Royal and Noble Families of Poland and Lithuania

[Lakshmi]

Beautiful picture, who was this lady?

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

It depends on what relation Diana Lenska is to Elena Poniatowski and if she really is related to Maria Leszczyńska as she claims. If she can provide a family tree with an unbroken line from Maria to herself and secure evidence then she may have a stronger claim than the Poniatowkskis but I doubt it.

As Maria Leszczyńska only ever was married to the king of France, all her male line descendants were Bourbons and princes of France. IIRC the male-line of Louis XV. died out in 1883 with the death of the duc du Berry, leaving only a daughter.

If we go for the semi-salic line of Maria Leszczyńska, then this goes via Charles X. - Charles, duc du Berry - Louise Marie, through marriage duchess of Parma. She had a son, duke Robert I. From Robert I. the line should go via Xavier to Carlos Hugo, the present claimant to Parma, husband of princess Irene of the Netherlands and from him sometime in the future to prince Carlos Javier, the eldest son.

I can't see where this Diana Lenska fits in with the Bourbons?

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

And of course, Poland almost got a new Royal Family in the 30s in the shape of George and Marina of GB. Hitler put pay to that little plan but it's interesting that today's Duke of Kent could have been King of Poland.

Plus there was a Habsburg-archduke, Karl Albrecht, who wanted to become king of Poland - of the "Królestwo Regencyjne" - the "regent's kingdom of Poland" which existed during WWI from 1916 to 1918. Emperor Franz Joseph supported his claim, as did Wilhelm I and other kings but when Karl I. ascended the Habsburg-throne, he stopped the proceedings. None-the-less, archduke Karl Albrecht stayed in Poland after 1918, took on the name Karol Olbracht Habsburg-Lotaryński and married a Swedish commoner, thus loosing his title of archduke. In 1949 Otto von Habsburg created him prince of Habsburg-Altenburg.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine

As Maria Leszczyńska only ever was married to the king of France, all her male line descendants were Bourbons and princes of France. IIRC the male-line of Louis XV. died out in 1883 with the death of the duc du Berry..

Right year, but it was the Comte de Chambord (Henri V), the son of the duc du Berry, who was the last of his line.

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by Warren

Right year, but it was the Comte de Chambord (Henri V), the son of the duc du Berry, who was the last of his line.

You're right, I was talking about him, the brother of Louise Marie of Parma.

[chaz]

,The lady has included spurious information in her article. The Lithuanian pagans did not worship snakes as the lady states,without attribution. The Lithuanian pagans revered the forces of nature as personified by various gods and goddesses. Perkunas the god of storms, Saulius god of the sun, and Perkunetele goddess of rain and fertility. I suggest the lady read THE BALTS by Marya Gimbutas, Praeger publishers. CHAZ Szlachta Noble

[chaz]

The population of Lithuania was not Ruthenian. The population of Lithuania has always been Lithuanian, Balts. The reconquest of Poland-Lithuania had its first success against the Teutonic Knights in the year 1411 with the recapture of the city of Dobrzyn. The battle of Grunewald was in 1453 when the Knights were totally defeated and thereafter became vassals of the Polish Crown.

The Jagiellonians were the the last hereditary monarchs of Poland the line went extinct in the 16th century. King Sigismund Augustus was the last of the Jagielonnian monarchs and died without legitimate issue. Thereafter the monarchy became elective,any Polish noble was eligble to be put forward as a candidate in the Sejm. Any Noble in the Sejm could exercise the Liberum Veto and block the candidate for the Crown of Poland, unless said candidate received unanimity he would not be elected. If the factions for any candidate (if more than one candidate) were large enough they could form confederations and settle the matter militarily.

At the time of Jagielo- Wladislavs ascension to the throne of Poland-Lithuania the Vatican refused to recognize Lithuania as a kingdom in spite of her military power, because Jagielo refused to forcibly convert the Lithuanian people to Christianity.

The Poniatowskis were raised to the monarchy by Russian Autocrat Catherine at the time of the first partition of Poland. WIKIPEDIA cannot be trusted ,anyone can change anything there hence Poniatwski as heirs to the throne of Poland.

I believe there were no Czartoryskis who were King of Poland.

Titles of Nobility were eliminated in the 16th century. Excepting the title Prince. The Title Prince in Poland after the end of hereditary monarchy was merely the highest rank among Nobles.

The too liberal rules of inheritance contributed to Polands downfall. In the days before individual titles of nobility were abolished, every member of the family bore the title, male and female alike,afterward in The Polish Nobles Republic every person born in a noble family received the status NOBLE. As you can see eventually nobles became the majority of the population. And need I mention the Liberum Veto?

