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08-17-2011, 07:56 AM
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Commoner
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: Tbilisi, Georgia
Posts: 50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
So Prince Nuzgar and Prince David both considers themselves Head of the Royal House.An interesting Family!
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Yes but the difference is - HRH Prince Nugzar belongs to royal ancestry and David (son in law) to high-nobiliary branch of non-reigning bagrationi.
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I love Georgia !
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08-18-2011, 03:29 PM
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Heir Apparent
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,668
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Not everybody agrees with you on this issue.
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08-22-2011, 03:25 PM
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Commoner
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: tbilisi, Georgia
Posts: 48
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Patriarch illia II statement (Bagration Mukhraneli as Royal Family of Georgia)
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08-22-2011, 06:04 PM
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Heir Apparent
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,668
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The Patriarch Ilia II recognizes Prince David as Head of the Royal Family.
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08-23-2011, 12:00 PM
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Heir Apparent
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
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"In the first decades of the 1700s, there were three Orthodox kingdoms ruled by different branches of the Bagration dynasty: the kingdom of Kartli, the kingdom of Kakhety, and the kingdom of Imeretia. Kartli: The senior line of the entire Bagration dynasty were the kings of Kartli, and the Bagrations of Moukhrani were junior dynasts of the Kartli line. The Bagrations of Moukhrani were thus genealogically senior to the Kakhety and Imeretia branches within the Bagration dynasty. The Kartli branch was dethroned by Muslim invaders, and King Wakhtang VI of Kartli, with his sons, went into exile in Russia in 1724, without, however, renouncing their rights to the Kartli throne. His male line descendants died out circa 1903, at which point the Bagrations of Moukhrani became the senior representatives of the former royal house of Kartli and heads of the entire Bagration dynasty. Kakhety: The junior royal line of Kakhety remained on its throne and in the 1740s pushed the Turks out of the territory that had once comprised the neighboring kingdom of Kartli. King Theimouraz of Kakhety had married Thamar Bagration, daughter of Wakhtang VI, last reigning King of Kartli; in 1744, with her husband, she had herself proclaimed Thamar II, Queen of Kartli in her own right. Their son, Irakly II, became King of Kakhety and Kartli, uniting them into the kingdom of Georgia in 1762. The Bagrations of Moukhrani, having stayed in Kartli rather than following Wakhtang VI to Russia, remained active dynasts of the newly united monarchy and continued to exercise within the united kingdom of Georgia the hereditary positions (of military commandant of Upper Kartli and of Constable of the Left of Georgia) that they had held under the old Kartli monarchy. Irakly II, as monarch of both Kartli and Kakhety and through his parents a member of both the Kartli and Kakhety lines of the dynasty, showed marked favor to his genealogically senior cousin, Constantine, Prince of Moukhrani. Irakly II’s eldest son and heir, Tsarevich Wakhtang, married Constantine of Moukhrani’s daughter, Princess Kethevan. (Irakly II outlived his eldest son.) In addition, Ivan, eldest son and heir of Constantine of Moukhrani, married Irakly II’s daughter Princess Kethevan Thamar. It was his son-in-law Ivan, future Prince of Moukhrani, whom Irakly II appointed as his plenipotentiary to negotiate the 1783 treaty of friendship with Catherine the Great of Russia. The dynasty of the united Georgian kingdom was, as stated in the text, dethroned in 1801. Imeretia: The Bagrations, Kings of Imeretia, a line junior to the Kartli and Kakhety branches, retained their throne until nearly a decade after the Georgian throne was toppled. Russia had signed a treaty with King Solomon II of Imeretia with provisions similar to the Treaty of Georgievsk but nonetheless dethroned him in 1810. He did not go to Russia afterwards but instead lived