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  #401  
Old 02-26-2023, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
Considering her father is Muslim and the House of Zogu has always been officially Muslim despite many Queens and Crown Princesses being of various Christian denominations, I am a little surprised that she was Christened at all.
Likewise. Not to mention that Albania, where as you pointed out earlier the family have a legallly recognized quasi-official status similar to the Romanian royals, is majority-Muslim. Moreover, Islam requires Muslims to raise their children as Muslims.

I wonder if the Catholic baptism might indicate the couple expects to have a son who will succeed his father to his quasi-official position and so consider Geraldine to be dynastically less relevant.
  #402  
Old 02-26-2023, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Likewise. Not to mention that Albania, where as you pointed out earlier the family have a legallly recognized quasi-official status similar to the Romanian royals, is majority-Muslim. Moreover, Islam requires Muslims to raise their children as Muslims.



I wonder if the Catholic baptism might indicate the couple expects to have a son who will succeed his father to his quasi-official position and so consider Geraldine to be dynastically less relevant.
Princess Geraldine has been called the heir in all the posts I've seen about the christening and have had automatically translated (which could mean that it's not entirely correct). If I remember it correctly the succession under King Zog was "semi-salic" (I think one of his sisters was his heir until he had a son) so maybe she is the heir. Princess Elia is 40 so there might not be more children.
The question of religion in Albania is a bit different from many other countries. From what friends have explained to me for the Albanians being Albanian is more important than what religion you have and I know several in whose families there are several examples of people having married members of another religion.
What puzzles me is that Prince Leka is Muslim, Princess Elia is to my knowledge Orthodox, but Geraldine has been baptized a Catholic.
  #403  
Old 02-26-2023, 02:03 PM
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Several messages referenced that princess Sibilla is responsible for her upbringing as a christian (I assume they mean in the Roman Catholic faith), quite a task if her parents are muslim and Eastern Orthodox. Is anything known about the godfathers background (other than him being a friend of the couple?).
  #404  
Old 02-26-2023, 10:09 PM
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How wonderful that Sibilla is her godmother but why did it take so long for her to be baptized?

It seems she also received the grand cross in two orders (pictured with her on a couch).
Possibly the pandemic paused things.

Geraldine was christened on her paternal grandmother Queen Susan's birthday.
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  #405  
Old 02-27-2023, 07:36 PM
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Is anything known about the godfathers background (other than him being a friend of the couple?).
Thomas Frashëri is the chairman of the Electronic and Postal Communications Authority in Albania and a former advisor the the Albanian Prime Minister.
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  #406  
Old 03-22-2023, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by principessa View Post
Little Princess Geraldine was baptised on 28-01-2023 with Princess Sibilla of Luxemburg as godmother.

https://www.facebook.com/PrincLekaOf...kYM7iFw4vcDJzl
I thought the Albanian Crown Prince was Muslim and his wife was Eastern Orthodox but the children seem to have had a Catholic baptism?

After post I see this was discussed above but it also puzzled me?
  #407  
Old 03-22-2023, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
I thought the Albanian Crown Prince was Muslim and his wife was Eastern Orthodox but the children seem to have had a Catholic baptism?

After post I see this was discussed above but it also puzzled me?
I believe the Royal House did communicate that they wanted a Catholic baptism to stress the multi-religiosity of the Albanian community.