As beautiful and famous as she may be, Rula Lenska is not a Countess. There are no more Counts in Poland, just as there are no heirs to the Throne. While her ancestors may have borne the Title Woiewoda,all she is now is another Sclachetny Pani.

Tracking Polish Nobles is rather easy (in the SZLACHTA the Polish equivilent of BURKES PEERAGE in the UK).

[chaz]

Battenburg was changed in fear of the rampant germaniphobia of the time just as was von Saxe Coburg to Windsor. Chaz

[chaz]

This may be lese majesty , but does anyone really want the Tsars back?

[chaz]

I now continue with my narrative History of Poland: The period we now enter, was the most fractious, draining and bloody until 1939. It has been called "The Deluge." Part of the Thirty Years War. It pitted the Polish Nobility against Sweden and themselves. King Sigismund III Vasa King of Poland,and Sweden and was interested in expanding Swedens influence in the southern Baltic region, two scions of the house of Vasa were put up as candidates for the Polish Throne Karl Gustav Vasa was a Lutheran. His brother, Johan who was the Elector of Saxony, and had converted to Catholicism to appeal to the Polish Nobility also changed his name to Jan Casimir, to further appeal to them. Amongst the supporters of Karl Gustav was Grand Hetman, Prince Janusz Radziwill of Kedaini, Lithuania and Commander Lithuanian military forces. His kinsman Boluslav Radziwill conspired with Prince Janusz in the upcoming treachery . (more presently)Chaz

The Cosacks were a heterogeneous group made up of Ukrainians, Tartars i.e. (Mongols), Ruthenians and Turks. Their main occupation, was warfare. These superb and ruthless warriors began a revolt in the year 1648. The revolt commenced with the killing of Polish Nobles their overlords in the Ukraine,(since the 14th century)they also began murdering Jews whom the Lithuanians and Poles had granted asylum from the Inquisition in Jagielonian times. The Cosacks had it all their way for a time until the Polish armies arrived,at that time the Cosacks under the leadership of Ataman Bogdan Kmelnitski retired to the Saich (a wild nether region of steppe and swamp to the south. At the very same time the problems with the succesion were exacerbating. Next instalment, War with Sweden Chaz

How did tiny Lithuania come to control such vast areas of land? Actually it was by default, Duke Svitragaila and the forces under him were drawn up preparing to do battle with Tartar forces under Batu Khan near the Vorksla river. The Mongol Tartars had just received a message that the Great Khan had died in Chinas Forbiden City. Batu was a grandson of Temujin (Ghengis) and wanted to hurry back to guarantee that his interests were represented. Batu broke camp and left the scene. Svitrigaila was now in possesion of Ukraine,Volhynia, Podolia and Ruthenia. This made tiny Lithuania a powerful nation and an attractive subject for the dynastic union with Poland. Chaz

[Alastair_r]

Anyone know anything about Mikush Sapieha ? X

[Marengo]

From this wikipedia site:

Mikush Sapieha (1966- ) a.k.a. "Michael Sapieha"; is a TV and movie actor (Operation Tango, 1999). He took part in the shows Australian Princess and American Princess as the "secret" undercover prince.

Mikush's father, prince Jan Sapieha-Rozanski remarried in the 80-ties with princess Cristina of Brazil (daughter of prince Pedro Gastao of Brazil and Princess Delores of the Two Sicilies); Cristina is a cousin of the King of Spain. You can fuind the genealogy of the family here. I think one of Mikush halfsisters, princess Paola appeared on Brazilian television.

The grandmother of Crownprincess Mathilde was a princess Sapieha, so the two must be related, though she is from the second branch of the family, the Sapieha-Kodenski.

[chaz]

Having allready seized Pomerania, the Swedish King continued his assault on the Polish lands, by attacking the crusader vassal states of East Prussia and Livonia(now Latvia) . The Teutonic Knights had styled themselves, Knights of the Cross, and after the Knights of the Cross had captured and converted the Livonans to Christianity,they were styled Knights of the Sword. At this time Poland was still preoccupied with the Cossack revolt, and not doing well there, having been defeated in two large battles. But then a hero arose,in the person of Prince Jeremy Wisnieowecki a Ruthenian Prince still loyal to the Polish Republic. Wisnieowecki and his armies would continue his defense, almost all alone, from his stronghold fortress of Bzaraz, during this period. (next Carl Gustavus assaults Lithuania)

