Royalty of Scotland and Ireland

[monos26]

Does anyone have any information on living Irish royals, particularly the McCarthy's?

[betina]

There is a website for all royals in europe on this site http://www3.dcs.hull.ac.uk/public/ge...l/catalog.html including the irish but you must be in good time, because it take some time to load.

best regards Betina

[Splodger]

Originally Posted by monos26

Does anyone have any information on living Irish royals, particularly the McCarthy's?

There are no real direct decendents of the Kings of Ireland. Generaly speaking anyone from Ireland who has Celtic ancestery is decended from a "Royal Clan," however there is no way to trace through the first born decent to find a True Heir to one or other titles.

All the small Kingdoms passed between various families, and the title of High King also passed between different holders, however the most famous was probably O'Neill. I am not familiour with the McCarthy's (are they from the South - now the Republic?). However many other families, such as my own, are all branches of the House of O'Neill. Therefore many Irish familes are decended from the Kings of Ireland, even if they do not share the same family name, they are often all of the House of O'Neill. After the English took over, several powerful princes of Ireland were given English noble titles, however even here many have since died out.

[lamass]

the english took claim to ireland long ago so all the royals have kind of blended into the rest of ireland.

[Aubisse]

Not royal but quite important in irish history, the Fitzgerald family

[Von Schlesian]

Correct.

Currently His Grace Maurice Fitzgerald, 9th Duke of Leinster, Marquess of Kildare, (9th British Viscount Leinster), Premier Duke and Marquess of Ireland.

The title was created in 1766.

[Von Schlesian]

The former Duke (Gerald) passed away last year at the age of 90.

The Dukedom was created by HM George III, making a Ducal line from a family who had been one of the oldest Irish noble families.

[Von Schlesian]

I also understand that the "Kings of Ireland and Leinster" are able to be traced back to 120AD.

The Fitzgeralds were normans who arrived in Ireland in the 11th century. His Grace The Duke of Leinster, also holds peerages of Great Britain and of The United Kingdom. The titles of Duke of Leinster, Marquess of Kildare, Earl of Kildare, Earl of Offlay and Baron Kildare are all within the Irish peerage, whereas the Viscounty of Leinster is a peerage of Great Britain, and the Barony of Offaly is a peerage of the United Kingdom.

[Humera]

I love the book Aristocrats by Stella Tillyard. Its based on the correspondence between the Lenox sisters, great-granddaughters of Charles II. Emily Lennox married James Fitzgerald, Earl of Kildare and later Duke of Leinster. Emily's letters are full of great details about her life in Ireland, her huge family, and her two great homes. The illustrated guide to the TV series is full of beautiful pictures of her homes and of Castletown, the home of Emily's sister Louisa who also married an Irishman, the wealthiest man in Ireland infact, Tom Connolly.

[Mashka]

I have a friend, she's Irish, and she's related to Irish royalty.

[Von Schlesian]

Yes, my Great Great Grandmother, (Mothers, Fathers, Mothers Mother), was a daughter of His Grace Gerald Fitzgerald 5th Duke of Leinster.

[marlene]

I loved the series the Aristocrats as well,there is also a wonderful book to go along with the series.Just an interesting fact to pass along, names that begin with the prefix Fitz designate an illegitimate offspring in the family.So the name Fitzgerald would have originally been held by the first male of illegitimate birth in the Gerald family.

[Melisende]

It is believed that the surname McCarthy derived from Carthach - ie son (mac) of Carthach. That is a name that goes back to a king in 1045. Originally the spelling of the name McCarthy would have looked nothing like it does today.

[Wisteria]

Originally Posted by Melisende

It is believed that the surname McCarthy derived from Carthach - ie son (mac) of Carthach. That is a name that goes back to a king in 1045. Originally the spelling of the name McCarthy would have looked nothing like it does today.

There is an O´Neill family living in Portugal, in the 19th century there was a Jorge O´Neill, Prince of Clanaboy who was a close friend of the King of Portugal. Not that long ago there was a ceremony in Northern Ireland that my cousin attended, with the present member of the O´Neill family, who happens to be from Portugal, was proclaimed head of the clan.
As a McCarthy I am also interested in this family and of course, all to do with Ireland.
I have always heard that Mac means son of whereas O´ means grandson of, or the old Irish equivalent of "von" from the house of. I am always ready to corrected (of course).

[Hereditary Thane]

As an Anglo-Celt with many Irish connections I can perhaps accept that the Norman-English lordship of Ireland effectively mediatised the former ruling royal and princely houses. I am not talking about sept or clan members that are merely adherents and not dynasts. Some of these royal Irish dynasts who were mediatised (not a word used in Ireland may I add) were granted the use of the English royal arms, something that would not have been afforded to defeated inferiors.