The Roman and the Orthodox Churches fully recognize each other's priests, the validity of the Seven Sacraments (including Baptism) conducted by both Churches and recognize the reality that both Churches sprang from one common “Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”, being one in the same, until 1054 A.D.
  #408  
Old 03-22-2023, 11:21 AM
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I'd also forgotten that Queen Geraldine was a Hungarian Roman Catholic!
  #409  
Old 03-22-2023, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I believe the Royal House did communicate that they wanted a Catholic baptism to stress the multi-religiosity of the Albanian community.
Apparently so.

https://albanianroyalcourt.al/commun...maison-royale/

"The baptism of Princess Geraldine is part of the Royal House's family tradition which has always reflected the multi-confessional character of the country".

https://albanianroyalcourt.al/royal-house/

"An excellent example of religious co-existence is reflected in the Royal Family: The Queen Mother Sadije Toptani was a Bektashi Muslim, King Zog a Sunni Muslim, Queen Geraldine a Catholic, Queen Susan an Anglican. Prince Leka is Muslim and Princess Elia is an Albanian Orthodox."
  #410  
Old 03-22-2023, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
Princess Geraldine has been called the heir in all the posts I've seen about the christening and have had automatically translated (which could mean that it's not entirely correct).
I think your automatic translation is likely to be correct, as an English-language feature article on Leka II last year backs it up:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...narchy/629368/
When I asked about succession, Leka told me he would ask Princess Geraldine, when she turned 18, if she wanted to be his heir. “Legally, according to the Albanian royal constitution, it would go directly to the first male,” he said. But the rules can be fudged, not least because Zog’s laws were overhauled by the Italians, and then the Communists, and the constitution has no legal standing.

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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
If I remember it correctly the succession under King Zog was "semi-salic" (I think one of his sisters was his heir until he had a son)
Under the 1928 constitution of the then-kingdom of Albania, the succession to the throne was male-only:

Quote:
Art. 50. The King of the Albanians is His Majesty Zog I, of the illustrious Albanian family of Zogu.
Art. 51. The Heir to the Throne shall be the King's eldest son. and the succession shall continue generation after generation in the direct male line.
Art. 52. Should the Heir die or lose his rights to the Throne, his eldest son shall succeed.
Should the Heir to the Throne die or lose his rights and leave no son, the succession shall pass to the brother coming after him.
Art. 53. Should there be no Heir to the Throne under articles 51 and 52, the King shall select his successor from among the male members of his family, but the King's selection shall be with the consent of Parliament.
Should the King not use his prerogative, and the succession remain vacant, Parliament shall then select a male member of the King's family as successor to the Throne.
In case no heirs exist in the King's family, or such as may exist are held incapable by a special parliamentary decision taken by a two-thirds majority of the members of the House, Parliament shall select a successor from the line of the King's daughters or sisters, but such successor must be of Albanian origin.
When there are no males in the families above mentioned, Parliament shall select a successor of Albanian origin.
Should the Throne remain vacant, the Council of Ministers shall exercise the Royal powers until the question of the successor is settled.
https://albanianroyalcourt.al/the-albanian-royal-court/
  #411  
Old 03-23-2023, 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post