his remaining years in exile in the Ottoman Empire. Today: Prince George Bagration of Moukhrani, who traveled from Spain to Tblisi in 1995 with the remains of his grandfather, was the senior male of the royal Kartli line of the Bagrations and thus head of the entire Bagration dynasty. He was recognized in the 1990s as head of the former royal house by the Georgian government and by the patriarch of the Georgian Orthodox Church. He died in 2008 and was succeeded by his son, Prince David Bagration (born 1976). After the collapse of the Soviet Union, historians learned that several members of the Kakhety royal line were still alive and well in Georgia, having survived Stalin. The head of this line is Prince Nugzar Bagration-Gruzinsky (born 1950). In 2007, Patriarch Ilia II, head of the Georgian Orthodox Church, made a public statement advocating a Bagration constitutional monarchy as a means of advancing the development of the nation. This prompted Georgian historians and journalists to analyze the question of who the heir to the throne should be. Less than 18 months later, on 8 February 2009 at Tblisi’s cathedral, Prince David Georgievich Bagration of Moukhrani, head of the Bagration dynasty, married Princess Anna Nugzarovna Bagration (like her husband, also born in 1976), daughter of Prince Nugzar, head of the Kakhety line, thus uniting the two lines of Kartli and Kakhety in a manner similar to the way that the marriage of King Irakly II’s parents united them in the 18th century." (THE RUSSIAN IMPERIAL SUCCESSION)
"Although Mr. Sargis mentions that King David VIII granted his brother Bagrat the province of Moukhrani and installed him as its first sovereign prince, he has not explained the extent to which this branch, despite its sovereign status in Moukhrani, maintained its position as "first Princes of the Blood" within the Kingdom of Georgia. Three consecutive sovereign Princes of Moukhrani acted as Regents of Georgia. And on the death without heirs of King Rostom of Georgia, Wakhtang Bagration, sovereign Prince of Moukhrani, ascended the Georgian throne as King Wakhtang V in 1659 and ceded the throne of Moukhrani to his younger brother, Prince Constantine Bagration, ancestor of all the subsequent Princes of Moukhrani and also of the Grand Duchess Leonida."(THE RUSSIAN IMPERIAL SUCCESSION)
"The son and heir of Georgia’s last King, George XII, was Prince David Bagration. His father had chosen him as his eventual successor, and in 1799 Emperor Paul I of Russia, pursuant to the provisions of the Treaty of Georgievsk, had formally recognized David as heir to the Georgian throne. After Russia annexed Georgia, however, Russian troops brought David Bagration to St. Petersburg, where he was granted a residence and a pension. For several decades, Russia gave him the status of a royal prince and recognized him by the royal title of tsarevich, or crown prince. But, as the policy of Russification advanced, Russia revoked its recognition of David’s royal status and in 1833 placed him and the other Bagrations on the list of Russian nobles, in effect decreeing their demotion from royal rank. Meantime, King George XII’s half-brother, Prince Peter Bagration, having frustrated Russian efforts to capture him in 1801, led an invasion from Persia and seized Kakhety in 1812. He was proclaimed King of Georgia by his followers, but Russian troops regained control of Kakhety in 1813. The monarchist plot to restore the Bagrations, planned in Georgia in the early 1830s and quickly foiled by Russia, sought to place Peter on the throne."(THE RUSSIAN IMPERIAL SUCCESSION)
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08-23-2011, 12:06 PM
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Commoner
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: tbilisi, Georgia
Posts: 48
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Thank you cory very good information soo the head of the royal house its Prince Davit and not varaz ))))
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08-25-2011, 07:17 PM
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Newbie
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, United States
Posts: 5
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Greetings, all! I have to agree with Varaz, as does Burke's Peerage World Orders of Knighthood and Merit (please see the entry on Order of the Eagle of Georgia; it states that the Gruzinski line has a stronger claim). Though Prince David may be genealogically senior, Prince Nugzar is the closest male heir from the last reigning King. Acknowledging Prince David now as head of the royal Bagrationi line would be akin to bringing the Stuarts back in Britain now and ignoring the more recent dynasties of the United Kingdom.