In the latter half of the 20th century I believe the Irish government "allowed" the chiefly dynasts the appellation, Serene Highness and Most Serene Highness. The Irish government "withdrew" this privilige following some machinations involving spurious Irish-American "chiefs". Many dynastic Irish families migrated to France, Italy, Spain, Portugal and even South America. Spain's grandest grandees, the Dukes of Alba have kept their Irish and Scots titles. The Dukes of Medina-Celli incorporate the chiefly title The O'Flaherty alongside their ducal suffixes. Strangely enough The Chief Herald of Ireland has no interest in Hibernian royal dynasties other than to rule (in a very English manner) on matters relating to armigers only.

[An Ard Ri]

The O'Conor Don is the current head of the traditional royal family of Connacht who are descended from the last High Kings of Ireland .

The O'Connor Family remained staunchly Roman Catholic during the dark days of Penal Laws & many believe them to have the foremost claimant to the Irish High Kingship.

O'Conor Don - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The present O'Conor Don lives at Clonalis House in County Roscommon,the traditional seat of the old High Kings .

Historic Irish Manor : Clonalis House : Ancestral Home of the O'Conor family

[James Frankcom]

There is some rubbish written on this page! There are at least three potential claimants to the Irish throne. In their own rights they are kings of Connaught, Munster and Ulster respectively.

Desmond O'Conor Don - The O'Conor Don, Prince of Connaught, Chief of the Name is descended through sixty-six generations providing some twenty-seven Kings of Connacht and numerous High Kings of Ireland. His family is the oldest royal family in Europe with perhaps the exception of the Bagrationi Dynasty of Georgia. Desmond O'Conor Don (not to be confused with the singer) lives in England in Sussex. He works in London as the Chairman of the Anglo-Chilean Chamber of Commerce. Clonalis House, the ancient family seat in Ireland, is actually owned by a cadet branch of the family. He is (probably) the most senior of the Irish "chiefs of the name" because he is descended from the LAST High King of Ireland; Rory O'Conor (English spelling). He is also potentially the King of Connácht in his own right.

Other notable members of royal dynasties in Ireland include;

Sir Conor O'Brien. The O'Brien, Prince of Thomond, Chief of the Name, The 18th Baron Inchiquin, 10th Baronet of Leamaneh. He is the principal descendant of High King Brian Ború another important High King from Irish history. He lives in Ireland in his castle to this day and is potentially the King of Munster in his own right.

Hugo Ricciardi O'Neill, The O'Neill, Prince of Tyrone, Chief of the Name, Count of Clanaboy. He is the main claimant to the Uí Néill clan of Ulster (Ulaidh). The O'Neills are descended from Niall Noígíallach aka "Niall of the Nine Hostages" a famous and very powerful Irish high king who terrorised western Britannia in the 5th Century AD at the end of the Roman period. The O'Neill's tended to lead the Irish throughout the later Middle Ages and ultimately were all forced into exile in Portugal following the "flight of the earl's", where they remained until the Carnation Revolution in 1974. They have now returned to Northern Ireland (Ulster). However, the O'Neill's are not all agreed who is the Chief of the Name due to a dispute between different methods of calculating supremacy amongst them; an argument between Tanistry and Primogeniture, I believe. Don Carlos O'Neill "of the Few" - another possible claimant - lives in Spain. Hugo O'Neill is potentially the King of Ulster in his own right.

Finally, spoiling the fun for everyone was the so-called MacCarthy Mór - namely Terence MacCarthy. He skilfully forged documents and deceived the Chief Herald of Ireland leading everyone (including the then President of Ireland) to believe he was His Serene Highness Tadhg V, The MacCarthy Mór, Prince of Desmond and Lord of Kerslawny. This was however proved not to be the case and he was infact descended from a McCartney family from Ulster who were nothing more glamorous than labourers. Terence MacCarthy subsequently "abdicated" and this scandal almost brought the whole house down because the Irish government threatened to withdraw recognition of all the Chiefs of the Name. Nevertheless, the three chiefs aforementioned; O'Conor, O'Brien and O'Neill retained their recognition and have faultless pedigrees.

[James Frankcom]

Originally Posted by Wisteria

There is an O´Neill family living in Portugal, in the 19th century there was a Jorge O´Neill, Prince of Clanaboy who was a close friend of the King of Portugal. Not that long ago there was a ceremony in Northern Ireland that my cousin attended, with the present member of the O´Neill family, who happens to be from Portugal, was proclaimed head of the clan.
As a McCarthy I am also interested in this family and of course, all to do with Ireland.
I have always heard that Mac means son of whereas O´ means grandson of, or the old Irish equivalent of "von" from the house of. I am always ready to corrected (of course).