Under the 1928 constitution of the then-kingdom of Albania, the succession to the throne was male-only:
That I wrote "semi-salic" in my previous post, was my way of saying that I neither remembered more about the succession than that it wasn't salic nor what the definition would be. According to your post it is/was one of cognatic male primogeniture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I'm quoting from the profile of Princess Nafije on the royal website:
"Princess Nafije (1896-1955) married Ceno Bey Kryeziu from Kosova. They had a son, Tati Essad Murad Kryeziu, on whom King Zog bestowed the title “The Prince of Kosova”. He was the heir presumptive until 1939. Prince Tati had a number of official duties in supporting the youth and sports. He held the honorary rank of Colonel of the Royal Guard."
Prince Tati is the little boy in the picture together with his uncle, his mother, his grandmother and some of his aunts.
https://albanianroyalcourt.al/wp-con...of_albania.jpg
  #412  
Old 03-23-2023, 04:06 AM
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But Roman Catholic baptism requires a Roman Catholic upbringing for the child.
  #413  
Old 03-23-2023, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
That I wrote "semi-salic" in my previous post, was my way of saying that I neither remembered more about the succession than that it wasn't salic nor what the definition would be. According to your post it is/was one of cognatic male primogeniture.
I'm not familiar with the term "cognatic male", but I think "Salic" is the usual description for the situation wherein only males in the direct male line were in the line of succession to the throne.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I'm quoting from the profile of Princess Nafije on the royal website:
"Princess Nafije (1896-1955) married Ceno Bey Kryeziu from Kosova. They had a son, Tati Essad Murad Kryeziu, on whom King Zog bestowed the title “The Prince of Kosova”. He was the heir presumptive until 1939. Prince Tati had a number of official duties in supporting the youth and sports. He held the honorary rank of Colonel of the Royal Guard."
Prince Tati is the little boy in the picture together with his uncle, his mother, his grandmother and some of his aunts.
https://albanianroyalcourt.al/wp-con...of_albania.jpg
Thank you, I hadn't seen that paragraph. I'm not sure how to reconcile "He was the heir presumptive until 1939" with the provisions of the 1928 constitution (assuming there is no major error in translation on either page), unless the meaning is that the King intended to select him as his successor with the consent of Parliament pursuant to Article 53 in the absence of a legal heir to the throne.
  #414  
Old 03-23-2023, 01:31 PM
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But Roman Catholic baptism requires a Roman Catholic upbringing for the child.
I haven't read anywhere that Princess Geraldine was NOT going to be brought up Roman Catholic. I doubt the baptism was just for show.
  #415  
Old 03-23-2023, 01:40 PM
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But Roman Catholic baptism requires a Roman Catholic upbringing for the child.
It requires a Christian upbringing for the child and the mother is a Christian.
  #416  
Old 03-24-2023, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It requires a Christian upbringing for the child and the mother is a Christian.
My parish says that unless the baptism is done in an emergency(imminent death, for example) the parents must agree to have the child raised Catholic. They do not need to be Catholic themselves.

Edited to add: Cannon law 868 says the best attempt must me made to raise the child Catholic.
  #417  
Old 03-24-2023, 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Noble Consort Ming View Post
My parish says that unless the baptism is done in an emergency(imminent death, for example) the parents must agree to have the child raised Catholic. They do not need to be Catholic themselves.

Edited to add: Cannon law 868 says the best attempt must me made to raise the child Catholic.
How to match this with the fact that Catholics already recognize any baptism done with water (pouring or full immersion) with the proper Trinitarian formula to be valid? Protestants or Orthodox who convert to Catholicism are not re-baptized.

As the Orthodox Faith has 99% the same principles as the Catholics (but a way deeper mystic feel) all will come well with a proper "Catholic" upbringing of the child. I would not count all the folks whom have a baptism and for the rest give their child a pracitcally full atheist upbringing. The Archbishop will be relieved that at least the child is baptized, in whatever form.
  #418  
Old 03-24-2023, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
How to match this with the fact that Catholics already recognize any baptism done with water (pouring or full immersion) with the proper Trinitarian formula to be valid? Protestants or Orthodox who convert to Catholicism are not re-baptized.

As the Orthodox Faith has 99% the same principles as the Catholics (but a way deeper mystic feel) all will come well with a proper "Catholic" upbringing of the child. I would not count all the folks whom have a baptism and for the rest give their child a pracitcally full atheist upbringing. The Archbishop will be relieved that at least the child is baptized, in whatever form.
Yes, the church recognizes any trinitarian baptism even if done by a lay person but does not consider those so baptized to be Catholics until they choose to convert. It just means they do not have to be baptized again.

You don't know if the the archbishop is relieved and cannot really speak for him. If canon law means nothing to you that is your business but it means something to many people.

Many people do not like the idea of religious ceremonies being done simply for show. In this case however I believe and hope that the couple intend to raise their daughter as a Catholic, the faith of the great grandmother she is named after.

In some parts of the world there is strife between the Catholic and Orthodox faiths so to say they are 99% the same over simplifies the matter. There are some major theological differences that happen to be important to members of both faiths.