At the time of Poland's greatest peril the weaker surrounding states seized the opportunity to attack the Polish-Lithuanian Republic. Thus it was that the Tsar of Muscovy invaded Lithuania, and sacked Vilnius. Grand Hetman Janusz Radziwill , who was charged with the defense of Lithuanian proper did nothing. Eventually Muscovy was able to wrest White Ruthenia(now called Belo Russ) from the Rezpospolita's grasp. (the name Lietuva, Lithuaninian language name of the country means Three Towers)

Carl Gustav of Sweden commanded the most advanced military forces of the period(17th century). His troops the best trained, best equiped troops in Europe. They came with artillery which was the most advanced, included field guns, siege guns and mortars. This is what the Poles and Lithuanians, of the Rezpospolita must contend with. Polish arms and armaments were However, more suited to the previous century. The forces of the Rezpospolita were more accustomed to conflicts primarily between light cavalry units, armed with sabres and other small arms, while there were artillery pieces they too were of an antique nature. This unequal struggle was about to begin in earnest.

[chaz]

NOTE; While there were thousands of heroes in the Rezpospolita.Limitations of time and space, make it incumbent upon me to name only the TRAITORS.

We have witnessed the treachery of Prince Boleslaw Radziwill and Grand Hetman Prince Janusz Radziwill,in not defending Lithuania from the depradations of Tsar Alexei of Muscovy,their traitorous acts will continue throughout the period called the"Deluge". But luckily Janusz would die before his schemes bore more fruit. All the same Prince Boleslaw would continue his treachery,in support of Palatine of Zweibrucken, King of Sweden Carl Gustav Vasa.

To counter some of this page 3 muck,I must tell you that even the Poniatowskis, elevated to the throne by Autocrat of all the Russias Catherine,were elected in the Sejm. This happened because the Polish Nobility would have revolted if it had been otherwise,Catherine ,what ever else she was, was an astute and very shrewd monarch, the last thing she would have wanted was revoltion so close to her borders. NOW prove me wrong, but come with sources! Any Poniatowski nominated and elected by the Sejm were elected becaue they were Polish!

[chaz]

In the interest of accuracy I must ask you to disregard the parentheticaly enclosed sentence ( "next,Carl Gustav assaults Lithuania" ) in POST 93. My appologies!

[chaz]

The Swedish forces under Carl Gustav entered Mazovia from East Prussia and Livonia, their path having been cleared by additional treachery. Vice-Chancellor Radziejowski, who had broken with King Jan Casimir,(who is always described as weak and vacillating,and was cowering in Saxony) encouraged Carl Gustav's territorial ambitions against the Rezpospolita. Every where within the Republic the shouted word WOIJNA! War! was heard amongst the Nobles. Palatine Opalinski another traitor brought about the surrender to Carl Gustav of all of Great Poland. Warsaw was occupied on the 8th of Sept. 1655 by Swedish troops.

[chaz]

I have discussed Lithuania's name as meaning Three Towers, actually this was represented by a symbol called a Tamga. An ancient pictographic writing system of the Balts.(many Polish Arms bear Tamga as Figures on their Fields) This is what was submitted to the Papacy, as representing Lithuania for the purpose of creating a flag for Lithuania. But the Papacy misinterpreted it (to be kind) presenting Lithuania with a flag, with an illustration of a conventional,European style castle with three turrets. This angered the Lithuanians, but they eventually would accept it as one of their nations flags. But in the meantime created another flag showing, a Knight wielding a broadsword, in medieval style armour, but no helmet and with blond hair, on a white warhorse slightly rearing on a red field. This became Lithuania's "official flag" the one to be seen beside the Polish Royal White Eagle flag for centuries to come.

[chaz]

Originally Posted by chaz

Battenburg was changed in fear of the rampant germaniphobia of the time just as was von Saxe Coburg to Windsor. Chaz

Not Battenburg but Battenberg. Sorry!

[magnik]

Chaz my dear, our fellow Sigismund August was the last king of P-L from the Jagiellonian dynasty. But I wouldn't agree with that. Don't forget about his younger sister Anna Jagiellonka. On Dec 13 1575 she was proclaimed on Warsaw's Old Town Market Place King (second woman with this title) of Poland and Grand Duke of Lituania. Next day szlachta agree for that and give Stefan Batory for a husband. On May 1 1576 both Anna and Stefan were crowned in Wawel Cathedral.

[chaz]

Dzienkujie! Magnik; I did not know about Anna Jagiellonka, I did know Stephan Bathory, was elected and sat as King. I hope,I am never too old to learn more about Poland's history.