That said, there are some powerful people who seem to support David, including seemingly the Patriarch. Hopefully these people will eventually be open to historical accuracy, which would be support of the Gruzinski line. That said, if a male is born from Prince David and Princess Anna, that would be an amazing development.
Respectfully yours,
Guye
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08-25-2011, 08:21 PM
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Serene Highness
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Saturn, Germany
Posts: 1,310
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To be a legend, you've either got to be dead or excessively old!
Christopher Lee
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08-29-2011, 11:28 AM
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Administrator in Memoriam
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,469
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As the discussion had descended into partisan sniping the thread will remain closed for the short term.
Warren
Administrator
- - - - - - - - - -
The newborn Prince may bring some unity to the Georgian Royal House and to this now re-opened thread.
.
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09-28-2011, 02:09 PM
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Administrator in Memoriam
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,469
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Royal House of Georgia
Confirmed
. . . . . . . . .
The following message was received from member giorgi in Tbilisi, Georgia, a short time ago...
"The Grand Chancery of the Royal House of Georgia is delighted to announce that yesterday evening, on the 27th September 2011 at 10.40 pm
Her Royal Highness The Princess Anna, wife of His Royal Highness The Prince David Bagrationi Mukhran Batonishvili, gave birth to a son,
their first born and heir to the Dynastic Throne.
He will be named and styled as His Royal Highness The Prince Giorgi Bagration Bagrationi.
The birth of the young Prince has been a source of immense joy and happiness to the Royal Family.
Praise be given to God."
.
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09-29-2011, 01:06 AM
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Gentry
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Turku, Finland
Posts: 77
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It’s a joke?
This marriage is not a marriage it’s a manege!
I can’t believe what they decided for this young woman Anna. They acted as they live in Pakistan.
And for the Mukhransky, they belong to the high nobility. There are no controversies for the Georgian people and their Patriarch.
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09-29-2011, 06:32 AM
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Heir Apparent
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
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09-29-2011, 10:24 AM
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Majesty
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: City, Kazakhstan
Posts: 8,009
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Congratulations to the couple!
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09-29-2011, 01:11 PM
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Royal Highness
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: San Francisco, United States
Posts: 1,990
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Congratulations to the parents!
May the little prince have a long, happy, and meaningful life!
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Sii forte.
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09-29-2011, 10:03 PM
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Royal Highness
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: San Francisco, United States
Posts: 1,990
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The birth took place in Madrid, which is where David and Anna are living.
Google Translate
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Sii forte.
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09-29-2011, 10:18 PM
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Aristocracy
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 187
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Fantastic news. The royal house continues to another generation!
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09-30-2011, 08:09 AM
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Aristocracy
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: England, United Kingdom
Posts: 174
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This is brilliant news! Congratulations to the couple, and may the boy live a long and healthy life
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10-01-2011, 11:57 AM
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Royal Highness
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: San Francisco, United States
Posts: 1,990
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Free Georgia to hold conference on restoration of Constitutional Monarchy
2 Aug 2011
The Political Party Free Georgia will start cooperation with the "All Georgians Noblemen's and Gentries Gathering" "The cooperation will be based on the national values. Today the special importance has the consolidation of the national forces. In the Saakashvili's regime the national values are facing danger," - Kakha Kukava declared in the joint statements of these two organizations...
Full article: GHN News Agency
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Sii forte.
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10-01-2011, 02:45 PM
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Serene Highness
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Long Island, United States
Posts: 1,113
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Is there any real possibility of a restoration in Georgia? I find it odd that this royal house doesn't seem to have good relationships with other royal houses.
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Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
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10-01-2011, 09:51 PM
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Aristocracy
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 187
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Like Serbia, it is not an unrealistic prospect and a desirable one given the turmoil Georgia has experienced. But first, the Saakashvili regime will have to fall like his predecessors did.
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