But I realize you just HAVE to be right about everything so I will step away from this conversation. I do not agree with what you're saying and frankly I'm not sure you even agree with what you're saying. You just want to be right and have the last word. So go ahead and have it.
  #419  
Old 03-27-2023, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Noble Consort Ming View Post
But I realize you just HAVE to be right about everything so I will step away from this conversation. I do not agree with what you're saying and frankly I'm not sure you even agree with what you're saying. You just want to be right and have the last word. So go ahead and have it.
I think those of us who have regularly read Duc's posts will have noted his respectfulness to other posters, even when, unfortunately, that respect is not being reciprocated.

Your explanation of what Catholic church law says on the subject is welcome (I have looked it up and quoted it below for anyone else who may be interested), but for those of us who are not experts on the subject it is a logical, albeit flawed, assumption that the church's recognition of baptisms of other churches might mean similar acceptance of upbringing in those other churches. It is puzzling to me that you describe that natural assumption as "wanting to be right" and "not sure you even agree with what you're saying".

Of course, the entire question is hypothetical, since it is quite possible for Princess Geraldine's parents to have her raised Catholic in spite of not being Catholic themselves, and that seems to be acceptable under the Catholic church rules:

https://www.vatican.va/archive/cod-i...en.html#PART_I.

Quote:
Can. 844 §1. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments licitly to Catholic members of the Christian faithful alone, who likewise receive them licitly from Catholic ministers alone, without prejudice to the prescripts of §§2, 3, and 4 of this canon, and can. 861, §2.

[...]

Can. 851 The celebration of baptism must be prepared properly; consequently: [...]

2/ the parents of an infant to be baptized and those who are to undertake the function of sponsor are to be instructed properly on the meaning of this sacrament and the obligations attached to it. The pastor personally or through others is to take care that the parents are properly instructed through both pastoral advice and common prayer, bringing several families together and, where possible, visiting them.

[...]

Can. 868 §1. For an infant to be baptized licitly:

1/ the parents or at least one of them or the person who legitimately takes their place must consent;

2/ there must be a founded hope that the infant will be brought up in the Catholic religion; if such hope is altogether lacking, the baptism is to be delayed according to the prescripts of particular law after the parents have been advised about the reason.
In terms of religious duties, it would seem to me that the problem is not so much with Princess Geraldine as with Crown Prince Leka, since he is not fulfilling his responsibility as a Muslim to pass the Muslim faith on to his child.
  #420  
Old 03-28-2023, 02:32 AM
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I believe the Royal House did communicate that they wanted a Catholic baptism to stress the multi-religiosity of the Albanian community.

The Roman and the Orthodox Churches fully recognize each other's priests, the validity of the Seven Sacraments (including Baptism) conducted by both Churches and recognize the reality that both Churches sprang from one common “Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”, being one in the same, until 1054 A.D.
Many say High Church Anglicanism/Anglo Catholicism is simply "Rome without the Pope" but that doesn't change the fact that in the last 500 years some major theological and ideological differences have occurred, even though it's still one of the closest strands of Christianity to RC and the liturgy is very similar. Go back 1000 years and there are incredible schisms! That's why they split in the first place. And the liturgy is very different. There are large political and theological schisms within Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism as well. It's very simplistic to say that it doesn't matter because for 1000 years they were the same thing because everyone still uses certain ancient creeds. And I'm someone who *wishes* the Church Universalis would actually stop pointless bickering.

Whilst I understand the family's desire to appeal to all sectors of the Albanian people, I question how it's going to work in practice when neither of her parents or living grandparents are Catholic and most of her godparents won't be around regularly. It all becomes rather hollow (and yes I know many are christened these days just because it's tradition and not because the parents believe), like the family are trying to get points for diversity rather than it being any indication of how Geraldine will *actually* be brought up religiously. The royal equivalent of those who think that liking a post on social media is the same as advocating for a cause. All IMHO of course.
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