"Mac" means "son of" in Gaelic (as spoken in Ireland, Scotland and Man) and is traditionally rendered with a lower case "m" e.g. Rory mac Carthy meaning "Rory son of Carthy". In olden times a long list of names would be read out connected by "mac" which would list a person's complete ancestry, e.g;

Rory mac Carthy mac Cathal mac Aodh...ad infinitum.

Females use the version "Nic" which means "daughter of".

The use of "O" or "Ui" before a name does sort of mean "grandson of" but not literally, it tends to mean an ancient common ancestor and unites all the members of a clan or sept, e.g. the Uí Néill or O'Neill's are all the descendants of Naill of the Nine Hostages who lived 1500 years ago.

In Wales they use the word "ap" for the same reason. A very long time ago (before about 800AD) this was usually rendered "map". In the Middle Ages every Welshman was expected to be able to know his name going back nine generations (e.g. nine names connected by "ap") in order to claim title to any land holding. In Welsh, unlike Gaelic, the word "ap" mutates dependant on the whether the name following it begins with a vowel or not. If it begins with a vowel it is rendered "ab". For example;

John ap Goronwy ap Hywel ab Owen...

When Welsh people began Anglicizing their names in the later Middle Ages they often constructed new names using the word ap or ab. Some examples;

ab Owen = Bowen
ap Hari = Parry
ap Hugh = Pugh
ap Richard = Pritchard

The difference between the Gaelic "mac" and Welsh "map" is the basis for linguists referring to Brythonic/Welsh as a "P-Celtic" language and Gaelic/Erse/Irish as a "Q-Celtic" language (to do this they render the "k" sound in "mac" as "maq")

Welsh women used the form "ferch" or "verch" meaning "daughter of".

In Wales they also had clans all descended from a common famous ancestor but in this case they were usually termed "tribes"; there were five royal tribes and fifteen noble tribes in Gwynedd, for example. There were also similar royal and noble tribes throughout all of Britain but the Anglo-Saxons did such a good job in slaughtering them that only the Gwynedd ones are known today.

[brian caudill]

hey von schlesian, i know you posted it 5 yrs ago that you where related to the duke of leinster from a daughter, but i was wonderin how you could your relative be a daughter of the late gerald fitzgerald 5th duke of leinster, when he had only sons?

[Ancient Princess]

There is a genealogy that has come to light that traces directly back to the Ard Righ King Flann Sinna of Meath's daughter Princess Spontana of Crimthann that married into the line of the Royal House of Alpin down through King Alpins second son Donald I of Alpin and continued down through his direct descendents of MacFhingon's. There is a site on ancestry.com called Family Legacy Copyrighted & Registered 2008-2021 All Rights Reserved and a site on myspace called UNITE THE CLANS Deborahs Destiny that was put together by the direct heir of these lines. The detailed genealogy is on both of these sites. The genealogy will be presented to the Lord Lyon Courts in Edinburgh and the Chief Herald in Ireland for examination and approvel. Much attention was paid to finding out if there were other Clan lines that could claim this and from the research of their own proven genealogy's verified by each Chief of the differant Clans (both Irish & Scottish) no one came close to the current heir of MacFhingon. The MacFhingon name would be known today as MacKinnon. The Current Chief of MacKinnon is Madame Anne Gunheild of Antigua Mackinnons and is of a younger indirect line. The elder line however, is the Kilmorie/Mishnish line of MacKinnons and the heir is the owner of the above sites on ancestry and myspace. It will be interesting to see what will happen. Other royal lines came into the Royal House of Alpin, Alpins wife was the direct descendent of King Locene MacFhingon of Picts 645 A.D., Mary Haakonsdatter of Norway (Daughter of King Haakon IV of Norway) married Findanus MacFhingon/MacKinnon Great Elder Grandson of King Donald I of Alpin, MacFhingon's date back to Conn of One Hundred Battles and have a connection to St Columbas father and mother. The genealogy I will post here for you to examine for yourself. It is backed up by Historic Documentation as well as Legal Proofs, Y-DNA Study Markers, Verified by Genealogist and Attorney of the family to be correct and true. It is a very clean line of descent and the heir is the eldest in line left. That is what prompted the journey to have this line examined. It is a line that was around in the time of the Pictish Kings and it continued to King Alpin second son King Donald I of Alpin. It stayed within direct biological elder males till the current heir. Kenneth I of Alpins line stopped at Lulach that was not of original Alpin blood. MacKinnons , however continued silently through the years.