britons and English in the form of Henry V, whos mother was a descendant of Aberffraw herself, and also in all his grace pardoned Owain Glydwr's son.

As i understand it Briton succession is quite simple: Sons have equal claims, even if they're bastards, women cant inherit but their sons can, but the sons would always of priority over the sons of any female heirs. Your ancestry is highly valued in Brythonic culture, there's no such this as a senior line, you either fall in line, stake your claim and win your crown or die trying. It really came down to who had the biggest army essentially - power wrapped in a veil of legitimate claim - hence why Rhodri's sons turned on eachother.

Anyway, a good way to test (If you're curious) your decent is to get a Y- chromosome test. Essentially you should be at least R1b1b2, and assume you should have few genetic matches in Cymry itself if their decent from the Coeling is to be believed. DNA tends to be different by area and because they came from another part of the country its likely they do stand apart from Cymry genetically - slightly anyway.

I've always thought that its not really inherited anyway, its given by the people who follow, much like what happened with Glyndwr. If it was to be inheritable Aberffraw was subordinate to the men of the north who came later, so by that logic they should have stood aside for the "senior lines" of Coel's descendants (Let that be a sign that it didnt work that way :P). If Cymru has its own monarch, it'll be because some one has the political might to swing it with the people and Senedd.